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Bret Hart Involved in Verbal Incident
Topic Started: Jun 29 2008, 11:04 PM (900 Views)
Terrible Fry
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PWMania
 

According to a report by The Wrestling Observer/Figure Four Online, a rather interesting incident took place at the Class of 2008 "Hall of Fame" dinner in Waterloo, Ontario last night.

While an induction had taken place earlier in the day on Saturday, during Bret Hart's speech for his father Stu Hart, Bret mentioned Greg Oliver of Slam Wrestling who had accepted the Jim Melby Memorial Award for wrestling journalism along with writing partner Steve Johnson. Bret reportedly went off on Oliver in his speech and talked about the sacrifices the wrestlers have made and loved ones lost in the business and how "one of us" doesn't deserve to be here.

He basically stated either he would go or Oliver would have to go. Some of the older wrestlers in the crowd gave Hart a standing ovation for what he said. Based on what is known, Oliver didn't leave despite Johnson attempting to leave to try and prevent a bad situation from starting. When Oliver didn't leave, Hart did along with some other wrestlers and it created what was described as a very ugly vibe. Bret's attack on Oliver is believed to be a result of Oliver's book "Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame: The Canadians" where he listed Bret Hart at No. 14 behind same rather non-popular wrestlers among the greatest Canadian wrestlers of all time. While Oliver did acknowledge him as one of the best known Canadian wrestlers of all time, he added, "Hart can hardly claim to be the best ever."

Footage of the event was filmed so expect it to appear soon.
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Darren
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The Best a Man can Get
Bret Hart's a jerk, even if Gregs opinion was worth shit, he shouldn't get pissy because some writer doesn't rate him. Get over yourself Bret... most of us have...
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Nubochanozep
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Bret Hart is a hero and I will always side with him. Go Bretty!
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Darren
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No I'm sick of hearing from him, anything published, anything posted on a site about Bret Hart is him bitching, I don't think I've read anything positive from him about the wrestling business in years... I mean if you were in that position would you really be that ignorant to make a speech directed at how unwanted the person was at the event... I'm sure the daggar in his back was proof enough Bret... we get it, pink spandex is cool, and so are you...
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MY85
It's a fabulous new day, yes it is!
Darren
Jun 29 2008, 07:57 PM
Bret Hart's a jerk, even if Gregs opinion was worth shit, he shouldn't get pissy because some writer doesn't rate him. Get over yourself Bret... most of us have...

I agree. :tu:

Everyone flat-out insists that Bret MUST be the Greatest Of All Time, or if not, Top 3 or Top 5 material. He's a great wrestler, but I wouldn't put him in a Top 10 list.
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Nubochanozep
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Yes, well fortunately your opinion means shit, especially compared to Bret Hart's. And thus, Hart's opinion of himself is most important of all!

Seriously though, guy was a fantastic wrestler/entertainer who was treated like shit far too many times. He deserves to chuck a tantrum if he wants.
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Darren
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Yeah great wrestler but bitter man. I hope that in 10 years when I have settled in the workforce that I'm still not bitter with Michelle for not re-filling the tea pot back, 5 years ago.
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Kraul

Regardless of how unfortunate he may have been around the final years of his career, the guy does this kind of stuff too often.

It doesn't so much take away from his career, but it definately tarnishes his image overall when most of what people hear coming from Bret Hart is him whining about someone - especially people and incidents that happened ten years ago.
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Nubochanozep
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Yes but that's like subtracting 1 per year from a score of 100,000,000. The difference is negligible. :grin:
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WWEFootos48
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God
I could just imagine that, like one of those kid reporters coming up to him:

Reporter: Hey, Bret, what is your opinion about Survivor...

(Bret gets a very angry look on his face, as if he's about to punch the kid)

Reporter: The reality show?


No, but seriously, I never really was a fan of Bret. I guess because when I started watching all that was seen of him was someone who was bitter over the whole Survivor Series thing; hell, even the first time I heard of the Survivor Series thing (I think it was on Wrestling With Shadows when they still ran that on A&E) I sided with Vince. I guess he forgot wrestling was a business, and in a business, you have to do what the boss is told; and if he tells you to drop the belt to someone else in what was probably your last appearance with the company, you have to do the job, no questions asked! That's just my opinion, I don't want to start a debate about it, but basically I don't hate the guy, but I haven't really seen too much of him to rate him as a wrestler to rate him in my book. But I do consider his match against Owen at Summerslam '94 as my favorite cage match of all-time...
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Nubochanozep
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You do as the boss tells you unless what the boss tells you to do spits on a dedicated 13 year career.

EDIT: In essence, I don't believe that business overrules humanity.
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Darren
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It was a tough decision though I mean this wasn't just leaving a wrestler go, this was leaving him go to the opposition. WCW were prone to give the ole kidney punch, so Bret running off with the belt would have been disasterous... I don't see any reason why Bret shouldn't have to put someone over to benefit the company when he's left...
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Kraul

Bret refusing to lose the belt on his way out was selfish and unprofessional.

When a champion, especially a world champion, is leaving a company, it's expected the champion loses the belt on the way out. It gives benefits the company they're leaving and it benefits, or at least has the potential to benefit, whoever beats the champ. Refusing to lose the belt because you don't like the guy they want you to lose it to and it's your hometown (for Bret, Canada as a whole tended to be his hometown) is very unprofessional and reflects badly on the stubborn champ.

Now you could argue that it was unprofessional for Vince to put Bret in that scenario, to screw him over that night, and/or to compromise Bret's longterm plans with the WWF. A lot of that was no doubt unprofessional behavior, but that doesn't excuse Bret's behavior. Bret could've and should've been a pro and done what was expected of him. If he wanted to protest before, after, and during. Fine. But do it. Instead, he chose to be selfish and petty.

And since then, almost every public speech or interview he gives is overflowing with Bret Hart whining about his misfortune and playing the victim. It was okay years ago because it was all still fresh, but after ten years, he should get over it already and move on with life. And not try to piss and moan to anyone that will listen.
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WWEFootos48
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God
And besides, it was apparently Vince himself who helped Bret get in touch with WCW, and negotiate a $3 million a a year contract. It's not like Vince knocked him out the door; he said that having Bret on the roster was not worth it financially, and did everything possible to help him get to WCW. Then Bret went and refused to job in his last match. Really, that's what happened.
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Darren
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Wow I get slaughterd by Bret Hart marks everytime I voice my annoyance at his whining, I didn't expect back up!
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Kraul

:lol:
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WWEFootos48
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Well again, as I said, I don't hate the guy, but I think you can only go so far with the negative comments (him talking, I mean). He even said he refused to do the '06 Hall of Fame ceremony if Shawn Michaels was there. Seriously, he has to let go. Shawn was just doing what he felt was right for business, and isn't even "that guy" anymore. Besides, it was almost 9 years past at the time. :lol:

If the pope can forgive the guy who shot him, I think Bret can forgive the guy who stood up for his boss and did what he believed was the right thing, nothing more.
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Nubochanozep
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I don't excuse his behaviour, friends, so these long winded posts weren't necessary. I just think that he deserves to chuck a tantrum if he wants, because regardless of whether or not his actions were wrong, he was treated like a piece of garbage.

And please, haters, let's not forget that Bret agreed to lose the belt to ANYONE other than Shawn Michaels, which I can understand because HBK seemed like a bit of an asshole.
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Darren
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Which is ironic as Bret seems like quite the asshole... It's not his decision to make, the company head chose Michaels so you know... tough shit Bret...
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Kraul

Yeah, pretty much.

Bret doesn't call the shots. He can complain and request something different, but at the end of the day, he wasn't in charge and should've just done his job.
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Purple Marauder
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By: Bob Ryder
7/3/2008 1:04:20 PM 

For those who missed the news report over the weekend, Bret Hart made a complete jackass out of himself at the Tragos/Thesz Hall of Fame ceremony on Saturday night. While accepting an award on his father's behalf, Hart directed comments at Greg Oliver and Steven Johnson. Oliver and Johnson were invited guests of the Hall of Fame who were being given the James C. Melby Award for excellence in wrestling journalism. Hart went on a rant questioning their right to be there and ended up saying (about Oliver), "either he goes or I go". When Oliver chose to stay, Hart stormed out of the room.

I wrote about the fiasco on Sunday and said the incident proved again that Bret Hart is one of the biggest marks in the wrestling business. His anger towards Oliver and Johnson apparently stems from a variety of things including their ranking him 14th among their list of greatest Canadian wrestlers. Hart is apparently also upset with a review of his book posted by Oliver, one that was overwhelmingly positive.

Hart's actions prompted a flurry of posts at the WrestlingClassics.com message board, with almost all of the posts blasting Hart for his behavior.

Now comes the closest thing to reaction from Hart about what happened. Marcy Engelstein, Bret's friend/traveling companion/spokesperson/assistant/senior managing consultant (or whatever she calls herself these days) responded to a story written by Kevin Eck at the Baltimore Sun website and appears to be speaking on behalf of Hart. Apparently, according to Englestein, Hart was upset that Oliver gave her an autographed copy of his most recent book to give to Hart. "So, basically, Greg autographed his book for Bret. Bret feels there is some degree of audacity in that as Greg is supposed to be the reporter, not the participant," she writes. Engelstein also writes that Hart was upset that giving Oliver an award would give him credibility that would lead him to being recognized as an expert like Dave Meltzer. "Bret told me that recognizing Greg Oliver with an award provides him with a "credential" upon which other credentials can be built; a few years from now Greg would appear to have a 'wall of credentials' and would be called upon ( more often than he already is) as a wrestling expert by the mainstream press, like Dave Meltzer is now."

Englestein goes on to praise Meltzer for being a journalism major who has "over the years, displayed objectivity and detachment from outcome which is lacking on Oliver’s reporting." That comment is laughable since Meltzer has been a longtime friend of Bret Hart and could hardly be considered objective or detached when it comes to reporting on Hart.

Regardless of what Bret Hart thinks of Greg Oliver, it wasn't his place to try to humiliate him in front of an audience he was invited to appear before. Hart insulted not only Oliver, but the Hall of Fame who had invited him to appear. He also insulted James Melby's daughter who had flown in to make the presentation. His actions were inexcusable and embarassing.

Hart is clearly concerned about his legacy. He often said he was the "best there is, best there was, and best there ever will be". At some point he convinced himself that it wasn't a catch phrase and was the truth. In the history of professional wrestling there were probably hundreds of people with more talent than Hart. Some you've probably never heard of. What propelled Hart to the top of the business was a combination of good timing, luck, and the fact that the people calling the shots decided to let him be champion.

If Hart is truly concerned about his legacy, he needs to stop making a fool of himself with outragreous actions like those of this past weekend. Sadly, he will more likely be remembered for being a bitter crybaby who didn't appreciate the opportunity he was given to make a lot of money in the wrestling business rather than as the great champion he thinks he was.
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15 Shows
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In the history of professional wrestling there were probably hundreds of people with more talent than Hart. Some you've probably never heard of. What propelled Hart to the top of the business was a combination of good timing, luck, and the fact that the people calling the shots decided to let him be champion.


That right there kills the credibility of this writer. There were maybe 1 or 2 people with more talent, at best. The word luck and Bret Hart just don't go together unless the word "bad" is in front of it. The people calling the shots didnt want a guy like Bret or Shawn to ever become champion. They wanted guys like Hogan and Warrior to have it forever. The fans forced them into having no choice but to give it to the guys who worked there asses off like Bret and Shawn. This guy is a fucktard and doesn't know shit about shit, rot in hell asshole.
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Nubochanozep
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^agreed

darren & kraul: so regardless of how unethical something the boss requests is, you've gotta do it anyway? nah uh.
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WWEFootos48
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God
What was so unethical about having to job out his last match in his hometown, especially when his 30 days notice or whatever the hell it was, was to expire? Vince even said it himself, there are ways to lose which make you look like a bigger hero than even winning, sometimes. Bret just seemed really snobby refusing to do it. I don't see what's even remotely unethical about giving away the title; again, using another Vince line, it's a wrestling "tradition" to give up the belt if you're leaving, and Bret didn't want to do it. If you want to go that far, you can say what Bret wanted to do was unethical.

And I'll partially agree, there aren't hundreds of wrestlers better than Hart, but I surely think there are more than two. The writer was obviously using a bias going against Hart. But don't you think that being "forced" to use guys like Hart or Michaels as champion means that they became champion due to good timing and some luck? If they started in the 70's, no matter how much talent they had they would have never become champion, but I would argue that you cannot compare different eras, because things were always different. You could argue the same thing about someone like Stone Cold becoming champion because of good timing because if he was coming up in the 80's, first of all he wouldn't have been as over-the-top as he was allowed to be in the 90's. And the management may have not been so keen on just letting him "be himself" either, in the area of the super-gimmick. So I think even in most cases, not just Hart's, a title reign comes to good timing.
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Terrible Fry
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Credit to the Baltimore Sun for unearthing the following statement regarding Bret Hart's walk out, in protest of journalist Greg Oliver's recognition at the Dan Gable Hall Of Fame ceremony:

"Bret did, in fact, make his comments during his formal acceptance speech, which was in the evening; the less formal version, for fans, was in the afternoon. Bret is not the least bit concerned with what ranking Greg Oliver gave him. Greg is entitled to his opinion, like anyone else. For Bret to have been upset about how Oliver ranked him would have been petty, as some here have posted, but that is not, in fact, the case. Bret feels that Greg Oliver's books often present the writer's own opinion - (not just about Hart) as fact and that blurs the line of responsible journalism. Bret told me that recognizing Greg Oliver with an award provides him with a "credential" upon which other credentials can be built; a few years from now Greg would appear to have a 'wall of credentials' and would be called upon ( more often than he already is) as a wrestling expert by the mainstream press, like Dave Meltzer is now. And so, then someone who presents his own opinion as fact would have too much power to further distort an accurate account of the history of pro wrestling. Bret is passionate about a truthful account of pro wrestling being preserved for generations to come, no matter how he is portrayed, as long as it is factually accurate.

Bret's perceived difference between Greg Oliver and those "like him" from Meltzer, for example, is that Oliver is in it for the wrong reason; recognition. During the afternoon event, while I was busy handling an autograph session where Bret and Roddy were signing, Greg Oliver gave me a copy of his latest book to give to Bret (The Heels), but then he said, "Oh wait, let me sign that for him before I give it to him…" and he did. So, basically, Greg autographed his book for Bret. Bret feels there is some degree of audacity in that as Greg is supposed to be the reporter, not the participant. Dave Meltzer, whose landmark publication is even named The Observer, defines himself as such, without the attached ego. He was a journalism major and has, over the years, displayed objectivity and detachment from outcome which is lacking on Oliver’s reporting, and he, "…at least attempts to get it right…", according to Bret.

Bret doesn't have any problem at all with a deserving journalist being honored and inducted. He just felt that Stu would have been honored to be inducted into this particular hall of fame because it is rooted in amateur, not pro, footings and the past inductees are all distinguished and deserving people who had sacrificed much for the love of wrestling and for the business. He felt that Greg Oliver doesn't fit that bill in that he hasn’t paid his dues and doesn't report or write with objectivity.

I hear that Greg stated, on Wrestling Observer Live, to Bryan Alvarez, that I, myself, walked out of the banquet to tell Bret that he shouldn't have said what he said. I didn't hear this myself but was told this in an email from Mike Lano. In fact, I walked out only because it was such an unusually awkward moment that I wanted to see what, if anything, Bret might want from me. I'll get back to that. Before I left, I saw that the first person to stand up and give Bret an ovation after Bret walked out was Harley Race. Next to stand to show his approval was Danny Hodge. Then other legends stood up, including Roddy. None of the wrestlers walked out and no fans walked out. I left a minute or so after Bret did. Bret asked me to get his notes, which he'd jotted down briefly just after sitting down at the head table (where seats had been reserved for Bret, Roddy and myself. ( when we walked in, late I initially sat next to Bret but then I chose to sit with Harley and BJ instead so I could see better. Also, although I appreciated the compliment of my seat assignment, I've always preferred to be behind-the scenes and wasn't comfortable being so visible at the head table.) Bret's notes were not about Greg Oliver, but pertained to his speech in general. He'd left them on the podium when he walked out. I didn't want to parade up to the podium in front of everyone so I asked Mike Chapman, the Director of the Museum to get the notes for me, which he did.

While Mike waited for an opportune moment to go to the podium I was standing just outside the door to the banquet room and one notable after another came out and expressed support to me for what Bret had said. As what they said to me was not in a public forum, I won't betray their confidences by revealing their exact words and identities at this time. No doubt, some will call that a convenient excuse or whatever, but frankly I don't care about that because the reason I've been around as long as I have is because I respect the honor of being trusted by these men; and I work hard and have paid my dues. One of them passionately expressed to me that there are no shortcuts in this business and that respect and honor have to be earned - and that Greg Oliver hadn't done so, in his opinion. That sentiment was echoed over and over to me by iconic men throughout the rest of the evening - and not so much that it was directed at Greg specifically, but at the so-called "wrestling reporters", especially internet based ones, whose egos have diluted whatever objectivity they might have started out with because they seem to enjoy the pseudo-celebrity that comes with the internet a little too much.

Nowhere in this account have I expressed my own opinion of Greg Oliver; and I won't. I've simply given you the facts of what happened. At CAC a couple of weeks ago, during his acceptance speech, Bret mentioned how he'd had the honor and privilege to watch and learn from Harley Race and Terry Funk (who were seated behind Bret, on the stage) when he was a kid. After Bret's speech, while Bret was being mobbed at the side of the stage by the Japanese and European media, I watched as an emotional Terry Funk took the mic, "I speak for both myself and Harley. That kid grew up to do it so much better than we ever could. And we love him for it." Terry Funk's supreme compliment carries more weight than how any reporter ranks Bret.

Marcy Engelstein
Sr. Consulting Mgr.
Bret Hart/ HItman Productions"

For those who don't feel like reading all of this, this is a statement from Bret Hart's consulting manager saying that Bret's issue was not with Greg Oliver's opinion of Hart but instead believes...
Quote:
 
recognizing Greg Oliver with an award provides him with a "credential" upon which other credentials can be built; a few years from now Greg would appear to have a 'wall of credentials' and would be called upon ( more often than he already is) as a wrestling expert by the mainstream press, like Dave Meltzer is now. And so, then someone who presents his own opinion as fact would have too much power to further distort an accurate account of the history of pro wrestling.

And it also provides a bit more detail on what happened, at least from Marcy Engelstein's perspective.
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Darren
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Jimmy 15
Jul 4 2008, 04:32 AM
That right there kills the credibility of this writer. There were maybe 1 or 2 people with more talent, at best.

You lost all credibility with me with that comment

--> Outsider

It's hardly of his concern, the only reason he doesn't want Greg to be widely recognised like Meltzer is because he has a contrasting view of how good Hart is. If Meltzer word is bible, then Bret is the greatest legend to have ever lived, if people view Gregs opinion with as much weight then Hart is just a very good wrestler... his stock plummets.

---> Jimmy

Well if you talk of ethics, it was hardly ethical to stomp your feet like a child when asked to pass on the belt to the next up and comer. He's selfish and very egotistical. He didn't like Michaels... Yeah so what you're not the boss, you're a wrestler. Know your place in the business. WWF had to move on from losing a massive name like Hart, so obviously the best step was to build the new icon. Shawn Michaels had more than enough ability to deserve carrying the title.

There would have been no screwjob, if Bret Hart wasn't such a dick in the first place...
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Aint cheatin aint tryin
Im not too concerned about the whole thing. You guys say he should move past the whole Survivor Series thing, and even thought this incident had nothing to do with it, you found a way to get into a huge conversation about it. So clearly he isn't the only one not to have gotten over it. Sure it's been 11 years, but it was a huge thing. And will probably be discussed for another 11 years. It's easy for Micheals and Vince to get over it, cause they continued there careers, and have done very well since then. What has Bret got since then. He was at that shithole WCW. Doing absolutly nothing, his talent was wasted, then his brother died, then he had a career ending concussion, then a motorcycle accident and a stroke! Fucksakes if any of you went through that, you would probably be pretty bitter at all the people that fucked you over aswell.

As for Darren, you think there are alot of people with more talent then Bret. And that's fine. But if you think there's hundreds, then you obviously have no buisness discussing wrestling. I think it's a little crazy not to have him in your top 10, but it's not a big deal. Personally, I say Stone Cold is number 1, followed then by Bret Hart. Why? I have my reasons. Why you think he sucked? I don't know, maybe it was because of his mic skills. Or maybe it's because you don't like his personality. Maybe it's because he wore pink. I don't know and I don't give a shit. But the fact remains, Bret has had it pretty tough, so cut him some slack.
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Darren
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Jimmy 15
Jul 4 2008, 10:47 PM
As for Darren, you think there are alot of people with more talent then Bret. And that's fine. But if you think there's hundreds, then you obviously have no buisness discussing wrestling. I think it's a little crazy not to have him in your top 10, but it's not a big deal. Personally, I say Stone Cold is number 1, followed then by Bret Hart. Why? I have my reasons. Why you think he sucked? I don't know, maybe it was because of his mic skills. Or maybe it's because you don't like his personality. Maybe it's because he wore pink. I don't know and I don't give a shit. But the fact remains, Bret has had it pretty tough, so cut him some slack.

Of course we can't forget about it, he's still bitter about it, and most of us have to hear about it on a monthly basis.

First of all, Shawn Michaels and Vince can hardly be blamed for his life taking a turn for the worse. Secondly WCW wasn't a shithole at the time, it was WWF's major contender,WCW was a company willing to give Bret more money than WWF could afford to give him. That doesn't sound like a shithole.

Bret Hart is probably one of the greatest wrestlers of his era, but it's hard to claim he is the best, considering the wrestlers that came before him, or the wrestlers that plyed their trade in other continents. im sure there is plenty of wrestlers who have about the same ability as Bret Hart had with half the exposure.

I don't think he sucks, I was a very big fan of him when he wrestled... I still watch some of his old matches, that doesn't go to say that he's not a dickhead. I support Manchester United, and I have no problem recognising that Cristiano Ronaldo is a dickhead but he's a fantastic player. As for cutting him some slack, I would if I felt his current behaviour deserved it.
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Nubochanozep
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WWEWhoseLine48
 
What was so unethical about having to job out his last match in his hometown, especially when his 30 days notice or whatever the hell it was, was to expire? Vince even said it himself, there are ways to lose which make you look like a bigger hero than even winning, sometimes. Bret just seemed really snobby refusing to do it. I don't see what's even remotely unethical about giving away the title; again, using another Vince line, it's a wrestling "tradition" to give up the belt if you're leaving, and Bret didn't want to do it. If you want to go that far, you can say what Bret wanted to do was unethical.


There was a clause in Hart's contract giving him creative control, hence, unethical. There was also the fact that he and Michaels didn't like each other, and apparently for good reason since Michaels was a self admitted asshole. Picture yourself in a company with someone that you despise. You're asked to hand your job over to that person you despise, despite others being more than capable of taking over the position. Unethical.

And appeal to tradition is a logical fallacy mang, don't use it on me.

Darren
 
Well if you talk of ethics, it was hardly ethical to stomp your feet like a child when asked to pass on the belt to the next up and comer.


lolwut? When did he do that? Was it for a reason? I hope you're not talking about Michaels since at that point in time he wasn't really an up and comer.
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Darren
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The Best a Man can Get
Creative control doesn't give you the final say on what goes on, he expressed his views and Vince still didn't agree with it. Touch shit. Clause implemented, now stop bitching. By up and coming I meant someone good enough to take the next step. Michaels was more than able to carry the title, if you look at how it turned out for Michaels now, it was obviously good business to put the title on him.

The only difference I'm seeing here is Michaels was a "self admitted asshole" and Bret Hart is still in denial.
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