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Raw Discussion 7/18/11
Topic Started: Jul 18 2011, 07:49 AM (872 Views)
Purple Marauder
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Stand Back! There's a Hurricane Coming Through
I can't believe they ripped off TNA like that. Coming Soon, Triple H leads Eternal.
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_DL_
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BURN IT DOOOWWNNNNNNNN!
Purple Marauder
Jul 19 2011, 03:18 AM
I can't believe they ripped off TNA like that. Coming Soon, Triple H leads Eternal.
I was thinking the same thing :lol:
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WWEFootos48
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God
I'll be the first to say...is it a work?

...and as I say that, of course my friend texts me saying he needs to do research to see whether it's real or not. :lol:
Edited by WWEFootos48, Jul 19 2011, 03:23 AM.
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WWEFootos48
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God
I should just also add that a really good argument to this being some sort of reality is its timing. Why would WWE suddenly turn "edgy" once again, allowing Punk to come out and shoot on Vince and the WWE on TV (something they haven't let happen in over 5 years), allow somebody who is legit leaving the company leave with the WWE Championship, and even have CENA shoot, if they weren't planning some huge ending out of this? I don't think they one day went "hey, this would be a great storyline to get us into SummerSlam even though we're PG," something REALLY has to be happening.
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Purple Marauder
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Stand Back! There's a Hurricane Coming Through
The ratings suck, the PPV buys are down and fans are leaving? I also read where the WWE had a study group of fans and interviewed them and asked them why they don't like the product and what they want to see and such. Perhaps they are listening? Also, Punks promo kind of caught lightning in a bottle. If they wanted to keep that momentum, then they had to go with an edgier story.
Edited by Purple Marauder, Jul 19 2011, 03:33 AM.
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Jesus Omega
The Best in SWF
WWE's success has always come when it was edgy. Its "downfall" came when it started doing things just to be edgy.
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SRP76
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The Man. Any Questions?
I don't see anything "edgy" or beyond PG going on. Having Vince "fired" again and people talking about leaving to go elsewhere and whatnot doesn't break from WWE's defined audience.
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In Brightest Day
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WWE had their 3rd best year finacially as a company EVER just last year, and thats with PPV buy-rates down and ratings more or less the same since 2003.

Saying fans are leaving is delusional.
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MY85
It's a fabulous new day, yes it is!
In Brightest Day
Jul 19 2011, 04:23 AM
WWE had their 3rd best year finacially as a company EVER just last year, and thats with PPV buy-rates down and ratings more or less the same since 2003.

Saying fans are leaving is delusional.
While PPV revenue goes down, TV revenue goes even higher if I'm not mistaken.
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In Brightest Day
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PPV buy-rates and television ratings clearly don't drive the business the same way they used to.
Edited by In Brightest Day, Jul 19 2011, 04:38 AM.
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Cybrus
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STAY HYPED!!!
In Brightest Day
Jul 19 2011, 04:23 AM
WWE had their 3rd best year finacially as a company EVER just last year, and thats with PPV buy-rates down and ratings more or less the same since 2003.

Saying fans are leaving is delusional.
WWE is a completely different company than it was 10-15 years ago when TV and PPV ratings were all the buzzwords. WWE's profits show a increase while their TV ratings and PPV buyrates show a decrease for the simple fact that WWE has expanded into many different areas. WWE gets money from the stock market, from WWE Films (which do make profits in DVD sales/rentals), and various other areas.

Or to put it in simpler terms:

Quote:
 
PPV buy-rates and television ratings clearly don't drive the business the same way they used to.


This.

However, it is still wrong to call anyone that says fans are leaving as :quote: delusional :quote: for the simple fact that lower TV ratings and lower PPV buyrates do show that fans are leaving. It's just that WWE makes more money elsewhere that those fans leaving doesn't really affect them as much as it would have a decade or two ago.

Now, onto Raw:

I think it should be obvious that CM Punk had a very heavy hand in his exit from WWE. I don't see how anyone could have watched the white hot exit Punk had, turn around and watch the very lackluster and disappointing Raw we got immediately afterward, and not come to that conclusion. I honestly didn't think WWE could blunder something so white fucking hot as the end we saw to MITB...but they proved they could just 21 hours later when Raw started.

At MITB, CM Punk beat John Cena for the WWE Title and left the arena as the reigning WWE Champion. His contract expired at midnight, but he still had possession of the WWE Title. Raw should have started with Vince explaining that there is no WWE Champion at the moment since the individual with the belt is no longer contracted to his company. Vince should then explain how he is going to get the title back. Is he stripping CM Punk of the WWE Title? Is there some kind of rule that says Punk is free to leave the company but the company title stays with the company? How exactly are they getting the belt off Punk? They make no mention of this. They leave a HUGE logic gap here.

Instead, they jump immediately into crowning a new WWE Champion. Which, for the record, I have no issue with them wanting to crown a new WWE Champion. My issue is they left the logic gap on not explaining how they got the belt off CM Punk. And to make matters worse, no one on the entire show questions this simple logic. The announcers just play along. The wrestlers just play along. Everyone is happy and fine with just having a tournament to crown a new WWE Champion. No one seems to take a moment and realize that whomever is crowned is a shadow Champion (or whatever term you want to use) since the true WWE Title lineage stops at CM Punk. Until there is reasonable explanation as to why CM Punk is no longer WWE Champion, then there is no reason to believe the :quote: new :quote: Champion is infact the true Champion.

Of course, it's clear that they are starting a storyline where they crown a new Champion only for Punk to return later and say he is in fact the true Champion and for them have some kind of Title unification match (as Purple Marauder mentioned when he referenced the Razor/HBK storyline of past).

Then we make it to the very end of Raw and get to the segment that absolutely NO ONE believed for even a second. We get to the part where Vince is suppose to fire Cena. The announcers said several times that they didn't even think Vince would fire his money man. No one believed it. So they have Cena come out and make reference to joining TNA (brother!) if he gets fired from WWE. Yeah, something else no one would believe. And when Vince gets back on the mic to presumably fire Cena...

Out comes Triple H. Great pop moment for sure. But my issue is with the logic behind the move. He comes out to say he was in a board meeting. Since when has he ever been on the board? When has he ever been anything more than a wrestler? It makes no sense for him to just suddenly have this powerful position that even catches Vince by surprise.

And we see Triple H give a teary eyed message to a teary eyed Vince where he basically tells Vince that Vince is fired and that Triple H is taking his spot. Vince McMahon crying in the middle of the ring. No. Should not happen.

So Triple H walks out and we are left with several questions. Some of these questions are good questions, the kind of questions you want to leave your audience with. The good questions are what is the extent of Triple H's power? Will he be a permanent authority figure from now on? Is he just on Raw? Will he be on SD!? Did he just replace the Anonymous Raw GM? Those are the kinds of questions that make the fans tune in next week.

But all the bad questions about how they can crown a new WWE Champion without explaining how the previous Champion isn't Champion any longer or how Triple H suddenly got a position on the board...just poor writing.

So my big complaint about Raw is the logic and follow up to the hottest angle in wrestling. They did a very poor job tonight. Of course, they have plenty of time since they are really just stalling until CM Punk returns with the real WWE Title in a few months. But still.
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WWEFootos48
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God
That's the point though. WWE suddenly stopped going by "their" logic and started going by "our" logic where we KNOW Triple H has a huge stake in the company. It's not a matter of explanation, it's a way of saying "hey, internet fans know Triple H is part of the behind the scenes stuff of the company and non-internet fans know he's married to Stephanie McMahon, so it would make sense in the end." That's why it turned weird. We had John Cena openly thanking a rival and a hated guy for their match, and making references to WWE's competition, which is something only Shawn Michaels (who has all the power in the world to do so) has really ever done on-air. Punk may have had a huge say, but who is Punk? Wouldn't you argue that Jericho is a much bigger star than Punk ever was, yet his exits have been mostly normal? Why give Punk the power to go out in this way, and why is this happening at the same time that we're seeing Vince McMahon lose power to Triple H? It's obvious they're trying to do something big here, and all I'm saying is that it could be argued that they're actually trying to do something here (changing the power on TV to coincide with a changing of the guard behind the scenes?) that is bigger than just a storyline.

This isn't the same WWE from a few years ago where they actually tried to put stuff out that all of us liked.

As for the title thing, I see what you're saying, but, again, it's not something they have to explain. Punk already said he was taking the title and going elsewhere. There's no reason for Vince to come out and say "we're stripping the title from Punk and he is no longer the champion" because it's already implied that he's done with the company and that Vince is already trying to rewrite history by not acknowledging his existence.
Edited by WWEFootos48, Jul 19 2011, 12:26 PM.
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Cybrus
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STAY HYPED!!!
WLFootastic48
Jul 19 2011, 12:21 PM
It's obvious they're trying to do something big here,
Which is to create a lame duck Champion for CM Punk to verbally destroy when he returns in a few months. You know that's where this is going. I know this is where this is going. And I do like that storyline. But WWE botched this Monday's Raw like hell. They took something white hot and did nothing with it. They did nothing to capitalize on the unbelievable high that they were coming off of after Sunday.

Quote:
 
As for the title thing, I see what you're saying, but, again, it's not something they have to explain.

That's where you are wrong. CM Punk is the reigning WWE Champion. He's the last true Champion. He won the title and has not been beaten or stripped of the title. Why should fans accept someone else as the Champion when everyone knows Punk is the Champion?

Quote:
 
It's obvious they're trying to do something big here,

This is the single best storyline WWE has done in a very long time. The only other storyline I can remember off the top of my head was the Taker/HBK WM storyline (first or second time, both were great). But I'm not convinced that this is anything more than just a great storyline. I don't think this is some kind of changing of the guard or crossing of the tide for the company. I don't expect WWE to use this to drastically change their company image. It's just a great storyline. I could be wrong, and if I am I'll say I am. But I just don't see it being anything bigger than just a good storyline. Punk will definitely be back in WWE before WM. Punk will most likely be back in WWE before the end of 2011. Punk could possibly be back in WWE before the end of the Summer.
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_DL_
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BURN IT DOOOWWNNNNNNNN!
In my opinion, the logical thing to have done was to strip Punk of the title. He's no longer under contract so that's the only smart thing to do, instead of Benoiting him. The actual title itself is inconsequential.
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SRP76
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The Man. Any Questions?
I don't see the problem. There's no need to strip him, or anything else. When a champion leaves the company, he is no longer the champion of that company. He's just a random dude walking the streets with a toy belt. Your title is therefore automatically vacant. Pretty simple. Just like if a champion "retires".
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ChainGangmaster2kgen
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From Out of No Where
^^ Great Point

Trish Stratus retired winning the Woman's Championship back in 06. They vancant the title when she left the company.
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SRP76
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The Man. Any Questions?
Just be glad they didn't do a 2002, and simply hand the belt to the former #1 contender. :lol:

Though, the tournament didn't finish, and they'll now either drag a Rey vs. Miz match on until the next PPV, or scrap it altogether. If that happens, we might just get an "awarded" situation.
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MY85
It's a fabulous new day, yes it is!
I was expecting them to hand it to Del Rio in exchange for his briefcase before Raw aired, but whatever.

Miz vs Rey will happen next Monday. Probably Punk will show up or not.
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Cybrus
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STAY HYPED!!!
SRP76
Jul 19 2011, 10:47 PM
I don't see the problem. There's no need to strip him, or anything else. When a champion leaves the company, he is no longer the champion of that company. He's just a random dude walking the streets with a toy belt.
Didn't WCW say the same thing when Ric Flair left the company with the big gold WCW Belt? Didn't they soon see the problem when Flair showed up on WWF TV with the "Real" World Title a few short months later?

Now, granted, I wouldn't ever expect CM Punk to take the WWE Title anywhere else and I expect him back on WWE TV within a few months. But the problem, as I already explained, is that Punk is the last true Champion. He's undefeated. He was never stripped of his title. The belt he has in his possession is the true WWE Championship. Whomever WWE crowns as Champion now is not the true Champion since Punk never lost his title or had his title forcibly stripped from him. But don't worry, you're going to be hearing all this again when Punk returns a in a few months and starts this exact storyline. :tu:
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CM DRUNK
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I read on Wrestlezone that Rey Rey is going to get a major push coming into SS and the next RAW which is his home town. If this is the case, i might stop watching wrasstling for the next month or 2 til Punk returns.
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SRP76
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The Man. Any Questions?
Cybrus
Jul 20 2011, 09:54 AM
SRP76
Jul 19 2011, 10:47 PM
I don't see the problem. There's no need to strip him, or anything else. When a champion leaves the company, he is no longer the champion of that company. He's just a random dude walking the streets with a toy belt.
Didn't WCW say the same thing when Ric Flair left the company with the big gold WCW Belt? Didn't they soon see the problem when Flair showed up on WWF TV with the "Real" World Title a few short months later?

No. Flair was stripped of the title before he even left NWA/WCW. He just didn't want to hand over the physical belt unless he got his cash bond back.

They "explained" that Punk was leaving before the match even took place. Anyone who watched even one of the past 3 episodes doesn't need to have it explained to them why the title is vacant. And I'm pretty sure this past Monday wasn't the first Raw for a whole lot of the audience. Maybe less than one half of 1%, and they'll catch on quick enough.
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Purple Marauder
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Stand Back! There's a Hurricane Coming Through
Quote:
 
WWE Chairman Vince McMahon was reportedly "shocked into silence" when the overnight household ratings for Monday Night Raw came in at a 3.2 yesterday at the Smackdown tapings.

According to a key WWE insider who was backstage, "Vince did his best to no-sell the news, but the entire atmosphere of the backstage area changed once Vince was told of the rating."

WrestleZone was also told, "It seems like Vince and the upper echelon really believed this latest surge in excitement based on the CM Punk angle would really pop the ratings. The slow build back up is really scary for a lot of people right now. There's not an overflow of patience running around in WWE."


By the way, why is this called the May 18, 2011 Raw thread?
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MY85
It's a fabulous new day, yes it is!
Purple Marauder
Jul 21 2011, 03:18 AM
By the way, why is this called the May 18, 2011 Raw thread?
DL would say:

Quote:
 
It was late :angry:
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Cybrus
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STAY HYPED!!!
SRP76
Jul 20 2011, 07:06 PM
They "explained" that Punk was leaving before the match even took place. Anyone who watched even one of the past 3 episodes doesn't need to have it explained to them why the title is vacant. And I'm pretty sure this past Monday wasn't the first Raw for a whole lot of the audience. Maybe less than one half of 1%, and they'll catch on quick enough.
What they explained is that Punk is getting a Title shot and taking the Title with him if he leaves. That's the message they drilled into the audience going into the PPV. That was the reason for the Vince/Punk promo where Vince said he had doubts in Cena. Vince was afraid that Punk would win the WWE Title and take it with him thus hurting the image of WWE. And it was a great sell because it added a lot of excitement to the already white hot storyline.

And the follow up to this white hot storyline? They just turn around and have a tournament without even addressing the issue on camera. Vince says he'll never mention Punk's name again and that was it. So suddenly it isn't very important to Vince that someone won the WWE Title and left the company with it? Suddenly, they can just name a new WWE Champion? If it was always that simple, why did Vince make the big speech to Cena a few weeks prior?

See the contradiction there? It's poor storytelling on WWE's part.

But, again, all this is really moot since Punk is returning with the WWE Title to say all the same stuff in a few months.
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WWEFootos48
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God
I'm kind of shocked at that rating too. What were they pulling in before that?
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Cybrus
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STAY HYPED!!!
I think it dropped to like a 2.7 for 4th of July then went back up to a 3.0 or something the following week. The 3.2 is either right where they were at or a slight improvement.

I don't blame the ratings for not popping. This week's Raw was a disappointment, as I've said several times already. They did nothing to make Punk's win seem monumental. They made it look like a simple write off and tried to move on. I'd be interested in seeing the quarter hour break down for Raw. I bet the show started out with a big crowd, but most of those guys turned right back off when they saw how they were handling things. Between the bad storyline and the fact that almost all the tournament matches ended with some kind of lame roll up victory probably turned a lot of fans off.

But I think they got the fans back with the Triple H return at the end of Raw. If Triple H is returning as an on air character and makes important changes, then I can see the ratings go up.
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