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Who would you prefer for the American Democratic Leader?
Hilary Clinton 8 (50%)
Barack Obama 8 (50%)
Total Votes: 16
Election Poll
Topic Started: Jan 7 2008, 09:19 PM (622 Views)
L69
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I know I am a UK citizen, however, this is getting alot of coverage from the news over here, and I was thinking about the person who is more popular on this Forum to be the Democratic front runner for the White House.

Obama or Clinton?

If I were a US citizen, I would vote for Obama because he seems to offer more in the way of the world, and not just the USA, and that I respect, as well as the fact that I hate the Clinton clan and that a Black President would be awesome to see how he would govern the USA and help the world.
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Cybrus
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STAY HYPED!!!
Bill Clinton has been my favorite President to serve office since I've been alive. I know Hilary isn't Bill, but putting a Clinton back in office is a good thing to me. I would like to see Hilary take office since it would be historic on so many levels (first female president, first spouse of a former president to become president, Bill would be the first gentleman). I think she'll take the democratic position in the autumn elections.
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Purple Marauder
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I'm not asking this is a "What the hell?" way, I just want to know: Why was Bill the best President to you?
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Cybrus
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The U.S. economy was at one of the highest and most stable points in history, the U.S. was respected by most of the countries in the world, the U.S. dollar was one of the highest ranked currencies of the world, and over all it just seemed like a fun time. Ever since Bush has come into office, the economy has dropped to shits, the U.S. dollar has decreased significantly in value, the U.S. is hated almost unanimously world-wide, and all you ever see from the president is scare tactics.

Since you asked me to support my claim, I must ask, who, in your opinion, has been the best president since your existence? Of course, this means you have a few more presidents to choose from, but I'm thinking the two names that most people are going to choose are Regan or Clinton.
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Jknight253
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Hillary... A lot of people I know thought Bill Clinton was the best president like Husband like Wife I guess :lol:
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Purple Marauder
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Honestly, I've never really been a "fan" of any President. All have had both good and bad sides. As far as popularity, I'd probably go with the two you mentioned. Regan was cool because the economy was booming when he was in office (even though he got blamed for the deficit when he left) and he got to take credit for helping to end the Cold War. Plus, he survived an assassination attempt. He and Clinton were both charismatic people that knew how to show the people what they wanted to see.
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Kame

I liked Bill, but Hillary absolutely blows. I hated her back then and now, I hate her even more because she's running. Barack, all the way, even though I prefer the republican party over the both of them.
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Nubochanozep
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Clinton:

-supports the death penalty
-takes large donations from pharmecutical companies for her election campaign (perpetuate the status quo of shitty healthcare in america, man!)
-has a cloudy view of iraq

Obama, from what I've heard, doesn't support the death penalty and has maintained a morally sound position on Iraq since he was elected to office. I'm not sure about his position on taking donations from companies that typically seek to distance the consumer from drugs and medicine without a hefty sum of cash, but I'd be willing to bet that he's probably the better choice to change that than Hillary "status-quo" Clinton.

The fact that she takes donations from a pharmecutical company isn't so much the problem, it's the massive amount of corparate backing that scares me somewhat. As I said, to elect Clinton would be an unfortunate return to the status quo of privatise this and ignore that. I'm not saying Obama might not turn out the same, but all signs point to him being less inclined to follow the status quo than any other candidate, bar Ron Paul. Of course, I find Ron Paul's idea to be rid of government to be somewhat terrifying, even if he does have his heart in the right place (power to the citizen).

I might also add that Obama is charismatic as hell, and has no history around the world. While many may view that as a bad thing in terms of experience, I'd view it as a clean slate. Clinton has a relationship with an ex-President who didn't exactly have the most popular standing around the world. Better than Bush, certainly, but he wasn't unanimously liked. Clinton will nessecarily be associated with the foreign policies of her husband. Obama on the other hand has no history and can forge ties with other countries at will. He's also charismatic as hell, as opposed to the sometimes mechanical Clinton. Charisma and "likeability" certainly goes a long way in terms of foreign affairs. Look at what Bolton did for the US. :lol:

So uh, IF I were American, I'd vote Democratic obviously. Why? Standard reasons. Republicans are more inclined to adopt a conservative agenda and are more inclined to privatise more things and spend less on social services, which according to HDI indices, is never a good policy. Since I'd be voting Democratic, I'd go for Obama for all the reasons already listed.

But I can't vote so poo to you all.

Cybrus
 
I would like to see Hilary take office since it would be historic on so many levels (first female president, first spouse of a former president to become president, Bill would be the first gentleman).


Is this to say that you vote for a president because it's historic, or just that you'd find it entertaining to see all those things. Not that I'm judging you if you do vote based on that. Almost all two party systems round the developed world these days have converged on far too many policies, so that voting for something trivial like that can be regarded as a legit reason for voting. :lol:

Cybrus
 
The U.S. economy was at one of the highest and most stable points in history, the U.S. was respected by most of the countries in the world, the U.S. dollar was one of the highest ranked currencies of the world, and over all it just seemed like a fun time. Ever since Bush has come into office, the economy has dropped to shits, the U.S. dollar has decreased significantly in value, the U.S. is hated almost unanimously world-wide, and all you ever see from the president is scare tactics.


Interestingly, they say economic policies show their effects about ten years or so after they were put in place. That would make Reagan and his economic policies the reasoning behind the strong US economy during Clintons reign. But uh, there's another ugly side to Reagan's economic policies.

Cybrus
 
I'm thinking the two names that most people are going to choose are Regan or Clinton.


http://www.pollingreport.com/wh-hstry.htm

Lincoln - 18%
Reagan - 16%
Kennedy - 14%
Clinton - 13%
Roosevelt - 9%
Washington - 7%
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JD Storm
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Cybrus
Jan 7 2008, 04:35 PM
The U.S. economy was at one of the highest and most stable points in history, the U.S. was respected by most of the countries in the world, the U.S. dollar was one of the highest ranked currencies of the world, and over all it just seemed like a fun time. Ever since Bush has come into office, the economy has dropped to shits, the U.S. dollar has decreased significantly in value, the U.S. is hated almost unanimously world-wide, and all you ever see from the president is scare tactics.

Since you asked me to support my claim, I must ask, who, in your opinion, has been the best president since your existence? Of course, this means you have a few more presidents to choose from, but I'm thinking the two names that most people are going to choose are Regan or Clinton.

i love you, man. :hug:




i'm not going to say that Obama is a bad politican or anything, but i fear that he lacks the experience to be President. has he even finished his first term in Congress, yet?

with Hillary, while she doesn't have much experience, either, she's at least had the benefit of learning from Bill's past mistakes. she's had the benefit of seeing all of Bill's successes & failures up close & personal. i feel that can be highly important.
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Nubochanozep
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Complaints about experience aren't really too valid imo. The President depends upon the public service and unless you were a vice or member of cabinet (which doesn't apply to either Clinton or Obama) then you're not going to have too much familiarity with them. There's not really all that much a President can do that would be a result of inexperience. They're advised heavily and they act as a team. Also, I doubt there's too much that Clinton could have learned from Bills sucesses and failures that Obama couldn't have learned. He's not exactly a dumbass.

And in any case, Bush had a fair amount of experience in government and look what happened there.
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L69
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I don't know what the hell Jimmy was talking about, however, I have to agree with most of his views.
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Nubochanozep
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I'm like Shawn Michaels circa 1997. You may not like me, but you know I'm good. :cool:
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L69
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Jimmy C
Jan 9 2008, 09:46 AM
I'm like Shawn Michaels circa 1997. You may not like me, but you know I'm good. :cool:

Admitted.

I heard the NH results with Clinton coming out on top, no worries... 48 more states to go.
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Cybrus
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Jimmy C
Jan 7 2008, 11:43 PM
Cybrus
 
I'm thinking the two names that most people are going to choose are Regan or Clinton.


http://www.pollingreport.com/wh-hstry.htm

Lincoln - 18%
Reagan - 16%
Kennedy - 14%
Clinton - 13%
Roosevelt - 9%
Washington - 7%

You quoted me out of context. I stated that, when choosing out of presidents that have served during their life times, most people here are most likely to pick either pick Regan or Clinton since these two have been the most revered Republican and Democratic Presidents of the past, what, 30 years. But your poll did support my theory that Clinton and Regan are two highly respected former Presidents.

Quote:
 
Is this to say that you vote for a president because it's historic, or just that you'd find it entertaining to see all those things.

The latter.
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Nubochanozep
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That was more of a case of not reading something properly than quoting out of context. My bad.
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L69
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According to people that study Government and Politics... it's Obama for the win.

Better policies apparently.
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Cybrus
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According to the voters, Hillary for the win. :tu:

The Independent
 
But the next big test is the Democratic primary in South Carolina, with a huge pool of black voters, on 26 January. He may win it back. The battle for momentum – and eventually the nomination – is only beginning.


SC is a big Democratic primary? Hell, I thought this was a red state all over. There's hope yet. Go blue! :lol:
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L69
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Cybrus
Jan 10 2008, 12:58 AM
According to the voters, Hillary for the win. :tu:

The Independent
 
But the next big test is the Democratic primary in South Carolina, with a huge pool of black voters, on 26 January. He may win it back. The battle for momentum – and eventually the nomination – is only beginning.


SC is a big Democratic primary? Hell, I thought this was a red state all over. There's hope yet. Go blue! :lol:

So I take it you will be voting or going to the rallies then Cy.
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Lionheart
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I'm peronally more of a supporter of Obama than Hilary. I really agree with his stance on Stem Cell research and the Middle East situation. BUt If Hilary wins the prelims, I guess I'll show my support for her.
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JD Storm
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Jimmy C
Jan 9 2008, 03:57 AM
Complaints about experience aren't really too valid imo. The President depends upon the public service and unless you were a vice or member of cabinet (which doesn't apply to either Clinton or Obama) then you're not going to have too much familiarity with them. There's not really all that much a President can do that would be a result of inexperience. They're advised heavily and they act as a team. Also, I doubt there's too much that Clinton could have learned from Bills sucesses and failures that Obama couldn't have learned. He's not exactly a dumbass.

And in any case, Bush had a fair amount of experience in government and look what happened there.

i'm not going to say that Obama is stupid, by any means. i just feel more comfortable with candidates with a little more experience.


my main reason for liking Hillary over Obama is that she was actually with Bill, when he was president. she was actually with him when he was having major problems, as well as when things went great for him. actually being with a sitting president is a unique view. Obama, like the rest of us, had to see things from a distance. he doesn't have the benefits of actually being in the Oval Office to see all the pressure, without having to actually make the decisions. that's a perspective that few people get to actually have.




of course, i think Obama does have several strong traits, too. he's highly charismatic, which is highly important, IMO. he comes across as being highly intelligent.
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Nubochanozep
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History says it doesn't make any difference. Look at Bush. Not only was he govenor of Texas, but he also got to see his daddy run the White House. He turned out to be one of the worst Presidents in history.
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JD Storm
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you're basing history off of Bush? forget the fact that Bush Jr. wasn't actually living with daddy, like Hillary was with Bill. forget the fact that Bush was a C Average student, at best. forget the fact that Bush has/had an alleged drinking and/or cocaine habit......and yes, i'm only saying "alleged", because i can't actually prove anything.


if you're going to judge history, don't judge it off recent events only. go back a little further. the Bush's aren't the only Presidents to be related to each other, in such close fashion.


i believe the Roosevelts were closely related.....not sure how. how does history view them?

if you want to go back even earlier, we had a father/son situation early in American history. i think one was John Quincy Adams......i forget the other. not entirely sure if i even have the first name right, at the moment. been too long, since i needed that info.

all i remember is that the father held the office for a couple terms. not that long after he had it, the son took office (a term or two after daddy had it).

anyway......i'd still like to ask how history would've viewed them.

shit......if you were to judge all Americans, purely off the actions and/or stupidity of Bush, Jr......then all Americans would be viewed as dumbasses.
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TapOutAngleLock
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If Hilary wins the presidency election, are economy will be just as bad as Englands or Canadas.
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Cybrus
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Considering our economy was at one of the highest points in history the last time a Clinton was in the white house, then I completely disagree with you, TOAL. I know it would be foolish to say "Well, Hilary will do what Bill did", but I think she will be very similar to what Bill was, and that would be a very good thing for the U.S.
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Nubochanozep
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JD Storm
 
Blah blah blah


Regardless of what happened beforehand with these supposed father/son teams, you cannot deny that Bush Jnr. had prior experience on how to govern! And he sucked!

Maybe you're willing to place your faith in this whole experience thing, but when I see conflicting evidence I say to myself "hey maybe that's not true!"

EDIT: Re: the economy - Most people that use that word haven't the slightest understanding of economics, or economic policy. I know I sure as hell don't. That's why I don't use the term.

Cybrus
 
Considering our economy was at one of the highest points in history the last time a Clinton was in the white house, then I completely disagree with you, TOAL. I know it would be foolish to say "Well, Hilary will do what Bill did", but I think she will be very similar to what Bill was, and that would be a very good thing for the U.S.


I'm intrigued. What did Clinton do that was so beneficial for the US economy?
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Cybrus
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I feel rather lazy at the moment, so instead of manually typing out examples, I'll just copy and past from a news site (BBC News), which I think lends more credibility to my claims anyway:

Quote:
 
Economic boom

Mr Clinton's most enduring legacy is likely to be the economic boom which began shortly before he took office in 1992.

During the eight years of the presidency, the economy expanded by 50% in real terms, and by the end of his tenure the US had a gross national product of $10,000bn - one quarter of the entire world economic output.

The booming US economy has brought economic benefits right across the income spectrum.

The unemployment rate has dropped by half, to 4%, a 40-year-low, while the economy has created some 15 million jobs.

The stock market grew even faster - by more than three times - creating thousands of millionaires among middle class stockholders, and employees of fast-growing companies like Microsoft - before the high tech index, the Nasdaq, fell back sharply this year.


Quote:
 
Inequality

The US has the highest rate of inequality of any industrialised country, and that inequality increased during Mr Clinton's years in office.


Quote:
 
Healthy public finances

The booming economy and strict controls over government spending has meant that Mr Clinton also leaves office with the public finances in their strongest shape for decades.

The Office of Management and Budget is projecting a surplus of $5,000bn over the next 10 years, enough to pay off the entire Federal debt and fund Social Security, the state pension scheme, for several more decades.

But that position has been reached after a long political struggle.

Mr Clinton decided early in his term of office that debt reduction, rather than tax cuts, was the best way to preserve economic growth.

That policy, backed by Mr Greenspan, contributed to the close working relationship that developed between the Fed and the US Treasury - but left little scope for redistribution.

It also set the scene for a confrontation between Mr Clinton and Congressional Republicans over what spending to cut in order to reach a balanced budget.

After two government shutdowns when agreement could not be reached on the budget, one that lasted nearly six weeks, Mr Clinton appeared to win the battle - and the 1996 election.


Quote:
 
Saving Social Security

Mr Clinton did manage to preserve spending on certain key programmes, most notably the huge and popular entitlement programmes for the elderly, Social Security and Medicare.

"Save social security first" was the motto coined by President Clinton in the midst of the budget struggle, and he has succeeded in ensuring that at least part of the government surplus will be reserved to fund the future deficits of these programmes.


Quote:
 
International trade tensions

Mr Clinton left an even more ambiguous legacy in the area of international trade, and leaves office with the US more exposed than ever before to the international economy.

The US trade deficit - the gap between the goods the US sells to the rest of the world and the amount it buys - has ballooned to over $400bn, financed by foreign buyers of US stocks, bonds and companies.

That investment has been boosted by a strong dollar poll which also helped keep inflation in check.

Under Mr Clinton, the US Treasury sanctioned a limited intervention in foreign currency markets, first to save the yen from a catastrophic decline, and second, and less effectively, to try and boost the value of the euro, the single currency for Europe.

The Fed's interest rate cuts in 1998 also helped stabilise the world financial system and prevent the Asian crisis spilling over into a global catastrophe - at the cost of increasing imports to the US even further.


Of course, I'm not saying that Clinton's reign as President was flawless. Don't misconstrue my support for (Bill) Clinton as an act of blind patriotism.
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Nubochanozep
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Oh I wasn't. Anyway, that was all quite interesting. I'd be interested to hear if there was any instances of some government sectors (healthcare, education blah blah) that were starved of funding, on account of his tightening of purse strings. Although, that paragraph on "save social security first" seems to indicate that wouldn't be the case.
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Cybrus
Jan 13 2008, 09:26 PM
Considering our economy was at one of the highest points in history the last time a Clinton was in the white house, then I completely disagree with you, TOAL. I know it would be foolish to say "Well, Hilary will do what Bill did", but I think she will be very similar to what Bill was, and that would be a very good thing for the U.S.

Hilary said she wants to have Canada's health care. Look what happened to canada and england health care when they gave it for free, both countires went bankrupt. So we will go bankrupt if hilary becomes Pres.
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Cybrus
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I think a more centralized health care system would be beneficial to the U.S., especially considering how many Americans are without health care of any kind, currently.

That said, just because Hilary says she wants a centralized health care system (which is a good idea), it doesn't necessarily mean it would happen if she did become President. Keep in mind that there are a lot of checks and balances in government. She has to get her ideas past the Congress before it would even stand a chance of happening.
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Nubochanozep
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TOAL
 
Hilary said she wants to have Canada's health care. Look what happened to canada and england health care when they gave it for free, both countires went bankrupt. So we will go bankrupt if hilary becomes Pres.


What are you, a retard?
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