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Lance Storm Criticizes Undertaker
Topic Started: Feb 20 2008, 11:46 PM (306 Views)
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Adapting MMA

February 19, 2008

I want to debate something this week, but I’m going to have to walk gently as I do not want to offend the man that I’m going to talk about. I have a world of respect for the man I want to discuss this week and consider him one of the all time greats, but there is something that has been driving me nuts for a week or two now and I’m curious what others think, and need to speak my mind. What I want to talk about this week is the Undertakers new finishing hold, because I really don’t like it and I’m curious if I’m alone in this opinion.

For those of you who haven’t been watching SmackDown lately, the Undertaker is now using a Gogoplata Choke (a legit MMA choke) as his new finisher. The hold, for lack of a better description, is a variation of a triangle choke executed from your back where you wrap your one leg out and around your opponents shoulder and then back under his chin and then pull his head down across your shin with your hands. To execute the hold you have to use both legs and both hands while lying on your back.

I realize that MMA is getting very popular and I understand the desire to adapt that style into pro-wrestling, but I’ve always had a huge logic problem with using “choke” holds as a finish in pro-wrestling. Even back when TAZ got his Taz-mission choke over huge, I always hated it. Choking is of course illegal in pro-wrestling, and you can argue and debate the “blood choke” vs. “air choke” as much as you want, but unless there is a means by which to clearly explain the difference to your general fan base, it is just confusing to reprimand wrestlers all show about choking and then announce that someone has choked out his opponent for the win.

Even if we put that “choke” issue aside, this is a poor choice for a finish on so many levels. For starters, any move done from you back is likely a poor pro-wrestling finish. In MMA being on you back is not a bad thing, because you can’t be pinned, but in pro-wrestling that is the worst possible position to be in. For years, since pro-wrestling’s inception actually, fans have been educated to the fact that if you are on your back and someone is on top of you, you are in a bad position. Someone as dominant and powerful as the Undertaker should almost never be in this position, let alone put himself in it voluntarily. I remember watching the AWA as a fan and hearing a commentator joke that Nick Bockwinkle (AWA World Champ at the time) doesn’t even sleep on his back, and I remember thinking that was such a great line because staying off your back is the single most important thing in wrestling.

As a one-time surprise counter (provided the announcers knew what it was and could explain it) I could see this adding a new dimension to the Undertaker. When he used it to defeat Big Daddy V it made some degree of sense. Taker faced with a 500 pound opponent, found himself in a position where perhaps he could not tombstone or choke slam the 500 pounder, and after getting beat down to the ground by one of his biggest opponents yet, had to demonstrate skill rather than his more common power to get the win. This past week on SD he used the hold on Matt Striker and I found myself groaning in disapproval for the first time ever watching The Undertaker wrestle. (Actually I have groaned during other Undertaker matches but I don’t think it is fair to count matches he had with El Gigante, the man can’t work miracles).

In my opinion after nearly 2 decades of Destruction, The Dead Man should not have to leave his feet to lay waste to Matt Striker. This should be a brief confrontation where Taker is left standing tall while Striker lays at his feet, closing the segment with a great visual of one man up and one man down. Instead after choke slamming Striker, which has laid out many men to date, me included, he tied him up and rolled to his back for the submission, ending the segment with both men down on the mat, a far less visual image to close the segment; it just seemed so unnecessary, and in my opinion even brought he crowd down rather than up, after the choke slam.

It’s a poor position visually, takes a fair bit of time to hook in, and isn’t going to be easy to counter in and out of in big matches to tease false finishes. That doesn’t even take into account he fact that with Takers incredibly long legs this hold is going to be very hard to properly hook on a wide variety of people, and will likely never be as over as the Last Ride or Choke Slam. I think the old adage, “If it aint broke, don’t fix it” applies so perfectly when it comes to the Undertaker. Taker is arguably the greatest gimmick ever created as well as one of the best working big man of all time, and has two incredibly over finishes already. I don’t understand nor see the need to switch his character to that of a submission wrestler. To me The Undertaker is the Phenom, the Dead Man, or even the American Bad Ass, a guy who lays waste to those in his path, not a technically sound submission wrestler who can beat you on the ground. If you are going to play the MMA card, I see Taker as more a Chuck Liddell than a Royce Gracie.

That’s my 2-cents, I’ll be curious to hear yours.

Lance Storm

http://www.stormwrestling.com/021908.html


It's a bit long, but I think he makes a good point about Undertaker using the Gogoplata.
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MY85
It's a fabulous new day, yes it is!
Didn't Taker use the Gogoplata once against Angle in No Way Out only to lose via pinfall while still holding Angle?

Oh, I really agree with the part about Matt Striker and Taker.
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Kraul

I disagree with Storm on the whole "choke not being a proper finisher in wrestling" thing, but I agree that 'Taker shouldn't be doing them (unless it's the old 'Taker choking the life out of his victim because he's a nasty heel thing with his hand).

I've never liked 'Taker's moveset since he's started to use holds and all that. The Undertaker is one of those wrestlers that not only could get away with using very few holds, but he actually should use very few on very rare occasions. He's supposed to be super intimidating (arguably the most intimidating guy in WWE history) and he's very large, so simple pummeling his opponents like he used to would work. Slapping on a triangle hold or whatever just seems off and out of character.
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TapOutAngleLock
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Is Lance Storm saying he doesnt like any finishing holds where the wrestler hwo performs the move is laying down because a couple finishers have u laying on the ground like the ankle lock and cross face. Or is he saying he doesnt like finishers that were the wrestler is on his back or is he saying he doesnt like big men using submission holds.
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Kraul

He's saying that he both doesn't think chokes of any kind should be moves in wrestling that can be used without being disqualified and moves where you are on your back when applying it to your opponent (like with the Tazzmision).

A move like the ankle lock or crossface is neither.
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MY85
It's a fabulous new day, yes it is!
I think he also complains because when Taker does the move, he's prone to a pinfall position.
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MakeYourself85
Feb 20 2008, 06:51 PM
Didn't Taker use the Gogoplata once against Angle in No Way Out only to lose via pinfall while still holding Angle?

That was the Triangle choke. They look almost the same, however.

Quote:
 
Is Lance Storm saying he doesnt like any finishing holds where the wrestler hwo performs the move is laying down because a couple finishers have u laying on the ground like the ankle lock and cross face. Or is he saying he doesnt like finishers that were the wrestler is on his back or is he saying he doesnt like big men using submission holds.

I think he's saying he doesn't like the move because for 1: You're on your back because you could get easily pinned; 2: The move is a legit choke hold and in wrestling those aren't allowed or something like that; and 3: The Undertaker shouldn't be doing those kinds of moves.
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MY85
It's a fabulous new day, yes it is!
If Taker did the hold on someone like BDV or Khali, he wouldn't have much problems with it. If he did that on someone like Matt Striker, it would be unnecessary.

I don't mind having Taker use different moves from time to time. After all, many people complain about many wrestlers using the same moveset. If they can use a new move, better...
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WWEFootos48
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From a psylog-yadda yadda yadda standpoint, I totally agree with what he is saying. It's a very effective move for taking down a really big person, but when you're taking on someone like Striker, or even somebody less than the size of Khali or Viscera, it's completely unnecessary. He's built up many moves over the past two 'decades of destruction' where he doesn't have to pull out a perceived "chokehold" to beat somebody he could easily take out with a tombstone.

And also for his other argument, he's arguing that a move like that is effective in MMA where you can't be pinned, but looks bad in the WWE because it could easily be countered into a pin; it's kind of a risk he doesn't need to take, since, as said earlier, he could take his opponent out with just about any other move. That NWO '06 match pretty much ended with Angle countering the triangle choke into a pin, showing what the risk of the move can do.
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Nubochanozep
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I agree with storm entirely
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JVicious
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When I saw Taker give Striker the choke, it looked very awkward and unneeded. Using it on bigger opponents like Khali or BDV yes, but anyone smaller then 6'5, no.

I thought Taker was going to use it every odd match, like HHH would use the Indian Death Lock an odd occassions. But it seems like its going to become a regular and I'm not a fan of it.
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Would anyone happen to have a link to Undertaker using the move on Striker?
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L69
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I don't like the move full stop used on anyone. Why do something to win a match when a chokeslam could do it.

It's really stupid.
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WWEFootos48
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It's funny how 10 people here pretty much repeated the same thing about how the move is used. :lol:
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MY85
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Would it be credible if Taker used the move against... Cena, whom according to what WWE wants you to believe is "the toughest guy in the company"?
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