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The John Cena debate
Topic Started: Oct 30 2006, 08:24 AM (2,385 Views)
Nubochanozep
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I thought that it had enough new content in it to bring it over here...

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

zOMG! Hi guys! You might remember me. Essentially, there were some points from both sides that I disagreed with so I'll just yabber on about them for a while, after all, I have some time to fill in. Enjoy!

"Stormy"
 
Please, no more Cena topics. I believe there was a hate Cena thread that died out awhile back, but please no more Cena topics, you can read the reason why nobody likes him in the support Cena threads.


I remember you. I remember you acting like a bit of a jerk when I was here last time. I guess things haven't changed, what with your discouraging decent discussion because it's been done before. Well done.

"Brownmania"
 
He is simply a joke.

He doesn't do anything on the mic except for cheap, juvenile jokes.


Not having watched wrestling for a few weeks now, I can't help but say that I don't know if he's resorted to doing this all the time thoug. I do recall from watching wrestling that he did do that, but it was perfectly acceptable. He's a rapper, he's a white rapper, it's natural for him to insult people like Lita and Edge in the way he does. I don't see any problem in that. What I do see a problem with, is the juvinille part to a certain degree. As a rapper, he shouldn't be a toned down wrestling who appeals to the kiddy's who wouldn't have been allowed to watch Stone Cold during the attitude era. He should be at that level, to not only provide entertainment for the teenagers and adults that want the raunchy stuff, but to become a realistic interpretation of character which he is a shell of. I personally guarantee that there's not a single white rapper in the world who is anything like Cena, and that's where the problem lies. Sure, you could go off on a false little line of rhetoric and waddle up some crap about him being original, but for his gimmick it simply won't sell. He's a white rapper that needs to act more like a white rapper, and less like some watered down cordial that appeals to five year olds. I'm not advocating attitude V2, I'm simply saying that his character is one that should be at full blast, rather than a simple crappy shell which is what he was last time I watched wrestling.

"Brownmania"
 
He is not nearly as popular or talented as any former WWE champion and yet has been allowed to hold the belt for the better part of a year.


Ah, I agree in full. Well, I'll give a reason though, and that reason is for the product to remain fresh. Cast your mind back a few years ago with the elderly wrestling commentators like Apter and Kimble were blabbering back and forth about how they yearned for the day of long title reigns. Now look at Cena and realise how incorrect they were. Yes, I was also looking foward to seeing longer title reins but not anything like this. If Cena could remain fresh instead of being a stale, watered down piece of crud that he is now then I'd probably have little problem with him being a long serving champion, but he's the antithesis to all of that. He's not fresh, he's a bore and it's not acceptable to have the title on him for such a lengthy period of time.

The world title is something that we need to watch the product for, and when the bulk of the audience becomes disillusioned with the champion who's meant to be the reason why we watch, and that he's a bore, and that's he's dry, and that he's not exciting or offering any new directions then there's a problem and it needs to be cleared up.

"Brownmania"
 
John Cena is a taint, not just in the sense of "a stain on professional wrestling", but the anatomical area between the anus and genitals.


Once again, I agree that he will be a taint, but I think that's a result of the two things I just went over.

"Superman"
 
Whether u hate Cena or like him it doesn't matter. Get used to the fact he will be Champion, and get used to Orton having it also, Besides Randy Orton, John Cena has the best potential and best career ahead of him.


That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Why the hell should I, as a paying customer (or I used to be, but I gave up) be forced to watch this pathetic excuse of a wrestling drone around like a robot every week. I shouldn't. Maybe you can sit there sucking on your drink bottle and not pipe up and complain about it, and defend the tripe that we see week after week, but I certainly won't. In fact, I got so fed up with this complete crap that I've stopped watching. I don't regret it, and I don't hesitate to say that Cena was the absolutel main reason why it became stale enough to not watch wrestling anymore. To not complain would be to become a lethargic moron who does no good for the world of wrestling, and who sits there as a slave to the WWE with no hope of improving the product that YOU have an opportunity to influence. Well done Superman. Aside from that, you provided no evidence to back up any of your claims.

"enervator"
 
I've been watching wrestling for twenty years, and I've been a fan of numerous guys like Hogan, Rock, Angle, Austin, Bret Hart, and the list goes on and on, and as much as I've enjoyed them I can also admit that all of them have, at one time or another, done things that absolutely suck.  That being said, I still consider myself a fan.  With Cena fans everything just seems so forced that I simply can't believe there's any sincerity behind it.  I get the impression that a lot of you truly believe that every move the man makes is perfect, and every word out of his mouth is golden, and it's almost like you believe that saying anything otherwise doesn't make you a "true" fan.  You're wrong.


As you alluded to, the problem is that they don't justify a SINGLE thing that they say. They live in their own fantasty land where everything they say is rock solid, and their perceived logic is impenetrable. In reality, it's the polar opposite. Cena fans are generally wild douchebags.

"jinxed"
 
I totaly agree with you we suppose to like cena( and many fans do , but I think inside all fans just want to buu him for being a bad wrestler and not changing into heeler) ....and we are suppose to probebly hate orton for being so cockie but I like his style( and his rkos)....but you just wait....then orton gonna lay hands on that damn cena I gonna chear him (you can bet your shiny *** I will ,... no offense there)


Therin lies a major problem folks. Why should I, as a fan, be forced into liking or disliking character based in thin stereotypes and poor characterisations? This is an artform that demands deep portrayals of character to overcome the crap that we see week after week. That's why Cena is stale, because he's a boring, one dimensional, unhumourous, hackneyed, cliched piece of crap.

"TruFruSknickenorsomethinglikethat"
 
I'm not a Cena fan, but I do think Cena haters are just petty. They are bunch a snobbish wrestling junkies who truly thinks that WWE could put anyone (by anyone I mean the IWC's favorite Jericho and to lesser degree Christian)over. To certain extent they can, but the presentation has to be done just right. Cena haters- Jericho & Christian would have been terrible champions.


If this is the stuff you come up with, you're an idiot. Yes, I'm an idiot because I hate a certain type of wrestler and come up with credible reasons as for my hatred. Well done son. If Cena is anything to go by, it's a good indication that the average 12 year old fan of the WWE is a highly impressionable audience (which it is) that can have one dimensional hacks like Cena shoved down their throat, with little resolve as to how to overcome it. Cena's presentation was horrible, that's why he was being booed. He wasn't being booed (originally) because we're all mindless jerks as you seem to think. Yeah, the majority joined in late last year for whatever reason and then left when he lost the title - they're the idiots. The rest of us? Not so.

As for Christian and Jericho, yeah, you're right. I mean, they were great wrestlers with a tonne of skill who could talk brilliantly, draw people into their DEEP characters and captivate audiences without mindless drones following whichever POV the bulk is subscribing too. Yeah, they would have been terrible champions, because they would have been pretty stable and reliable instead of tha champion who acts like a face and gets booed so he can't get a word in over the audience while speaking. You've got the right idea there. Nice one.

Quote:
 
4. He's brought back and brought in a decent fanbase. Business has been up for WWE since he's been champ.


Yeah, and that happens to co-incide with the return of DX, oh, and there's the fact that he was champ during last year and the first half of this year which was some of the lowest rated RAW's in quite a while. Yeah, he's certainly been the catalyst for that brilliant spike. Thanks John.

Quote:
 
I'm sorry, that I don't take "wrestling" too seriously. It is "staged" and there is no legitimacy (Sweet Chin Music?) just demand. John Cena unfortunately needed Eddie G. to die to get his merchandise bumped off from the Top Ten, and even with Hogan and DX taking the top spots now, John Cena is dominating the rest of the list. Am I satified with the WWE as a whole? No- Cruiserweight division stinks. Both Tag Divisions are weak for no good reason. The mid-card titles are in disarray. The Women's Division is going to blow when they find out that Mickie James is going to be a terrible face. ECW is starting to tank because of that stupid "rechristening" storyline. (They should have waited for at least Summerslam to give RVD the ECW title. Edge would have been better champion/spokesman for the relaunch). However, Cena ain't the problem.


What bullcrap. Sure, all those problems you listed do exist, but Cena still IS a problem. Just because there are other problems isn't a reliable defense for this poor excuse of a champion.

Quote:
 
As oppose to Diesel, Psycho Sid, and old Bob Blacklund.


STOP DOING THAT, it doesn't work! Jeez, comparing Cena to other wrestlers is not a reliable way to defend him. So what, The Rock didn't have a superb moveset, but he was still popular! He had a decent character which didn't get stale, which changed semi-oftenish and had brilliant mic skills and the ability to captivate an audience during his matches, because of his work elsewhere. Cena on the other hand, sucks everywhere and isn't a captivating champion in the least. His wrestling isn't exciting, his character is a boring one dimensional target for 2 year olds, his mic work could be good but it isn't, and he's patronising for fans who got to see the wonders of the attitude era. He's a giant crock of crap. Comparing him to other crocks of crap is not a defense.

Quote:
 
Lastly, it doesn't matter if Cena's fanbase is comprised of children and teenage girls- it is a fanbase. What is the point of pointing out such a distinction if weren't trying to debunk his prestige? It may not have been direct insult, but it was an implied one. He's the best guy to be the company face. Mick Foley doesn't wrestle regularly. Triple H is good, but some of the things he's been involved in has given him black mark. After that? Who else? Batista to a certain degree. You can give HBK a title for story purposes but no one in the mainstream is interested in a pro "wrestler" who looks not to different than run-of-a-mill second baseman. Edge is OK (He should have been ECW champ). Unfortunately, we loss Angle- whose better than Edge but not quite Triple H. And finally, The Big Show (great job he's doing for ECW).


God you're annoying, and you're actually putting me on the same side as Stormy for once. What bullcrap you come out with. You're about as foward moving as George W Bush in respect to wrestling. You look toward your little established champs as a way to give Cena your vote to keep him in place. I want you to use your brain and cast your mind back to the day when they created talent, rather than being like you and relying on the established pieces of crap that we're doing now with Cena. Think back to how Foley, The Rock and Austin were established in the face of waning stars like Hart and Michaels, and look at the difference between the two groups. Cena is a horrible wrestler who can't stand up to Michaels and Hart who has the benefit of following the most popular period of wrestling. He's a down trodden piece of garbage who can't compare, and he needs to be replaced (for the reasons listed). We shouldn't be like you and look toward the boring established stars who were shoved down our throats so that the little teenage girls will become his fanbase. No, it should be natural. Cena is anything but a natural champion who's meant to be a face.

Quote:
 
I'm sorry Stormy if you are totally oblivious to the cheers he gets. Does he get mixed reactions? Yes, in NYC, Chicago, Philaedelphia, and other snobbish, mainly East Coast locations who think still "The Attitude Era" isn't dead. It is. Move on.


Wow, now there's some good debating. Real good. Has it occured to you, that THESE AREAS ARE THE HEART OF THE WWE! For Christ's sake buddy, these are the most populus areas of the US who happen to be the areas where the WWE originated from, and where the bulk of the WWE's audience is and you're dismissing their opinion because of a few thinly veiled stereotypes?

Quote:
 
Stone Cold- he was heel that happened to be fighting THE HEEL which made him a relative "face".


A relative face? BULLCRAP! Apologise for that remark right now. Stone Cold doesn't deserve that shabby treatment from you. Look, I'm over you. You bring nothing to the table.
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BrownMania
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Yes I read that early this morning over there. I must say I agree with everything he said; though I think Nebuchanezzar may be a little harsh toward his opponents :lol:

I'll also agree with the detractors who say people like myself are just living in the past and clinging to the Attitude Era; yes I am clinging and I have every right to do so. It doesn't mean I don't embrace many of the talents and stories that WWE has pushed since WrestleMania X-Seven (mind you I hardly watched since then and have only really picked it up again since Cena wrongly defeated Triple H at WrestleMania 22).

Just because the Attitude Era is over doesn't mean we have to accept this embarrassment for our champion. "He's a fighting champion" they say, well, yes he is a fighting champion. But out of the ridiculous number of successful title defenses he's had, name me one memorable match that he helped carry. I downloaded WreslteMania 21 several weeks ago since I had not seen it before; I can safely say that when Cena won the title I've never seen a more underwhelmed crowd.

Champions who are allowed to keep a title as prestigous as that of the WWE, should be required to have a memorable match at WrestleMania; one that isn't remembered for either dead heat or chants of "Fuck you, Cena!".

I say it all the time within the IWC, and I'll say it again. John Cena is the worst WWE champion in history.
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4400TVJunkie
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All hail King Booker!
I think the problem lies in the people who are arguing over Cena. You guys clump each other into black and white categories and can't (or simply refuse to) except each other's arguments. Then you resort to name-calling like that's supposed to make your argument sound even better.

I'm not really sure why you posted this. People like Cena and always will. People dislike Cena and always will. Grow up and accept it.
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_DL_
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BURN IT DOOOWWNNNNNNNN!
All Cena hate is unfounded. It's not like he has any REAL control of his character, everyone who bashes him is just a fool IMO.
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4400TVJunkie
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All hail King Booker!
Everyone has a right to dislike a certain wrestler, regardless of his stance. It's perfectly normal that people would dislike Cena because it comes down to personal preferences. But to think ranting and raving on messageboards with people who love him just as passionately is gonna change anything, is foolish.

If all Cena marks are supposedly stupid little 12 year olds ( :rolleyes:) who don't know any better, then why waste your time and effort arguing with them? Especially at a place like TV.com? It seems a little silly to me. Come to another forum I go to and hang with the big smarky debaters and see how your arguments hold up.
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Nubochanozep
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4400TVJunkie
 
I think the problem lies in the people who are arguing over Cena. You guys clump each other into black and white categories and can't (or simply refuse to) except each other's arguments. Then you resort to name-calling like that's supposed to make your argument sound even better.

I'm not really sure why you posted this. People like Cena and always will. People dislike Cena and always will. Grow up and accept it.


Yes, you're right there 4400 thanks for clearing that up. I was so incorrect. Yes, the problem lies in people telling others why they hate a wrestler when their views happen to be fairly well supported. That other guy at TV.com had fairly well supported views of why he likes Cena, I have fairly well supported views about why I don't like Cena. The problem is not that we're all mindless drones who seek to categorise ourselves like you, as the worlds most self righteous wrestling observer seems to think, but rather that we see something on TV and have pretty damn strong opinions about it. If you want to take the easy route and say, "hey, stop being such a whiny baby, sit back and shutup and stop being so damned sided about all this", then by all means do so. I just think that's an awfully weak defense.

Why did I post it? Read the first paragraph and you'll find out why. Yes, I had some time to fill in and felt like posting something at TV.com. I haven't been there since yesterday, but if Brownmania came here just to reply to this post then I guess I must be doing something right. I must be doing something to attract a member to 6SW based on one single post, despite the fact that we each acknowledge that we each have different views.

Quote:
 
Everyone has a right to dislike a certain wrestler, regardless of his stance. It's perfectly normal that people would dislike Cena because it comes down to personal preferences. But to think ranting and raving on messageboards with people who love him just as passionately is gonna change anything, is foolish.


If anything, the only thing that is foolish is people like yourself and D-L who sit there and defend a wrestler based on the notion that IT'S MY OPINION AND THATS ALL THAT COUNTS! Who gives a crap? An opinion can be wrong, and my post was aimed at attempting to debunk any of those opinions. Sure, I could have made a short post that took the same cheap ass route as you've just displayed then, but that would be the fooolish thing to do (as opposed to what you said). No, I looked at Cena and his fans and went on and on about why I disagree with them. If anything, it's a lot less foolish than hiding beneath the excuse that an opinion is an opinion.

Quote:
 
If all Cena marks are supposedly stupid little 12 year olds ( Rolleyes.gif) who don't know any better, then why waste your time and effort arguing with them? Especially at a place like TV.com? It seems a little silly to me. Come to another forum I go to and hang with the big smarky debaters and see how your arguments hold up.


Jeez, you don't hold much regard for the members of TV.com, do you 4400TVJunkie. And if your beloved forum has about as much weight behind their argument as your little opinionated posts that you've made throughout this thread, then I don't think I should bother.

My beef now, is that you took a post with content and went off on a little tangent whinging about the whole idea of arguing on the internet, because an opinion is an opinion and nothing can change that. That's stupid.
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4400TVJunkie
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All hail King Booker!
Larry, I'm gonna make this quick because I'm too tired to argue.

One, TV.com is not a great forum. I think you, me, and everyone else knows that. There are several people there that are great posters. Others aren't. If you were arguing with an intelligent poster over Cena, good for you. Great job. But I've also seen you respond to the other not-so-great posters and belittle them. All I was saying is why waste your time with them since you're opinons are so correct? That's what is stupid.

Two, I never said your arguments were dumb. I don't agree with a lot them, (or many of your posts for that matter) but that's for another day and time. I said that a lot of Cena haters state their opinions as universally correct but shoot down their opponents views. Cena lovers do it as well. That's why I said opinions are opinions. If that's taking the easy way out, sue me.

Three, I've stated reasons at TV.com why Cena is a good sports-entertainer. To be exact, I listed about 7 or so paragraphs. Does that mean I sweat his balls? Nope. I just defend him when I think he needs defending. Do yourself a favor and look up my post some time. Or maybe that's too much to ask.

Four, that "beloved" forum I go to is just like this one. Different people, different arguments, different opinions, different point of views. I wasn't expecting you to go visit it. I really could care less if you did.

Lastly, I think you hinted in your post that I thought I was this almighty wrestling guru. I've never claimed I was that at all and didn't mean to come off that way. To tell you the truth, I know very little about the wrestling business because I'm not affiliated with it. I don't know what goes on in the production meetings. I don't know how to book matches. I'm not a smark. Most things I've learned about it came from you guys. So I don't know where you get off thinking that I think I'm the "worlds most self righteous wrestling observer". I think that's just another case of you wanting to insult someone to make yourself feel important.
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Nubochanozep
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Yes, you're right once again. I have developmental problems so I go on the internet to overcome those problems by insulting people like you. THANKYOU 4400TVJUNKIE FOR CLEARING THAT UP! LETS B FRENDS!

Now that unpleasantness is behind is, let me reply and I'm sure you'll do the same.

Quote:
 
Two, I never said your arguments were dumb. I don't agree with a lot them, (or many of your posts for that matter) but that's for another day and time. I said that a lot of Cena haters state their opinions as universally correct but shoot down their opponents views. Cena lovers do it as well. That's why I said opinions are opinions. If that's taking the easy way out, sue me.


That's not what you were talking about, you were talking directly to me. You were claiming that I shoot down views, which I do, but I gave reasons for my belief's. Here, allow me to do so again...

Cena currently has no captivating character

Cena, as a characterless wrestler is a boring person to watch

His wrestling is subpar

He isn't acheiving full potential on the mic

He's not universally liked or disliked. Some could interpret that as being a deep character. I feel it just shows weakness on his character once again.

All those go together to tell me, he shouldn't be champion. That's my opinion, but just because it's my opinion doesn't make it foolproof. For Christ's sake stop relying on that little excuse and start attacking my damned points. I'm not going to be bothered to go through the TV.com archives to search for your Cena defenses, and if you aren't willing to state them on a forum that you admit is better than TV.com, then I'll take that as you not having the ability to come up with any counter attacks for my points.
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jackymatic
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He died for your sins
I bet you couldn't get a quote of me when I was on tv.com :lol:
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WWEFootos48
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God
jackymatic
Oct 30 2006, 06:34 PM
I bet you couldn't get a quote of me when I was on tv.com  :lol:

Yeah, we could, actually:

jackymatiac
 
[This message was deleted at the request of a moderator or administrator]
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Nubochanozep
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^Quote of the year
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4400TVJunkie
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All hail King Booker!
Sorry, I got distracted. I was talking to my daddy on the phone. Anywaaay.....

Well since you stated your points like that, I actually agree with all of them in some manner. Oops, but I probably took the easy way out again right?

OMG but cena lyke, da bestest wrestler in tha whole world!!?! Y do u hat3 hym??!

Alright, here's the posting I was talking about while back....

4400TVJunkie
 
His repetoire of moves is severly held back. When he first came into the WWE, he had some great matches with Chris Jericho and Kurt Angle. Now of course, those guys are extremely good and could carry a broomstick to a good match. But Cena did a lot more moves in those bouts than just kicking and punching. He went through his training in OVW doing more moves than kicking and punching. He's a very knowledgeable and good wrestler.

He's able to get reactions from every single person in the audience, whether it's good or bad. The WWE then thinks that people care enough about him to vocalize their opinions so they must be doing something right. He is the most over heel and face in the business today. No one has more control over the crowd than Cena. Pay attention to when he comes out to the ring. Everyone gets up on their feets to boo or cheer. The guy simply causes reactions.

He has great in-ring psychology. He can tell a story in any match. On RAW, not so much because usually his matches are too short. But in matches that are longer or are gimmick matches, he really turns on the psychology factor. People know what he's thinking just by his facial expressions and mannerisms. It's quite impressive. Some examples of this are One Night Stand II and Unforgiven 2006.

Mic skills. Cena is easily better on the mic than most of the guys in the business today. he brings the charisma and confidence that so many guys like Nitro, Randy, Batista, Masters, Benjamin, Lashley, etc are missing. One could argue that all of the guys mentioned are the future of the business. Cena is blowing all of them out of the water in terms of mic skills. He believes in what he is saying and he conveys it well. Now he's not good all the time as evidenced by this past RAW where I thought he was bad. It was mostly due to the crowd not wanting to listen to him. Also, the scripted lines they feed him are bad but this post are about his positives.

He gives 110% in his matches. I've never seen a Cena match where he looked like he didn't wanna be taking part in it. He's never "phoned it in" as they say in wrestling. Though the matches are sometimes not pretty and the crowd craps on him, he never loses focus. His job to put on an entertaining match, whether people think it is or not. There have been countless wrestlers who have put in emotionless, lackluster performances in their matches at times. They just give off the vibe that they would rather be somewhere else but out in the ring.  Cena is not one of them.

He's an awesome guy outside of the ring. There's never been a report of Cena getting a big head (like Batista), or completely losing his cool when the fans booed him (like Batista), or crapping in a girl's bag and failing a drug test (Like Douchebag Orton), etc. He gets along with everybody backstage and just has a wonderful personality. He's extremely sweet to his fans and takes the time to autograph as many signs as he can (even the anti-Cena ones.) So for his fans, it makes it that much better knowing that your favorite wrestler, who is a face, is not really acting when he's in the ring or giving a promo. That's him as himself, a nice guy.


Happy now?
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Nubochanozep
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No. I've got to go but don't think that I won't respond to your points when I get home.
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jackymatic
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He died for your sins
WWEWhoseLine48
Oct 30 2006, 11:38 PM
jackymatic
Oct 30 2006, 06:34 PM
I bet you couldn't get a quote of me when I was on tv.com  :lol:

Yeah, we could, actually:

jackymatiac
 
[This message was deleted at the request of a moderator or administrator]

I love how you took all that time to actually make up something like that


but what can you do with kids these days
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WWEFootos48
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God
jackymatic
Oct 30 2006, 06:58 PM
WWEWhoseLine48
Oct 30 2006, 11:38 PM
jackymatic
Oct 30 2006, 06:34 PM
I bet you couldn't get a quote of me when I was on tv.com  :lol:

Yeah, we could, actually:

jackymatiac
 
[This message was deleted at the request of a moderator or administrator]

I love how you took all that time to actually make up something like that


but what can you do with kids these days

Awwww... Is somebody afraid of your past?


Sorry to say, both of you, but you both are right. What Ms. Junkie, and what Mr. Nebbalebbadingdong are saying, are both true. In character, Cena is one of the more annoying characters currently. However, what she's saying, is that he's being held back by the WWE, which is also true. (Compare him to when he first came in, and see what I mean)
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jackymatic
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He died for your sins
WWEWhoseLine48
Oct 31 2006, 12:03 AM
jackymatic
Oct 30 2006, 06:58 PM
WWEWhoseLine48
Oct 30 2006, 11:38 PM
jackymatic
Oct 30 2006, 06:34 PM
I bet you couldn't get a quote of me when I was on tv.com  :lol:

Yeah, we could, actually:

jackymatiac
 
[This message was deleted at the request of a moderator or administrator]

I love how you took all that time to actually make up something like that


but what can you do with kids these days

Awwww... Is somebody afraid of your past?


afraid?


I'm sorry but I'm going to have to respond with:
:wtf:
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4400TVJunkie
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All hail King Booker!
Larry David
Oct 30 2006, 06:57 PM
No. I've got to go but don't think that I won't respond to your points when I get home.

Why would I think otherwise? :lol:
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SRP76
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The Man. Any Questions?
jackymatic
Oct 30 2006, 07:58 PM
WWEWhoseLine48
Oct 30 2006, 11:38 PM
jackymatic
Oct 30 2006, 06:34 PM
I bet you couldn't get a quote of me when I was on tv.com  :lol:

Yeah, we could, actually:

jackymatiac
 
[This message was deleted at the request of a moderator or administrator]

I love how you took all that time to actually make up something like that


but what can you do with kids these days

Who says he made it up? I've seen some of your posts deleted over there before. :???:
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4400TVJunkie
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All hail King Booker!
WWEWhoseLine48
Oct 30 2006, 06:38 PM
jackymatic
Oct 30 2006, 06:34 PM
I bet you couldn't get a quote of me when I was on tv.com  :lol:

Yeah, we could, actually:

jackymatiac
 
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:rofl: Good one.
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Terrible Fry
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I have an idea. Why don't you look for something that you do enjoy, instead of focusing on what you hate. I did that and I'm much happier. :)

I know as being a paying customer we have every right to complain, but when our complaints keep falling on deaf ears, it's about time we shopped elsewhere. It's just not worth the trouble.

BTW... if the WWE were to fire Cena, would that really fix what is so wrong with wrestling today? I mean next it will only be The Boogyman or The Miz or... so on.
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_DL_
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BURN IT DOOOWWNNNNNNNN!
WWEWhoseLine48
Oct 30 2006, 06:38 PM
jackymatic
Oct 30 2006, 06:34 PM
I bet you couldn't get a quote of me when I was on tv.com  :lol:

Yeah, we could, actually:

jackymatiac
 
[This message was deleted at the request of a moderator or administrator]

Lol, that's the first wtfpwn3d in 6SW.
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Nubochanozep
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4400TVJunkie
 
His repetoire of moves is severly held back. When he first came into the WWE, he had some great matches with Chris Jericho and Kurt Angle. Now of course, those guys are extremely good and could carry a broomstick to a good match. But Cena did a lot more moves in those bouts than just kicking and punching. He went through his training in OVW doing more moves than kicking and punching. He's a very knowledgeable and good wrestler.

He's able to get reactions from every single person in the audience, whether it's good or bad. The WWE then thinks that people care enough about him to vocalize their opinions so they must be doing something right. He is the most over heel and face in the business today. No one has more control over the crowd than Cena. Pay attention to when he comes out to the ring. Everyone gets up on their feets to boo or cheer. The guy simply causes reactions.

He has great in-ring psychology. He can tell a story in any match. On RAW, not so much because usually his matches are too short. But in matches that are longer or are gimmick matches, he really turns on the psychology factor. People know what he's thinking just by his facial expressions and mannerisms. It's quite impressive. Some examples of this are One Night Stand II and Unforgiven 2006.

Mic skills. Cena is easily better on the mic than most of the guys in the business today. he brings the charisma and confidence that so many guys like Nitro, Randy, Batista, Masters, Benjamin, Lashley, etc are missing. One could argue that all of the guys mentioned are the future of the business. Cena is blowing all of them out of the water in terms of mic skills. He believes in what he is saying and he conveys it well. Now he's not good all the time as evidenced by this past RAW where I thought he was bad. It was mostly due to the crowd not wanting to listen to him. Also, the scripted lines they feed him are bad but this post are about his positives.

He gives 110% in his matches. I've never seen a Cena match where he looked like he didn't wanna be taking part in it. He's never "phoned it in" as they say in wrestling. Though the matches are sometimes not pretty and the crowd craps on him, he never loses focus. His job to put on an entertaining match, whether people think it is or not. There have been countless wrestlers who have put in emotionless, lackluster performances in their matches at times. They just give off the vibe that they would rather be somewhere else but out in the ring.  Cena is not one of them.

He's an awesome guy outside of the ring. There's never been a report of Cena getting a big head (like Batista), or completely losing his cool when the fans booed him (like Batista), or crapping in a girl's bag and failing a drug test (Like Douchebag Orton), etc. He gets along with everybody backstage and just has a wonderful personality. He's extremely sweet to his fans and takes the time to autograph as many signs as he can (even the anti-Cena ones.) So for his fans, it makes it that much better knowing that your favorite wrestler, who is a face, is not really acting when he's in the ring or giving a promo. That's him as himself, a nice guy.


Blah blah blah, who gives a crap what he's capable of? That's not the point. He's been the chamion on and off for two years now, and he's showing none of the skill and the moves that you said he had back in the day. Yeah, he may have been able to do a few extra moves in the day, but that's not the point. The point is that he's a sucky wrestler now who relies on a monotonous moveset that happens to be one of the cheapest gimmick laden movesets ever seen (as opposed to Bret Harts one, or HBK's slightly gimmicked yet ultimately enjoyable moveset) to get through a match. That's not what I expect from a champion. If he goes back to his prototype wrestling skills (which I wasn't privvy to), then perhaps my opinion of him will change. I think it's awfully moronic to base a defense of Cena on what he's done in the past though, as opposed to what he's like now.

You also say that he has control over the crowd. What utter bullcrap. When half the audience is booing the hell out of him and the other half is cheering for him, how is that control? It's anything but control, in fact, it's chaos. He's a half over face and a half over heel, not the most over of all.

Facial expressions? Come on. He has good ones but so does EVERY other wrestler in existence.

Then you go on comparing him to other people. That's all well and good, but it doesn't improve him. Everything I've said about him is still absolutely true. Saying that Orton is worse doesn't make him any better, because Orton hasn't been the champion for two years. The problem is Cena.
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4400TVJunkie
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All hail King Booker!
Look, to a person like Vince, any reaction is a good reaction. You may not agree with it but to him, that tells him that people give a crap about Cena, enough to voice their response. Also, Cena hasn't been booed out of the arena in a while. You said earlier that you've given up watching wrestling, so of course you wouldn't know that. He's been getting close to about 95% cheers. It seems like the males have given up booing at least for the time being.

I agree Cena's moveset is limited. But that's for gimmick purposes. He's not supposed to be a five-star technical master. He's a brawler. Apparently, a brawler is not supposed to do moonsaults, dropkicks, Shooting Star Presses, and other nice moves.

Facial expressions tie in with the psychology of matches. You just admitted he had good ones so I have nothing else to say.

You're calling me out because I compared him to other wrestlers? What did you go and do in your post? Compared him to Hart and HBK. :rolleyes: Don't criticize someone for doing something and then go on and do that same thing. It makes you look like an idiot.

Oh, and the problem isn't Cena. The problem is Vince McMahon.
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Nubochanozep
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I was using Hart and HBK as an example to avoid your, or someone elses inevitable comparison to those two wrestlers. I was simply making a preemptive move against those comebacks. You sit there and yabber on about how Cena simply must be champion because everyone else is shit. You DIRECTLY defend Cena based on the other wrestlers, whereas I was highlighting the inevitable, and ultimately useless comparisons that will be made. They're completely different, stop being a douchebag. Also, I take personal insult to, and find it highly patronising that as an educated wrestling fan I have you spiting in my face and tell me, essentially, that my opinion doesn't matter because I don't watch wrestling anymore. If anything, as an ex fan it gives my opinion more weight, as I'm the fan that actually did leave because he was fed up with the inane crap I saw on TV week after week.

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He's a brawler. Apparently, a brawler is not supposed to do moonsaults, dropkicks, Shooting Star Presses, and other nice moves.


Oh, oh, but Neb, it's a part of his character! What complete and utter crap. Who's to say that a white rapper can't use anything beyond those five horrible moves. What the hell is a five knuckle shuffle anyway? I hated the People's Elbow, but I absolutely despise the five knuckle shuffle. It's the worst move that could ever be seen. The STFU seems fairly scientific, the FU is somewhat athletic and wrestling based, and hell the other moves he does aren't exactly grounded in the brawler category either. The point? He's more than capable of doing better moves, but his current moveset sucks and can't be conviniently blamed on a little category you put him in out of ease.

The problem might be Vince McMahon, but Vince McMahon seems to have been the one to deliver to me great superstars, and has kept me hooked until this last year. If I was doing a statistics course, I'd lump together those things and tell you that the correlation is simply too high. It's absolutely moronic for you to sit there and tell me that it's not Cena's fault that for the first time since I became a fan, I've stopped watching out of my own choice, and that time happens to co-incide with Cena's second stagnant title run. Yeah, it's convinient to blame Vince McMahon, but Cena is still the one that sucks on TV, he's the sucky champion and you and I have ABSOLUTELY no evidence to suggest that it is Vince McMahon who's behind this horrible wrestler. I'm sure he is, pity then that without Cena I'd probably still be watching.
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4400TVJunkie
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All hail King Booker!
Larry David
Oct 31 2006, 04:28 AM
I was using Hart and HBK as an example to avoid your, or someone elses inevitable comparison to those two wrestlers. I was simply making a preemptive move against those comebacks.

Wow, okay. Keep telling yourself that.

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You sit there and yabber on about how Cena simply must be champion because everyone else is shit.

Where did I say that in any of my posts? Please point that out to me. I'm sure you'll have a hard time pointing it out because I never said such a thing. Don't put your silly exaggerations in my mouth. They may work for your posts, but they don't work for me.

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They're completely different, stop being a douchebag. Also, I take personal insult to, and find it highly patronising that as an educated wrestling fan I have you spiting in my face and tell me, essentially, that my opinion doesn't matter because I don't watch wrestling anymore. If anything, as an ex fan it gives my opinion more weight, as I'm the fan that actually did leave because he was fed up with the inane crap I saw on TV week after week.

You're reading way too much into my responses. Again, I didn't mean for that to sound like a personal attack but if you took it that way, then so be it. To tell you the truth, I don't think too highly of you anyway so I guess it works out for us both. Sometimes, I wonder if you believe half of the shit that comes out of your mouth. Man, it took you this long to finally call me a douchebag. Good for you, asshole. :clap:

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The problem might be Vince McMahon, but Vince McMahon seems to have been the one to deliver to me great superstars, and has kept me hooked until this last year. If I was doing a statistics course, I'd lump together those things and tell you that the  correlation is simply too high. It's absolutely moronic for you to sit there and tell me that it's not Cena's fault that for the first time since I became a fan, I've stopped watching out of my own choice, and that time happens to co-incide with Cena's second stagnant title run. Yeah, it's convinient to blame Vince McMahon, but Cena is still the one that sucks on TV, he's the sucky champion and you and I have ABSOLUTELY no evidence to suggest that it is Vince McMahon who's behind this horrible wrestler. I'm sure he is, pity then that without Cena I'd probably still be watching.

There are more things wrong with the WWE than Cena. There's no tag division. There's no CW division. Ratings are low. PPVs are of average quality. People are getting released left and right. I could go on for hours. Narrowing it down to RAW, there more things wrong with that show as a whole than just Cena being champ. If you've stopped watching it because of him, and that only reason, that's pretty pathetic. Also, for you to assume that Vince has no control over Cena is delusional. You really think Vince is just sending Cena out on his merry way to the ring to do whatever he wants? Highly unlikely. Cena is being told what to say, how to say it, how to wrestle, how to act, etc.
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Terrible Fry
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I have a question. What exactly was the point of this thread anyway?
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Nubochanozep
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Holy shit 4400, take a freaking break and seperate yourself from the bloody argument. I don't know how many times I have to say this to you people - When I call you a douchebag, and when I disagree with you it doesn't mean I dislike you. Yes, if your name is Sugarpop or Madness then it probably does mean I dislike you, but you don't have to take any of this so personally. Waa waa waa, Nebuchanezzar called me a douchebag. Who cares? It's just a word I use to describe everyone, on the internet and off the internet. It's the same as if I call you a moron. You can call me what you like, I don't care, maybe you should learn not to care as well.

Of course, having said that there's a line to be drawn. Calling somebody a douchebag is entirely different to saying what sounded like "Neb doesn't watch wrestling anymore, hence his opinion is null and void." Yeah, maybe I read too much into it, but how did you expect me to respond?

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I have a question. What exactly was the point of this thread anyway?


Discussion. I think I created that.

Onto the bulk...

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Where did I say that in any of my posts? Please point that out to me. I'm sure you'll have a hard time pointing it out because I never said such a thing. Don't put your silly exaggerations in my mouth. They may work for your posts, but they don't work for me.


Yes mother.

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There have been countless wrestlers who have put in emotionless, lackluster performances in their matches at times. They just give off the vibe that they would rather be somewhere else but out in the ring.  Cena is not one of them.


Translation: Compared to other wrestlers who are bad, Cena is good. Cena is my friend.

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There's never been a report of Cena getting a big head (like Batista)


Translation: Cena is not like Batista, Cena is therefore a good wrestler. Seeing as he's a good wrestler, he's therefore deserving of being da champ!

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or completely losing his cool when the fans booed him (like Batista)


Same deal

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crapping in a girl's bag and failing a drug test (Like Douchebag Orton)


Same deal, although that was a joke by Orton was it not? I found it pretty funny (but of course you would Neb! You keep telling yourself that).

Moving on...

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There are more things wrong with the WWE than Cena. There's no tag division. There's no CW division. Ratings are low. PPVs are of average quality. People are getting released left and right. I could go on for hours. Narrowing it down to RAW, there more things wrong with that show as a whole than just Cena being champ. If you've stopped watching it because of him, and that only reason, that's pretty pathetic. Also, for you to assume that Vince has no control over Cena is delusional. You really think Vince is just sending Cena out on his merry way to the ring to do whatever he wants? Highly unlikely. Cena is being told what to say, how to say it, how to wrestle, how to act, etc.


Yes, because tag teams rake in the cash, and cruiserweights have been the wrestlers that masterpiece main events have been focused around on a number of occasions, haven't they? Of course not, what a silly comparison to make. I could go on, but you get the drift. There's a reason why most people (except for yourself it seems) treat the WWE championship with a certain degree of respect, and that thing is that the wrestler who carries it carries the WWE and is the one single factor that the company will be remembered for in those years. "1997", the first thing that comes to mind is HBK's World title run. "1987" Wrestlemania III and Hulk as the champ. "2001" Wrestlemania X7, Austin's heel turn and winning of the title. See the picture here now? Do I need to go on? What other excuses can you come up with?

And just to clarify

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That's him as himself, a nice guy.


I don't give a crap if he's a nice guy. Everything I said about him is still true! Who cares if he's nice when he's lousy as a wrestler and therefore lousy as a champion!
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4400TVJunkie
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All hail King Booker!
You're the one who's catching feelings in this argument. You assumed I was insulting you when I wasn't. You're the one who needs to chill. Also, I think we got in another argument over the douchebag stuff. Listen, I don't care if you call anyone else a douche. I don't care if it's supposedly part of your "charm". I don't care if it's a word you call everyone else. I don't appreciate being called names. I don't see it as being cute or a joke. I see it as being immature. Maybe everyone else here worships you and loves your eccentricities. I sure as hell don't. It's not a matter of me "not getting the joke". It's just a matter of me not liking you and how you present yourself on these forums. You say I'm the condenscending one. You must be dreaming.

You said your points are absolutely true. So are mine. What's your point? Or do you even have one?

Again, you try to argue my points with failed wit. I'm not gonna give you the pleasure of a rebuttal to your sarcasm.

You're right, I don't take the WWE championship very seriously. I don't take wrestling as a whole very seriously. I haven't followed it all my life. Maybe it's because I'm a girl whose life doesn't revolve around wrestling. For someone like you, it's obviously a different story. "Oh my God, Cena is champ, I hate life." :rolleyes: Get over yourself.
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Nubochanozep
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Wow, just...just wow. You took a topic which had lots of content in it, and ended up making your last post a pure flamefest. Well done 4400TVJunkie. You truly deserve my much saved picture that I use only in the worst situations. Wait, I can't use it because you as a mature and Godly member wouldn't appreciate being called a name. Yeah, I'm going to continue because the topic is dead now, all thanks to you and your fuse which lasts half of the word douchebag.

You know, everyone had an opportunity to sack me with the staff evaluations, and whilst I did get a few negative reviews I got just as many positive ones. No-one failed a review, and the major thing I fell back on was that I wasn't fair to some people. You know, I like to think that I give everyone an equal opportunity, and I do, but when you make a post like the one you just made above you really try my damn patience. How the hell am I to respond to the stuff you just posted as a staff member? Am I meant to walk away and take the high road? Stuff that idea, I'm not going to.

Why do I seem angry in situations like this? It's because people like you take such damn offense to the word douchebag, get tied in a knot over it and chuck a freaking hissy fit over the most minor of all things. So yes, maybe if you take such offense to a name that has NO DEFINITION behind it, I'm a little condescending. I tend to think that when somebody dismisses a wrestling fans POV because they don't watch wrestling anymore, it's a little more offensive than calling someone a random insult.

And you know, my first post in this thread didn't have a bad thing to say about you. I had bad things to say about Stormy, that's it. You then come in here and spout your Godly crap about growing up, and categorisations as if you're above everyone else. Wow, how's that for a neutral and non condescending POV. Good one 4400TVJunkie, you made a total hypocritical fucking douchebag of yourself. Nice going. Myabe you should learn to be a little more like Brownmania and take it all AS A GOD DAMNED JOKE! Funny or not, it's not serious! Get a sense of fucking humour.
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BrownMania
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While I don't think it's necessary to reduce the "Is John Cena a credible champion?" argument to a festival of insults, I do think it is an important argument to have within the IWC because whether pro wrestling is fake or not, many of us follow it somewhat passionately.

I dislike John Cena as champion because I don't find him entertaining, charismatic or very athletic. My dislike for him goes far beyond his repertoire of moves; we all know Stone Cold and The Rock among other greats had very limited movesets. For me, it's Cena's execution; it's so robotic and awkward. I can't stand his shoulder block or fisherman's suplex. I find him rather slow and non-reactive when compared to past champions.

Furthermore, I don't approve of his ring attire. Sneakers and shorts, it's just not an image that properly represents the WWE championship. Main event wrestlers wear boot and tights among other pieces of wrestling attire.

Those reasons, however, are really just a matter of personal preference and really don't have any impact on a grand scale as to whether or not Cena is a deserving champion.

For me, the one truly important and somewhat universal reason as to why Cena shouldn't be champion is his lack of mystique; that indefinable quality that, when you look at other wrestlers with that mystique, makes you say to yourself, "wow, this is incredible."

I hate to do it, but I always end up going back to WrestleMania X-Seven; the zenith of professional wrestling. The pure electricity that was felt throughout that event, whether it was Triple H doing his turnbuckle taunt or The Rock making his way to the ring to participate in arguably the most anticipated match in wrestling history, you said to yourself, "this is unbelievable."

People who dispute what I just said often say, "it's not the Attitude era anymore" which is completely true. It isn't true, however, that you can't compare that era or any other period of pro wrestling to another one. When you compare any previous era within its own context to this era, I think it's easy to see why so many people don't like John Cena as the WWE champion.

Cena simply does not possess that aforementioned mystique that people like Hogan or Flair or The Rock had during their prime. When he makes his way to the ring he get's a big reaction, there's no doubt about it; but having said that, I don't think anyone (not even the 12 year-old marks) looks at him the way I looked at Stone Cold when I was 12. It's hard to explain the point I'm trying to make, but I think many of you know what I'm talking about. Thirty years from now, people will still remember Hulk Hogan, Bret Hart, Stone Cold Steve Austin and many others from this era, I don't believe they will remember John Cena.

That's why I believe he is the worst champion I've ever seen; while other, perhaps, less credible people have held the title, none of them were ever allowed to squash so many other more talented (talent meaning charisma and "mystique") opponents or hold the most important belt in pro wrestling for as long as John Cena has and therein lies the problem for wrestling fans such as myself.
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