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| The John Cena debate | |
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| Topic Started: Oct 30 2006, 08:24 AM (2,389 Views) | |
| Ashy Shaq | Oct 31 2006, 03:39 PM Post #31 |
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The Silver Standard
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Woah, I'm not gonna touch this. I think everything has been said, so..... lock? |
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| 4400TVJunkie | Oct 31 2006, 05:55 PM Post #32 |
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All hail King Booker!
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I tried your patience? Wow, what a coincidence, as you got on my nerves as well. Funny how you're putting this all on me. It takes two to have a conversation. Nothing gets on my nerves more than people acting like the innocent one in situations where they did just as much damage. Rename the thread and garner all the pity you want, if that's what you need to make you feel better, do it. Look, I responded to your posts, your feelings were hurt and you felt attacked. I called you out on certain things, and you took offense. Maybe because no one else has called you out before, I don't know. You got positive staff reviews? Awesome. Good for you. Keep up the good work. Really, there's nothing to talk about anymore. If you wanna waste your time with a response, be my guest. |
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| MY85 | Oct 31 2006, 06:52 PM Post #33 |
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It's a fabulous new day, yes it is!
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Wow, this is interesting. A whole debate about John Cena turned into a flamewar and name caliing. As my opinions about Cena, I'll have to agree with both Larry and Junkie. It's part of Cena not being a believable champion and the fact that since Wrestlemania 21 he has been in the title hunt picture. But if Cena during his reigns could have shown his real talent, then maybe would belive him as a true champion. He's not even showing his rapper gimmick that much anymore. Relying on Cena's past is just a way to see how good the guy once was, but the mistake WWE made with Cena was that Cena's characther hasn't improved the way he should had improved as a champion. Being a champion of any title should mean that during their reign they should really prove why they won their title match and why they deserve to be a champion, regardless if people are or not fans of a wrestler who holds a title. Everyone here can feel free to love or hate any wrestler. Sure people hate or love Cena's title reign or the characther the guy portrays. Sure many loved Triple H or hated him because he seemed like a power-hungry fucker that held on to the important titles like 10 times. Or people loved Rey Mysterio because of his talent and athleticism or hated him because he was small or because his WHC reign wasn't believeable (it got better weeks before TGAB in my opinion)... and so on it goes. And as for how insults were used within this thread... in my opinion I think that if insults were used here, it should be used as a help to get a point stated in a conversation rather than using an insult to trash down a member in a conversation. Larry, not everyone here would find it that logical to see you calling everyone as a douchebag, even if you claim it to be a joke. Not everyone finds it cool or okay to be called names in a forum. At first, I thought it was weird for you to call everyone douchebags and idiots because of things they've said or for other reasons. I'll admit to understand your way of using the word,I had to read up a few threads and then get used to it. But dude, if 4400TVJunkie doesn't like to be called names here, at least respect the women's opinion. Some can tolerate your use of the douchebag word, some simply won't. Heh... your thread brought BrownMania here, which proves your point of attracting a new member to this forum as a good point. I'll give you that. But the last thing I'd like to see on a great forum like 6 Star Wrestling is to lose valuable members. Oh, and I'll reply to what Larry said about Smackdown later, if I get the time to do so. I got classes soon... |
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| Terrible Fry | Oct 31 2006, 06:58 PM Post #34 |
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I don't know if this really adds anything to the arguement, but I would like to tell you all my deal with John Cena. For one thing John Cena has never impressed me as a wrestler. With a couple of exceptions, I have always found him to be a bore in the ring. I found his gimmick to be too cartoonish for my liking. In fact the first time I saw him with his rapper gimmick (I'm talking about when he was with B2), I immediately thought "Eminem rip-off" and that it would eventually end up like other bad gimmicks... on the next video montage of "It Looked Good on Paper". So... then he started getting his push, feuding with the likes of Brock Lesner, Undertaker and then Angle. Although he started showing improvements, his performances in the ring were still sub-par, but he was actually a revelation on the mic. He was fresh and entertaining to watch and it was around this time I actually thought that if he improved his ring work, he could become a great main-eventer. Unfortunately I was only half right, he did become a main-eventer. It was after his first feud with Angle in late 2003, I was then beginning to see the holes in his performances. I kept thinking that he could still be a great superstar in time, but it was during his first U.S. title reign that I began to smark out to Cena. I can childishly claim that I beat the trend, which is what I believe it has become among some fans. It was because of the fans that I started to take more notice of Cena (that and his tedious WWE title reigns). I too was despising him holding the title. After he kept getting eaten alive by frustrated fans such as myself, I was laughing. It just seemed so different to me that such a babyface was getting this much heel heat. And after reading the childish insults slung throughout TV.com, I was beginning to find it even more hillarious. But it was when this demographic had a face that made me rethink my veiws on John Cena and the state of the WWE as a whole. I tried not to let it cloud my judgement, because I still stand by what I have written above about John Cena. But it tugged at my heartstrings when my twelve year old cousin (who I adore) asked me why the fans are constantly booing Cena. Feeling like a fraud, I reluctantly told him that a lot of fans don't think he is worthy of the title. Not telling him that I feel the same way. It made me think that maybe insulting Cena's young fan base is akin to telling a three year old that Barney the Dinosaur is just a goon in a stupid purple suit. This is why I have been standing up for John Cena even though I do agree that he is the worst WWE champion. ... And then he told me he liked The Boogyman. ![]() Now I didn't intend to sound like I'm saying "Will you pleeeease think of the children!!!", but John Cena is a hero to todays generation of impressionable tweens. He is their hero because the WWE has presented him in that fashion. It's just a shame that they couldn't have picked a better role model. I mean look at the Attitude Era, I'm quite sure a lot of us on this forum became fans during this era, and I'm quite sure a lot of us were tweens during that time (I was actually about 16 or 17). It actually raises a question as to whether or not that the previous generation looks upon Stone Cold and The Rock with the same disdain as we do Cena. I kind of doubt it but you never know. ![]() As for the WWE title, IMO I think it actually lost it's prestige when JBL became champion and John Cena just continued it's decline. I do think John Cena is a problem but I don't think he is the problem with the WWE. I would be willing to accept John Cena in a WWE where he is a mid card wrestler on a strong roster of superstars that can carry the company to great success, like the one we had during the Attitude Era (we were so spoiled back then). In time I am hoping that he does improve and that he has a title reign that he did deserve, but right now they need to get that belt off him, change it back to it's original design and stop his constant push. I know these last couple of things been said many times before, but I still agree with them. |
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| TheObserver | Oct 31 2006, 07:17 PM Post #35 |
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Good lord, I've read through most of the thread and was thinking maybe this should be renamed "The Cena Argument". I've already said my say so on him, it does no justice to keep arguing over him, we all have our views but this thread just seems to be going round and round with one opinion not seemingly to be right while others are trying to convince Cena is this or that. But you know, it's all an opinion, nothing more or nothing less. For Cena's character, I just like to say that he has some say on what it is, it was just like The Rock when he was'nt happy, he chose to go to creative and tell them that he wanted to change, I think Cena is doing what he is told but having him not say what he wants he character to be, just does'nt seem right. The thing people see is that he portrays a character than not alot really care about, but yet still sells merchandise, while it can be argued that he is'nt the best wrestler nor have the best mic skills, atleast he respects the business and that is one reason I can respect him, he is mature an unlike alot of other wrestlers can take heat without lashing out. Just look at the incident when he went to ONS this year, then look at the way Batista acted when he was put into the same situation, I am by no means trying to defend Cena but he does have my respect to a certain degree. Meaning that I respect him a as a person but not as a wrestler, I can give plenty of samples as to who else I feel like that towards but with just different views of course. |
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| Purple Marauder | Oct 31 2006, 07:58 PM Post #36 |
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Stand Back! There's a Hurricane Coming Through
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If this was at all a serious debate on Jon Cena, it would be one thing, but that's not what this thread is about. I don't even think this belongs in the wrestling section of the board. |
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| WWEFootos48 | Oct 31 2006, 08:50 PM Post #37 |
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God
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You know, I have something to add (or actually agree) to Brownmania's post. When I think about John Cena, I don't get that same "Feeling" you would get, if the likes of Hogan, Rock, or Austin would come into the arena. As many may know, I got the History of the WWE Championship DVD a few days ago, and actually watched a few of Hogan's old matches. What was so different, and superb, was the whole atmosphere when he wrestled. We all know he didn't have the best moveset, but when he went out there, he had enough charisma to keep the fans in the palm of his hand, and became one of the most popular wrestlers ever because of it. When Cena comes to the ring, the atmosphere is totally different. When he comes to the ring, you just don't get that whole "Atmosphre" that you would get from other guys. There's nothing really special about him that we haven't seen before. Hogan was this "American Icon" who would defend his Hulkamaniacs, and his true beliefs, Austin was the "Anti-hero," who said hell wtih the rules, and Rock just had that pure charisma. With me, it's "Either-Or" for a wrestler. You can either have great wrestling skills and gain my respect, but if not, you can also be flawless on the mic, and still get that same respect (albiet I like the "Wrestling" aspect more). Cena is just average, with both categories. We all know about his wrestling defencies, with his "Superman" trance, (which would be pretty cool if he dressed as that for Halloween) as well as his sub-par mic skills. (I did like him as the rapper, though) All Champions had at least one thing that made them stand out, but at this point, Cena has really nothing to make him stand out from anybody else. Maybe if he was a heel, where he could use "Heel" tactics to get over in matches, but otherwise, he's just boring. |
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| _DL_ | Oct 31 2006, 09:59 PM Post #38 |
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BURN IT DOOOWWNNNNNNNN!
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I don't see how it's fair to compare Cena to Hogan and Austin and that "feeling" you get. Cena is still in his prime, so there's no way to look back in retrospect at him like we do Hogan and Austin. |
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| TheObserver | Nov 1 2006, 05:51 AM Post #39 |
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I know your a fan of Cena DL so I'll try and not to be as harsh but something I must point out, if Cena is in his prime then we have nothing to look foward to. I'm about fed up with people putting Cena and Austin and even Hogan in the same category, the thing is you can't. Between the three, the main thing to seperate them all is that both Austin and Hogan had the "it" factor while Cena is nothing than a mediocre champion who happens to be be Vince's cash cow and for that he is getting the push he is getting, the thing is as I mentioned, the white rapper gimmick is'nt going to go over to well if it is'nt entertaining, but it is'nt of course this is where creative steps in but seeing as they suck, and they don't know shit about what fans want to see, they put Cean in a situation that no actual wrestling fan cares about, especially the old school ones like myself. The gimmick is tiring and let me point out the obvious if no one has realized it but the thing about Austin is that he actually busted his ass to be as big of a star as he became because he started in the Indy scene (unlike Cena who was breaded within WWE's developmental promotions) and went to WCW, did a hell of job being a really good tv champ, perhaps one of the best along with putting together one of the most underrated tag teams of all time, the Hollywood Blondes that have'nt got the recognition they deserved, got injured overseas, got fired on the phone, went to ECW, which no one seemed to catch on at the time that was the prelude to his gimmick which we all knowingly go by, in which he acts as himself, the main thing that makes someone stand out from the rest is to be yourself but WWE is hung up on cartoonish type gimmicks which eventually does nothing for the wrestler unless it's something that can relate to them. But on to Stone Cold. When he came to WWF/E, he was simply known as the Ringmaster which did'nt get quite over with fans, but was still good enough to be manage by Ted Dibiase, as the gimmick went on, it did'nt last, once dropped, and kicked ass at one of the original King Of The Rings, he established himself a superstar, this happen in a course of two years but the thing is he had wrestlers that helped him become as good as he became. Cena on the other hand just got silver spooned into being a WWE champion and for that, fans don't care unless you're a parent or a child or even an actual poser, believe me I've seen them, I see them all the time and it makes me sick so being the character he is gives me no consideration over what has happened since he does have say so over what his character is or not. If the person is'nt happy, then they can simply say something, Cena sucks as a wrestler end of story, he sucks on the mic and sounds like a wannabe that I grew up around in Ohio that portrayed themselves as being something they are'nt. I don't care if the shit is part of his personality, it's idiodic and plain retarded to put himself out like that, stop putting Austin and Hogan in the same phrase, it's pointless. The WWE tries to push both Orton and Cena down peoples throats like they are the future of the business, you want the future, go pick up any ROH video and watch what they do, nothing Cena does will ever compare to that. Vince has the misconception that just because a variety of audiences like to see that stupid ass gimmick that they should make him champion, just because Eminem cuts an album about dissing people makes it right? Fuck no. WWE sucks and having Cena be the poster boy for it does'nt make it any better. WWE knows they can get away with it though because they are this machine that never stops and no matter how many of the IWC complains, shit will never change cause Vince is an idiot who'd rather hire so stupid whore and pay her plenty of money, knowing they don't contribute anything to the wrestling world but to take up time for the horny assholes in the stands or at home. Here's an idea, get a playboy you idiots and stop sticking up for divas that are a waste of tv time, or better yet go watch the E channel, I hear they like showing stupid shit that no one cares about. Those people that do supposed shoots on YouTube are idiots to, go waste someone elses time, or read a book, those that enjoy seeing that crap apparently have no open mind about anything. As I said before, I respect Cena to a certain degree but when I hear him in the same category as Austin or even Hogan then something is wrong, he'll never have what they have which is called charisma and wanting people to see more of what he has to offer each week. Yes Hogan maybe overrated now and maybe even for a while but he brought things that would interest people into watching him each week, when this was happening and he went to WCW to start the whole NWO thing, between him and Austin, among other stuff that played a factor that I'm not going to get into cause I'm sick of typing but if it were'nt for the anti hero's they were, wrestling would'nt be as popular as it was during that time period. Not just that but WWE has no one to really worry about trying to change the way Vince see's things do to TNA not being a two hour show for one, WWE has not one, two but three freakin shows for people to choose to watch from so it's not like we'll see a change anytime soon. Even if we did, they still don't utilize Shelton, Haas or even Kane the way they should be, go look at their site, what do you see? Stupid retarded divas, who gives a shit about seeing that stuff, sure they are good to look at, in a magazine but everytime you go to the site, it's something that is about this so called diva, or another, it's plain bullshit and gives wrestling a bad name. This is my honest answer, why am I known as B.Honest and have been around the same time I became -O- or TheObserver. FYI - because that's what I am in case no one understands what the the initial B is for, it's because I'm Brutal with every word that comes out, though it does'nt happen as much as people may see, but it comes out whenever I have to, it's just as if someone has something on their mind and says what they think, I in a retrospect to the same but my own way. No matter if I were to say this in person or not, I don't play a bullshit gimmick or act like something I am not, what you see is what you get when I post. Am I bitter, not really, this is just something I feel that should be said, I don't get bitter easily over stupid shit, cause it's a waste of time, life is to short for people to feel angry whenever. Even though we do get angry which is a natural cause, you can control it......sometimes. But you know, there's a time for everything to happen, everything happens for a reason or another that is beyond our control, okay I'm drifting. That is all. If anyone has any negative feedback on my post, feel free to write what you think but you're wasting your time cause I've said my piece on this thread and am now done with it and won't respond, and no I am not backing down off anything of what anyone has to say, I just choose not to spend more time than I already have on a subject that is endless with everyone having their own opinion. |
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| Nubochanozep | Nov 1 2006, 08:20 AM Post #40 |
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Apart from the constant references to "my opinion is an opinion and can't be touched", which is utter bullshit, great posts from everyone with the exception of two posts on the last page (one of which was mine) and one other post on this page. I'm also not crash hot on the idea of a moderator of all people encouraging people to post once in a thread, and then not return, but that's an issue for another day. I think with the exception of the aforementioned posts, this has been a great thread, and hence I once again take offense at the following post on behalf of 6SW...
This thread has been an excellent discussion on Cena, one that reeks of quantity and quality. It has been hampered by one member who took offense at a word and launched an attack on another member, and someone who kept on going when he should have stopped (although that person isn't one to ever back down from that type of thing...anywhere), but everything else has been an excellent critical analysis of Cena as a wrestler IMO. I'm of the opinion that back and forth argument constitute the best posts on an internet forum. They stir intelligent debate, analysis and interpretation of the content that's being screened and other posts, and this thread has provided all of that and more. The notion that this should be moved, or locked, or the questioning of it's existence seems absolutely asinine to me. |
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| _DL_ | Nov 1 2006, 06:30 PM Post #41 |
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BURN IT DOOOWWNNNNNNNN!
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But this isn't the past. We may never have stars of Austin and Hogan's calibur ever again. That's one thing people can't get over. It's time to stop living in the past. I'm not saying you should just swallow what WWE gives you, but you honestly feel that way about it, then just stop watching. |
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| TheObserver | Nov 1 2006, 06:36 PM Post #42 |
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I have DL.
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| _DL_ | Nov 1 2006, 06:42 PM Post #43 |
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BURN IT DOOOWWNNNNNNNN!
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Oh.....so we're on the same page then!
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| Nubochanozep | Nov 2 2006, 03:52 AM Post #44 |
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I also did D-L. ;) |
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| TheObserver | Nov 2 2006, 04:38 AM Post #45 |
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Ha ha, I wish but you know me DL and the way I see things or have been. Of course overall we have our own views on things and that's how it is no matter how much we say about the situation, it'll never get resolved unless it gets dropped with everyone keeping their own opinion.
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| Nubochanozep | Nov 2 2006, 04:41 AM Post #46 |
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AARRTHGGHGHGHGHGH!![]() I'm sick of this "opinion" opinion! Why is it that it must end with everyone's opinion being respected. If you don't like what someone says, don't bloody well sit there and accept it, you fight it down making every attempt to change their opinion even if it is in vain. The whole idea of democracy is built of challenging opinions. Of course, that's my opinion. If anyone has a problem with it feel free to challenge it. |
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| TheObserver | Nov 2 2006, 04:43 AM Post #47 |
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Stop whining Nebby.
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| Nubochanozep | Nov 2 2006, 04:53 AM Post #48 |
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I disagree with that opinion!
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| TheObserver | Nov 2 2006, 04:55 AM Post #49 |
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Let us duel then.
:saber: :smilewave: |
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| 4400TVJunkie | Nov 2 2006, 04:59 AM Post #50 |
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All hail King Booker!
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Why must we debate until someone's opinion is changed? Why can't it be accepted that some people will stick with their opinions no matter what? |
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| Nubochanozep | Nov 2 2006, 05:05 AM Post #51 |
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Because then you don't have the satisfaction of knowing that you changed somebodies incorrect opinion. I can't really sit by and say that they agree with the Iraq war, without exploding in a fit of anger. It annoys me that they have that belief, and I simply must do everything I can to convert them. There's your reason. |
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| MY85 | Nov 2 2006, 05:13 AM Post #52 |
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It's a fabulous new day, yes it is!
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Regarding hate on Cena, I'll add something that might be interesting to listen or not. It's not a surprise that many wrestling fans in my country hate John Cena to death that if he steps foot in Lima, first thing that will happen is that he easily gets booed and gets tossed rotten eggs to his face. Most of them call him this way: his name is Cena and his last name is Suxx. Cena Suxx, that's how most people call him. Some time ago on 6SW, Cybrus made an interesting point.
That led me to create a thread at a Peruvian Msn Group community (Peruwrestling) suggesting an idea about if John Cena gets ignored, he might get fired or suffer a change. A point I saw was from some dude there that said as long as Cena gets any kind of reaction (this was also spotted here at 6SW as well) and sells merchandise a lot (also, saying that Vince isn't dumb because he knows that a face sells much more merchandise than a heel would), he wouldn't get ignored or fired or subject to a change. I was also shocked that on Peruwrestling, nobody replied to my thread saying Cena is a piece of shit and the worst thing ever in wrestling history, which is said by several people on different threads across that community. Of course, that is usually mentioned when comparing Cena to other wrestlers. And last Sunday, Unforgiven aired. Some people said Cena sucked and that Edge carried the whole match, others mentioned that both did a great job, one dude said that he hated Cena so much but he admited that both pulled a hell of a match... but I'll remember one thing that someone said there was that some people here are already tired and bored of numbering Cena's cons, which might be true since in the peruvian forum that I hang out there has been less Cena bashing compared to months ago when there was many threads bashing the guy. Don't know if that helps for this thread's topic. |
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| _DL_ | Nov 2 2006, 05:17 AM Post #53 |
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BURN IT DOOOWWNNNNNNNN!
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Just remember this: "Regret Nothing, FearLESS"
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| Nubochanozep | Nov 2 2006, 05:21 AM Post #54 |
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Just remember this: "Whosa memba of mah chain gang homies" Any wrestler who spouts crap like that is going to get boos from me anyway, no matter how uncool it becomes to hate Cena (and it is indeed a disturbing trend). It's a pity Cena, you know, doesn't do any of that stuff anymore. |
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| 4400TVJunkie | Nov 2 2006, 05:40 AM Post #55 |
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All hail King Booker!
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Interesting points. I'd like to see that happen one day, Cena coming out to no reaction. That would be kind of funny. I will say that I don't ever see Cena being fired. Ever. Orton failed a drug test and got a relative slap on the wrist. What does that say for Cena? You really think Cena would be fired over not getting a crowd reaction? Doubt it. I see him being in the WWE for at least another ten years. I do think, however, that getting no reaction would promote a change. But how likely is that to happen?
So let me ask you this. Do you think everyone that likes Cena is completely wrong because, according to you, he's the worst wrestler alive? Is it your mission to turn every one of his fans against him because of your hatred for him? These are serious questions. |
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| Nubochanozep | Nov 2 2006, 06:05 AM Post #56 |
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Yes 4400. My life ambition is to turn Cena fans into becoming like me.
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| 4400TVJunkie | Nov 2 2006, 07:41 AM Post #57 |
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All hail King Booker!
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Eh. Okay. |
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| MY85 | Nov 5 2006, 06:10 PM Post #58 |
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It's a fabulous new day, yes it is!
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I found more suff for Cena debate...
Lol at the final part... |
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| BrownMania | Nov 21 2006, 08:33 AM Post #59 |
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Props to me for digging out an old thread Nonetheless I had to respond to this comment because it just isn't true. You can compare anything from any point in history to another as long as you consider the "context" in which the person or event occurred. Thus, it is perfectly legitimate for people to compare the likes of Cena to Austin and Hogan. Why? Because John Cena has held the WWE championship, by far the most prestigious belt in professional wrestling, for over 470 combined days. That puts him in the top 10 of WWE champions all-time. There is not a single person on the planet who could justify that to be a good thing. I know it's a tired old argument but Cena's continued inability to do anything with even the slightest of skills in or outside the ring is simply becoming too much for me to bare. John Cena can not take a bump. His moves are so robotic and without fluid movement that it seriously makes want to vomit. His little Ultimate Warrior-esque tirades he does when he starts taking control of a match make him look like a fool because he simply doesn't know what the fuck he's doing. I fucking hate John Cena. It sounds pathetic for someone to actually harbor so much hatred for a professional wrestler but it's honestly becoming too much for me. I've said it before and I'll say it again, John Cena is the worst fucking WWE champion of all-time. |
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| Nubochanozep | Nov 21 2006, 01:07 PM Post #60 |
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I'll readily admit that I like Cena as a champion more than Lesnar.
It makes me hate wrestling, it truly does.
I think you're aware of it, but none the less. I believe that was O was trying to get across, was that the quality of Cena in comparison to former champions such as Austin, HBK, Hart, Backlund, Rock, Angle et al, is simply not able to be compared. It's like comparing a piece of dog shit to a precious stone. Cena's the dog shit. |
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