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| The John Cena debate | |
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| Topic Started: Oct 30 2006, 08:24 AM (2,388 Views) | |
| Nubochanozep | Apr 22 2007, 03:30 AM Post #61 |
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In my never ending quest to convince the world that John Cena is the worst champion in the past century, and to document a few posts that I make here and there, I offer you this new post (from the NHC) explaining further, why I dislike John Cena. I don't expect too many to reply. This is mainly just to catalogue my feelings on the matter, and to refer people towards it if they question my hatred for the man.
k. I don't see what you're trying to prove here though, as it has nothing to do with what I said. What I said, was that there's no doubt that competition created a better product, and it did so for about...a year. I'd say that there was a period of about a month in 1998 where the two companies were trading blows with one another to such a level, that the outcome couldn't be predicted. In fact, I do believe that Foley mentioned in his first book that from about mid-1998 onwards, anyone could have predicted who would have won the ratings on any given night. After mid-1998, things went down the shitter for WCW, and the WWF dominated ever since. If you accept that the high ratings period was from Wrestlemania XIV-Survivor Series '01 (and it was), then you'll also no doubt accept that the ratings war therefore had VERY LITTLE to do with anything. The WWF was getting high ratings NOT because of WCW, but because of their PRODUCT. There's no other explanation for it, none at all. The very best idea you could put forth for your point of view, is if you believe that the ratings of Monday night shows were zero-sum, and even then, it's a pretty flimsy idea. Therefore, the reason why the WWE doesn't attract higher ratings anymore is NOT only because they have no competition (based on the fact that their peak ratings period was based in a time of very little competition, rather complete domination), but because their product mainly sucks. Why does it suck? It has been said on a thousand occasions that the single most important thing in the entire WWE, is it's championship. The company is built around that thing, always has been, still is. Think of any major moment in the WWF/E's history and I can almost guarantee that it'll have something to do with that championship. The championship scene, right now, is built around a hated face champion, with abysmal skills in almost all areas, who has been dragged through the mud, tied to a rope and flogged by the WWE for more than he's worth. He's a dead carcass swinging in the breeze, evidenced by the CONTINUAL hatred he receives despite being a face champion. The reason he's hated isn't because he's "controversial hence good", it's because he's tired, boring and shitty (IMO). While the shitty part may be subjective, the other two are not. It's about time someone replaces him. God damnit.
I hate Cena because: I find that he doesn't have a character. I enjoy wrestlers with characters. I now enjoy Umaga, because he has a character. I enjoy HBK, because he plays a character (way better as a heel, mind you). I enjoy McMahon, because he plays a character. I semi-enjoy Lashley, because now he's playing a character. What character does Cena have? A marine dude? FFS, the only thing he does that even remotely resembles a character is that damn salute thing he does, and even then it's highly contradicted by his immature, rambling, incoherent mic skills. That brings me to... His mic skills. They are shit. He's meant to be a tough guy, no? Why then, does a tough guy make penis references that a twelve year old would make, and why does he squeel every time he sees Marias boobs? This isn't the mic skills we need to see from a champion whose prime audience is in the 18-25 age demographic. This is shit. Apart from the subject matter, you've also got the fact that his mic skills seem kinda...forced, in a way. What he says seems a little pre-written, it's not organic, it doesn't flow. It is natural dialogue on par with comments such as "son of a diddly", or any of that other lame crap that Marge and Flanders have a habit of saying now. I'm not putting wrestling on the same level as The Simpsons, it's way shittier, but I'm saying that there needs to be at least a little semblance of realism in the dialogue. Cena doesn't provide. His wrestling skills are poor. Yes, so are a lot of other peoples skills, but that doesn't mean shit. All of the other wrestlers in the WWE can be shit, but that doesn't excuse the fact that John Cena is the WWE champion, and has been for three years! He is the trophy guy, and the trophy guy is shit! He does the same moves, he progresses in the same manner each and every damn match! So do a few others? WHO CARES? I very, very, very, very much doubt that in those wrestlers matches that you can predict that they're gonna start their progression at any given time, and even if you can (HBK occasionally), their progressions are at least exciting. How can you compare a flying elbow drop to a fucking "five knuckle shuffle", the lamest, worst rip off of the People's Elbow ever. Yes, the People's Elbow was a little shitty, but once more it provided exictement. The Rock did those awesome limb swivels with grace, and the audience loved catching the elbow pad. The move was ludicrous to such a degree, that it became enjoyable. Cena? No such luck. It's mediocre mediocre mediocre all the way. He also doesn't have a top lip. What kinda freak is he?
WHO CARES? We're talking about now, in this time of mediocrity, not what happened twenty years ago. Yeah, maybe Cena was ok a few years back. I personally don't care, because I'm pissed off with the product I'm seeing on TV now. He can be as good as he wants a few years ago, but it doesn't negate such an obvious logical fallacy, in that he's still shitty today! For the record, I could never enjoy Cena back in the day due to his white rapper gimmick, but I at least enjoyed hating him back then. I can't say the same now. It's quite sad (paraphrasing what Jafar said in relation to The Simpsons movie now) to see the WWE like this. It's like watching your drunk mother get up on stage at sing karaoke. It's not fun, it's just plain embarrassing. That's the way I feel about wrestling now, thanks mainly to such a tired, strained and unenjoyable title scene.
You keep saying this, as if it means something. It doesn't. I don't care why Cena is crap, I just care that Cena is crap. You just admitted that he's crap, and yet you're still trying to debate this? Good God.
I don't really care about what Vince has done in the past, once again, I care only for what he's doing now. No denying that he hogs the airtime, none at all. No denying that maybe he needs to get off the air. But still, his airtime is much lower than John Cena's. Go and watch RAW with two stopwatches this week (and next. Go and get yourself an average) and see who is on RAW for longer. I'm quite confident that I'll win. |
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| SRP76 | Apr 22 2007, 03:51 AM Post #62 |
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The Man. Any Questions?
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I used to see this argument a lot. "It's not him, it's the one-armed man". Fuck that. Every single Champion in history has had an automatic spot in Vince's ear. As a World Champion, it is Cena's JOB to come up with new ideas for his character, storylines, and matches, and pitch them. And, also as a World Champion, he has plenty of stroke to get things his way. Yet, people try their damndest to ignore that, and try to say, "oh, no, he's helpless! He can'T do that!". Yeah, bullshit. Explain how Hogan, Savage, Bret Hart, HBK, Austin, Rock, Triple H....explain how every damned one of those guys could call their shots, but "poor, hog-tied Cena" can't! It's simple. He either lacks the creative ability to do so, or he lacks the balls to use that ability. Either way, a person like that shouldn't be carrying a belt around, calling himself a World Champion. |
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| Nubochanozep | Apr 22 2007, 04:09 AM Post #63 |
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You said it SRP76.
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| MY85 | Apr 22 2007, 05:56 AM Post #64 |
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It's a fabulous new day, yes it is!
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Past century? John Cena didn't existed on WWF/E during the past century.
Three years... lol. 2, I'd say. So if you don't like Cena, stop watching Raw. Ain't it fucking simple? You only bother to watch Raw and based on only watching Raw and the WWE Title scene, you call the entire wrestling scene a disgrace. I'm sure that wrestling isn't the same thing as it was years ago, but that's no excuse to call the whole scene shit only based on Raw. The real problem with Cena is that both his fans and haters give him so much attention to the point that it proves that Cena is the most popular guy in the WWE, regardless of what you think of him. The best anyone could do is to ignore him. Another point I want to touch.
Vince keeps having his writers pushing the hell out of Cena and Orton. It will continue that way, unfortunately. Vince hogging less airtime than Cena? I could question that. But since you only bother to watch Raw, then you have no fucking idea how much WWE shoved the Vince/Trump feud all across the 3 brands. Every shithead involved in that feud (which I despised for the constant shoving of it) had at least one appearance on the 3 brands, but mostly Vince and Lashley hogged airtime on all three brands. And if it wasn't bad enough to see them all across the 3 brands, you had commercials reminding you of that goddamn feud. So, Cena doesn't always hog as much airtime as Vince does. And if Cena hogs airtime, it's not in an annoying fashion as Vince does it to promote a feud between Vince and someone else. Yes, it may be sickening to see Cena still as the WWE Champion, but it's not as sickening as to see Vince hog the airtime. I don't care which of them hogs the airtime more or who does it better or who plays their characther better, Vince is not a fucking wrestler and should stay away from a wrestling ring. |
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| _DL_ | Apr 22 2007, 07:00 AM Post #65 |
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BURN IT DOOOWWNNNNNNNN!
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Of all the news that goes around daily, there's really no "Cena" news, so maybe he is infact missing his balls to say something
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| Nubochanozep | Apr 22 2007, 08:11 AM Post #66 |
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Syntax error. "Of the past century" is what I meant.
Wrestlemania 2005-Wresltemania 2007. I...damnit. Fine, two years. It seems like three. Now the real fun begins.
This is a rather silly comment to make. I consider myself a pretty dedicated fan to the WWE, pledging my alleigence to them over the years, not succumbing to the immediate allure of TNA when it first started out, and by and large forking out a bit of money to continue to watch their product. I feel (and I'm not alone), that when you've given a corparation your business they at least owe a little bit to you in terms of quality service. They take my money, I expect quality. Now, you could say that if I take my business away from the WWE then they'll be forced to change. That's probably true (on a collective level), but I don't want to do that. I enjoy most of RAW every week, so I'd be losing out if I stopped watching. Unlike the rest of you, I don't sit and moan and groan about the supposed "abysmal" quality of RAW every week, I only complain about Cena. Do I stop watching when Cena is on TV? Yes, yes I do. I usually read or something.
You fail to realise what I've already stated. The WWE is structured around its WWE champion, Cena is that champion, therefore the WWE can be perceived as shit. It mightn't be your take on things, but it's certainly mine, and afterall this thread is basically a giant catalogue about why I dislike John Cena.
In other words, ignore the product? No, I've already stated that I don't want to do that. I'm also not sure about this supposed theory about booing equal to cheering. A negative is not equal to a positive, an electron is not equal to a proton, I fail to see why the world of wrestling is any different. I give Cena attention because I loathe him. It's absolutely foolish of you to hypothesise that through hating John Cena, that I'm somehow contributing towards his "popularity", assuming popularity is a good thing. Please people, let us stop with that particular point of view. It's a complete and utter contradiction.
Once more, this has only occured over the last two months or so. Before then, McMahons role has been fairly limited in its capacity. Don't dare compare Vince to Cena.
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| MY85 | Apr 22 2007, 08:56 AM Post #67 |
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It's a fabulous new day, yes it is!
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But if we're gonna talk about the worst WWE Champion of the past century, Cena wouldn't count since he never wrestled in WWE until 2002. So the worst would be Vince McMahon. But then again, Andre and Yokozuna had short reigns and Yokozuna lost the belt in fucked up way to Hogan. Whatever.
Basically, you ignore the other things WWE has and consider the whole ting as a shit due to Cena. That's just poor thinking. And your mentality is most likely that WWE is Raw, which is false. So I should think that WWE is just horseshit only to Cena? Fuck that. Raw isn't my favourite brand, but somehow it's the most popular and I still watch it due to the fact that HBK and some of the Raw heels are entertaining (except Orton and Masters). ECW has the best feud of all the three brands between the Originals and the New Breed (which I doubt you give a fuck about) and Smackdown! has the best World Champion and builds up good talent only to be sent to Raw to get pushed and/or misused.
Did I said "ignore the product"? Is Cena the entire product? God no. I said to ignore Cena (which is impossible in this thread, lol), not to ignore Raw entirely. And let's not deny that Cena gets the loudest reaction, positive or negative the reaction he gets. And to Vince, a loud reaction is a good reaction. Proves that Cena is the most popular guy in WWE and he'll keep pushing him to please his fans and have people like you tuning to Raw just hoping for the day he drops the belt. If we give no reaction to Cena, he'll suffer a change, which could be good or bad. I thought popularity was a standard to measure a show or a product.
Find some past Vince feuds, he hogs airtime. With Austin, it worked prety well. With Hogan in 2003, which I won't touch. And thanks to Vince, many people ended up loathing DX. I'm not saying Vince is a total disgrace, but the best is for him to not show up that much on tv and on feuds as well. And I can compare Vince to Cena if I want to.
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| Nubochanozep | Apr 22 2007, 09:48 AM Post #68 |
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You continue to not understand. Even when compared to such abysmal champions as Yokozuna, Cena can still rank among them as the worst. I'm probably hyperbolizing the situation a bit to make a point, but he IS that bad to be considered down amongst those champions. You know, the Yokozuna's, the (later) Hogans and the Ortons.
No, it's not poor thinking, it's considering things to be what they really are. Don't feed me some phoney baloney bullshit about the majority of fans giving three tosses about what happenes outside of the championship scene. It's not true. The attitude era was characterised by Austin. The Rock 'n' Wrestling era was characterised by Hogan. The '94-'97 period was characters by the feud between HBK and Hart. All of those periods, whether transitional or not were structured around the champion. Maybe you watch it to watch "exciting" womens matches, or maybe you find the most excitement in the Intercontinental title scene. I certainly don't, and I know the audience doesn't either. If they did, by now, things would have changed. The WWE has spent over 30 years structured around its world title, through the good times and the bad. It's clearly the most, with an absolute majority, part of the WWE. If it is shit, then it affects the whole company. As Foley mentioned in his book, "The WWF was only ever as good as its champion."
Ad hominem, tu quoque. Move on.
See above (x2)
Um...yes. You said to stop watching. It's not like not watching the Cena segments is going to make any difference, and that's what I'm doing now. At most, I can go on the internet and cause a fuss, and hope that somehow I'll convince people, who will go elsewhere and convince people who have been convinced by other like-minded individuals, eventually creating a chain-reaction of hatred. It's happened before.
I once again fail to see the relevance. Once more, he IS a face champion and he gets MORE booes than cheers. What's your point?
Once again, that's not the case. When a face champ is being booed, Vince knows that's not a good thing. Remember how Edge won the title at NYR last year? That was because Vince knew that Cena was failing dismally at being a champion. Notice how they started acknowledging his boos? They were making him a tweener. They know he's not popular, and it seems as if a few slow-pokes on the internet still haven't caught up to that idea.
See above
See above. |
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| MY85 | Apr 22 2007, 08:26 PM Post #69 |
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It's a fabulous new day, yes it is!
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You continue to not understand the difference between one century and the other. While all eras can be compared, Cena has not been a part of WWF/E during the past century. He can be claimed as the worst champion of the 21th century along with the likes of JBL, Orton and Mysterio. You're claiming that he's the worst of the 20th century, which can't be true due to his non-existence back then. He can be claimed as one of the worst in WWE history, which must be the one point you're trying to prove.
While most fans may think of the WWE Title scene as the most important thing, people start giving a fuck about other feuds outside that specific title hunt and give a fuck about other midcarders... well, it's not like all WWE fans tune in to see Cena, Orton, etc. The title scene in Raw has been horrible enough that some don't give a crap about it and look on other things WWE offers to be entertained.
He gets a reaction from both sides. While there's other wrestlers (which you don't give a fuck about) that get a lesser reaction than Cena, Cena gets a very high reaction. And you know it, tons of wrestling fans discuss about Cena everday, whetever it's to insult him, praise him or whatever, it proves that Cena is the most popular guy in WWE. I said popular, not that he's good or evil. You keep bitching about him and you're proving the point of his popularity (as in being common, not well-liked) or mainstream status.
And why Edge got a title reign taht lasted less than a month and lost it to Cena, who Vince knew he was failing dismally as you say? He makes a bunch of money for WWE and money is what counts most to Vince. And WWE's economical situation is founded on the marks in a wider way, not on people like you, me and others who aren't pleased with the actual situation of WWE. |
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| 4400TVJunkie | Apr 23 2007, 12:29 AM Post #70 |
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All hail King Booker!
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Bah, who really cares anymore? I think most people have just tuned Cena out which is the best thing to do. No matter what we think or say, Cena is not gonna leave the title scene anytime soon. He'll either be the champ or chasing the champ. |
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| Nubochanozep | Apr 23 2007, 01:12 AM Post #71 |
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... Um...a century means 100 years does it not? Of all the champions of the past 100 years, Cena is the worst (obvious hyperbole). You say "history", I say "Century" to try to emphasise the point. Once again, that's semantics. You understood what I was saying. Please move on and don't concern yourself with such trivial matters. Lol.
Yes, that is correct. I'm glad we agree. It's probable that the continuously lacking title scene of the past few years has contributed to the rather static ratings scores. Next case!
No. You're bound to understand it one day. I'm not to sure which pills you've been popping, MY85, but in Australia being booed while you're supposed to be getting cheered is certainly not a great measure of popularity. If Cena were a heel, and he was getting booed then yes, I would say that he's quite popular. Fact is, he's NOT supposed to be getting booed, he's supposed to be getting cheered and he is FAILING dismally at that. If I were a kid on the playground trying to make friends, and instead of being ignored I had buckets of citrus fruits thrown at me day after day, does that somehow make me popular? No! It makes me a total failure because I was trying to be popular (meaning succesful at being the type of person I wanted to be), and failed. In the same way, Cena tries to get cheers, but he is roultinely booed. He has failed to get the reaction that he and WWE management wanted, he fails, hence he's not popular.
Yes, once again, see above. I think that you've misinterpreted what the word 'popular' means. Allow me to clear up this source of cloudiness for you.
I don't see anything in there about attracting the opposite feeling that one wants. I see a bunch of definitions that say to me that Cena is probably the polar opposite of what constitutes popularity.
Yes, I agree. Unfortunately, I once again put forth the fact that Cena has failed to increase the ratings, PPV buyrates or attendance by a substantial amount. So not only do I not like him for clear and obvious reasons, but he's failing at being a succesful champion. Businesses aren't succesful if they don't grow, and right now, the WWE sure as hell ain't growing. |
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| 15 Shows | Apr 23 2007, 06:37 PM Post #72 |
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Aint cheatin aint tryin
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Yup. Cena sucks. |
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| TheObserver | Apr 26 2007, 04:31 PM Post #73 |
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Since this is a Cena thread lol, I just came across this column that to me was going a bit overboard on the way this guy perceives Cena to be. But like everything else, I'd like all of you to see it for yourself and comment on it.
Guess a good sum know his e-mail, and he probably gets ripped left and right, which is probably why he didn't give it here cause he'd definitely get an ear full from people or initially the IWC have read this I bet. |
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| SRP76 | Apr 26 2007, 10:53 PM Post #74 |
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The Man. Any Questions?
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This guy is complete fucking idiot. I actually read all the bullshit that spewed from his mouth, and I can't believe anybody could be so hardheaded. I would counter his so-called "arguments", but I won't lower myself. If anybody can't see why insinuating that John Cena "is the best wrestler in the world" and "he carries everybody he's ever been in the ring with", and "picking up ring steps is cooler than a German suplex" is wrong, then no amount of explaining would get through anyway. |
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| Nubochanozep | Apr 27 2007, 04:25 AM Post #75 |
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I was tempted to stop reading after I read the comment "John Cena is the best professional wrestler in the world", but that would have been mean. I then proceeded to wade through paragraph upon paragraph of misguided logic, faulty analysis and and shithouse understandings of near everything to do with wrestling. What a penis. |
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| TheObserver | Apr 27 2007, 06:15 AM Post #76 |
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That's why I said I bet he didn't leave his e-mail cause he'd hear alot of rage from the IWC.
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| MY85 | Apr 27 2007, 06:15 AM Post #77 |
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It's a fabulous new day, yes it is!
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The worse thing about the Cena hatred is that it became a sort of fashion thing or a poser thing... |
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| Nubochanozep | Apr 27 2007, 09:47 AM Post #78 |
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No, MY85, the worst thing is that people put forth that view in the first place. It's vastly misguided to say thatg the only reason why people dislike Cena is because it's the cool thing to do. In fact, I'd say that it's quite the opposite. Seeing as how everything I say about Cena IS true, then it must be the cool thing to defend Cena these days. After all, why would one put forth such a view that is so obviously incorrect? |
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| 15 Shows | Apr 27 2007, 03:48 PM Post #79 |
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Aint cheatin aint tryin
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I hated Cena from day 1. While everyone loved him, I hated him. I hated him when everyone hated him the first time. Ever since the first shitty rap I seen him do, I hated his guts. I actually like him better now. And that match on Monday does earn him some credit in my book. If he keeps it up, who knows maybe I'll accept him as champ. But it still won't make up for the past 2 years of him having my....I mean Triple H's belt. |
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| Lionheart | Apr 27 2007, 06:12 PM Post #80 |
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Heat Lifer
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When Cena became popular was the issue. Most people who initially disliked Cena simply hated the rapper gimic. The whole wide spread, Cena Bashing phase didn't start until he became more bullet proof than Superman. |
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| MY85 | Apr 28 2007, 12:00 AM Post #81 |
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It's a fabulous new day, yes it is!
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It's not about hating Cena being a cool thing. But why give him so much attention that he really doesn't deserve? Everyone, pro or hater, work in the same way, giving him attention. Therefore, Cena is the most talked guy on WWE. |
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| TapOutAngleLock | Apr 28 2007, 12:52 AM Post #82 |
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Ring Of Jankowski's Honor
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I am start to like Cena a little bit more. Did anyone watch Umaga vs Cena at the royal rumble? Did anyone watch Cena vs HBK on raw. I am not a Cena lover, I am just saying he is improving and getting better. Cena is better than Lashley and Batista combined. |
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| 15 Shows | Apr 28 2007, 02:15 AM Post #83 |
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Aint cheatin aint tryin
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Umm no, He isn't better then either by himself. But those 2 matches you mentioned were on my list for matches of the year. |
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| TapOutAngleLock | Apr 28 2007, 02:26 AM Post #84 |
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Ring Of Jankowski's Honor
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So if he is in MOTYC, that means he puts on good matches. And if you put on good matches your a entertaining pro wrestler. |
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| Nubochanozep | Apr 28 2007, 03:33 AM Post #85 |
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How in the holy fuck are two highly forced (as in, if he didn't have to improve he wouldn't) matches proof whatsoever of a marked improvement? Someone explain this to me. Yes, before he was on a score of about -95.5% to me. Now he's at about -93.7%. Don't let two matches buy you over, fellows. |
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| TapOutAngleLock | Apr 28 2007, 03:38 AM Post #86 |
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Ring Of Jankowski's Honor
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All I am saying is Cena is better than Lashley and Batista. |
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| 15 Shows | Apr 28 2007, 06:37 AM Post #87 |
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Aint cheatin aint tryin
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All Im saying is your wrong. But who cares. Cena proved he CAN do it. He just doesnt want to. So yeah, he can burn in hell for all I care. And also, Umaga and HBK carried him for the most part in those matches. |
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| Nubochanozep | Apr 28 2007, 08:27 AM Post #88 |
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I didn't see the Umaga ones, but I'll back up what 15 Jimmy's said right then about the HBK/Cena match. If I were to assign it a ratio, it'd be about 60:40 in terms of HBK carrying Cena. |
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| Ashy Shaq | Apr 28 2007, 05:44 PM Post #89 |
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The Silver Standard
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No
Yes |
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| 4400TVJunkie | Apr 29 2007, 12:27 AM Post #90 |
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All hail King Booker!
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I cannot stand Lashley at all. He's not in any capacity interesting. |
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7:14 PM Jul 11