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Lets see how smart you guys really are...
Topic Started: Nov 3 2005, 11:14 PM (1,795 Views)
Magol
Shelgon
[ *  * ]
meh... that too, but i'm currently in calculus, so that's what i reference when i talk about math classes.
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+bearzly
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Tangela
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petrie is the only one who said 20 actually
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Magol
Shelgon
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well then, he's not very good at mathematics.
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+Y2JosHBK
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Bananated
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
my fault, i thought AA said it too
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Tangela
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it's written in a way that's too ambiguos to decide. Anyone who says it's definitively one or the other is an idiot.
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Magol
Shelgon
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no, it's not ambiguous if you can really read mathematics.
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+hotdogturtle
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Tangela
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It's not ambiguous at all. If you think that saying ÷ is different than using a fraction bar, then you are wrong. It's merely the only way you can type it on a computer. If there was a way to type
3a
3b
on one line, that would be what the question asks instead of 3a ÷ 3b. They mean the same thing.
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Tangela
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but then how do you know it doesn't say:

3a
__b
3

huh? You're making the dumb assumption that because the 3 preceeds the b it must be multiplied by it first. And yes, you are dumb for making that assumption.
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+hotdogturtle
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Tangela
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because when a variable has a coefficient they count as one unit and are solved by substitution before you do any operations. Don't ask why, that's just the way math works. 3a and 3b, since they both have coefficients, are both separate units that need to be evaluated before you divide.
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Bananated
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I think when a college math professor can tell you that its the way we have done then its right.

you cant just put a B outside the fraction because its multiplied by the 3, if there were parenthesis it would be different.
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Tangela
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Funny I don't recall learning the "constants times variables follow special order of operations" rule. You only say all this because it is the way in which you standardly think about it. And saying "smart guy says X statement" doesn't make X statement true. There has to be a mathematical law that says that 3 and b are to be multiplied first for it to nessecarily be true. And since no such law exists, it is NOT nessecarily 5. It might be, but it is not nessecarily.
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Bananated
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its a fraction with 3A over 3B, it is simple algebra.

i think you just like to argue ;)
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petrie911
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Politoed
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no, it's a fraction with (3a/3)*b. while you are correct, a division sign involves a fraction, without proper grouping, it only makes a fraction with the number following it. and implied multiplication (or any other kind of multiplication) is NOT grouping.
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Bananated
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petrie, i suggest going back to math class :\
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Tangela
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I don't see a fraction with 3b in the denominator. I see 3a undergoing the inverse function of multiplication upon a three for sure and potentially a b depending on wheter one groups the b with the 3. You are assuming a set of parenthesis around 3b which one could argue is rational just as the multiplication sign is assumed, but since any serious mathmatician would never use such stupid notation, there's not much of a convention. Thus, it can be interpreted either way. This is a fact, not an opinion.
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Bananated
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a college professor says its 5, end of discussion. they have a degree, nobody here does. this can only be taken one way, its math. thats why i like math, because i dont have to think about it, its all black and white.
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Tangela
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Saying that's like saying "if einstein says gravity pushes you up, it must be true!"
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+bearzly
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Tangela
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ok petrie, what would you put if the question was on a test?
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Bananated
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AA

its asking you to divide 3A over 3B, there are no parenthesis, so that means that it looks like this

3A
--
3B

thats just a fact, no matter how you work that out, its going to equal 5.

this is basic algebra, freshman take this class and get it. If you still dont get it ask your math teacher.
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Tangela
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ts asking you to divide 3A over 3B, there are no parenthesis,

It says to divide; I see it giving no indication of 3a being over 3b. It very well may be just over 3. You use the same faulty logic as anti-abortion advocates. You assume the whole point of the argument(in there case that it's a human life; in your case that 3b is in the denominator) and then argue against nothing.

Remind me why you assume that the b is under the fraction. Using that funny division sign, how would you write it to express:

3a
-- b
3

The normal way would be 3a(division sign)3b. What, it's the same? Yes, the notation is ambiguous. You are assuming, foolishly and adamantly, that 3b is considered one unit and thus is in the denominator completely. It very well may be only the 3 in the denominator and b off to the side. PEMDAS tells us that after all. Let me prove you wrong:

3b^2 = ?

Since b = 2, the answer is (3)(2)^2 = 12. If you said 36, you would be dead wrong. Why? Because the coefficient is NOT part of the variable. There were no parenthesis; it is just understood the two are separate. Now, in the case of that division, no convention exist. So one could only state that depending on the intent of the author, it may equal either 5 or 20. If you still don't get it, you can consult your 8th grade algebra class.
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petrie911
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Politoed
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
bearzly
Nov 5 2005, 03:51 PM
ok petrie, what would you put if the question was on a test?

20. If the teacher says it's wrong, I'll argue. on the other hand, when the hell would that EVER come up?
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Bananated
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It says to divide; I see it giving no indication of 3a being over 3b. It very well may be just over 3. You use the same faulty logic as anti-abortion advocates. You assume the whole point of the argument(in there case that it's a human life; in your case that 3b is in the denominator) and then argue against nothing.

it says divide 3A by 3B, 3B has to be in the denomitar because 3 is multiplied with it, you would only be right if there were parenthesis, which they are not. if you dont see an indication where 3A is over 3B then you fail at math and should seriously see a teacher to talk to them.

Remind me why you assume that the b is under the fraction. Using that funny division sign, how would you write it to express:

3a
-- b
3


b(3A/3) which is a different question all together, because then your doing the fraction and multiplying the answer by B

The normal way would be 3a(division sign)3b. What, it's the same? Yes, the notation is ambiguous. You are assuming, foolishly and adamantly, that 3b is considered one unit and thus is in the denominator completely. It very well may be only the 3 in the denominator and b off to the side. PEMDAS tells us that after all. Let me prove you wrong:

its not the same.3B is one unit because there are no parenthesis. your failing to see the parenthesis is your problem all together.

3b^2 = ?

Since b = 2, the answer is (3)(2)^2 = 12. If you said 36, you would be dead wrong. Why? Because the coefficient is NOT part of the variable. There were no parenthesis; it is just understood the two are separate. Now, in the case of that division, no convention exist. So one could only state that depending on the intent of the author, it may equal either 5 or 20. If you still don't get it, you can consult your 8th grade algebra class.


3B^2= 3*4=12

because the 2 is raised to the two only because there are no parenthesis, thus the 2 is squared into a 4 and multiplied by 3 which = 12. you can not multiply first either because 6^2 is not the same as 2^2 which is what they ask to do.

in conculsion, your wrong dude and you can ask any of your teahcers about it. if you want to argue this, you might as well argue that 2+2 doesnt equal 4. I know your smart, but your math grades cant be top tier according to this.

it may equal either 5 or 20. If you still don't get it, you can consult your 8th grade algebra class

this can not equal more than one thing, i mean like i said 2+2 can not have more than one answer, and either can this, if you think there are more than one answers to this then you really should go through your math classes again.

20. If the teacher says it's wrong, I'll argue. on the other hand, when the hell would that EVER come up?

you would argue and look ridiculous and it would still be wrong.





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petrie911
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Politoed
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multiplication is NOT grouping. for the last time. multiplication and division are on equal footing in order of operations, so you do the operations left to right.

The problem is that one's mind tends to group the 3 and the b together automatically. This, however, is wrong. Implied multiplication is the same as regular multiplication, so 3*a/3*b=3a/3b. 3*a/3*b is pretty clearly 20, so 3a/3b is, too.

For further example, would you say that 3+a-3+b is 8?
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Bananated
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multiplication is NOT grouping. for the last time. multiplication and division are on equal footing in order of operations, so you do the operations left to right.

drop this grouping thing :\

The problem is that one's mind tends to group the 3 and the b together automatically. This, however, is wrong. Implied multiplication is the same as regular multiplication, so 3*a/3*b=3a/3b. 3*a/3*b is pretty clearly 20, so 3a/3b is, too.

actually 3*a/3*b looks like this:

3*A
---
3*B

which does equal 5, not 20.

For further example, would you say that 3+a-3+b is 8?

3+10-3+2
13-3+2
10+2
12

12=/= 8

anyways ask your math instructor,. they will explain the answer better, that is what they are trained to do. bottom line is anything other than 5 is wrong.

i can tell you that you can not multiple

so 3*a/3*b=3a/3b. 3*a/3*b is pretty clearly 20, so 3a/3b is, too.

this is where you show your lack of knowledge for math, you can not multiply a and 3, because of the muliplication with the other digit
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Tangela
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Seriously, petrie and I both are very good at this sort of thing. You aren't even making sense. You are making your whole dumb argument on "that's the way it is" without giving a single bit of reasoning. And how can we "drop the grouping thing." The whole argument is over whether 3 and b are grouped. 3b is not a number; it is TWO numbers. There is an implied multiplication sign between them. You could rewrite it as:

3*a/3*b

You wouldn't dream of calling THAT 5. Oh wait, you would. Ok, let's make it more complex:

3a/3b/3a/3/b/3/a/3/b*3*a

This cannot be practically written as a fraction, so we use PEMDAS. No, I'm not going to solve this. You can do it yourself.

Ok, let's go out on a limb and replace all the multiplication with division and vice versa. Here's what we get:

3/a*3/b

I'm going to guess you'd call that 9/20.

Now you remember that multiplication and division are essentially the same thing, just inverted. Now tell me why you would treat them differently in terms of order.

And, as per my exponential example, why are dealing with exponent ANY DIFFERENT from dealing with multiplication and division. Let's even step into the world of imaginery functions:

2@3%1

Now, assuming % does not precede @ in the order of operations, how would you do this?

(2@3)%1

See, the functions to the left come first. The only way they come second is if the latter comes first in the order of operations. Division does NOT come before multiplication last I checked.

Also, don't insult my math skills. AP Calculus II for the win. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about, and your whole argument comes down to faith in your teacher. Well, guess what? If he says it's 5 no questions asked, then he's quite dumb. After all, George W. Bush graduated from Yale. You don't have to be smart to get a degree.

The ONLY case that can be made for 5 is that parenthesis are IMPLIED around the 3b. This is a weak statement, but it's the only chance. Saying that unless parenthesis are drawn that constants times variables always have implied parenthesis is stupid. If it were true, than 3b^2 would equal 36. But it doesn't. So the parenthesis aren't implied, or at least not definitively.
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Bananated
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3(10)/3(2)

thats the problem, you can not divide 10 by 3 first because the 3 is with the 10 and the 2 is with the three, they have to go with it. which means it becomes 30/6 which becomes 5.

this is what you are seeing:

(3(10)/3)2 which becomes (30/3)2 which becomes 10*2 which equals 20. but (3(10)/3)2 was not the original question, 3(10)/3(2) was, so thats why 5 is the correct answer. I have worked it correctly for you, if you cant see the answer even though i have put it in front of you multiple times then yes, your math knowledge does come into question.

anyways im done arguing this, its a stupid argument and im seeing answers that would go with the topic. Ask any of your teachers and they will say 5, each and every one of them. I think when all the teachers who are trained for just this thing say 5 and some random person who says its 20, it is pretty clear thhat the person who is saying 20 is wrong and they made a mistake. Im not a math teacher but i have made it pretty clear, if you want a lesson ask your math teacher. Saying the answer is 20 is ignorant and im leaving it at that.

The ONLY case that can be made for 5 is that parenthesis are IMPLIED around the 3b. This is a weak statement, but it's the only chance. Saying that unless parenthesis are drawn that constants times variables always have implied parenthesis is stupid. If it were true, than 3b^2 would equal 36. But it doesn't. So the parenthesis aren't implied, or at least not definitively.

i have worked it out, the exponent of 2 is only taken to the B not everything, if there were parenthesis then it would be taken to all terms.

here, i even found you a website which might help you:

http://cstl.syr.edu/FIPSE/Algebra/Unit2/multiply.htm

it basically says:

1. Divide the numerical coefficients. (Do not confuse the numerical coefficients with the base.)
2. Perform the division on the variables:
* Keep the variables from each term.
* For each variable, subtract the exponent on the bottom of the fraction from the exponent on the top of the fraction.

6x^cy^a/2xy^b = (6/2)x^c–1y^a–b =
3x^c–1y^a–b

notice they did this the same way as all the people who said 5 did.

EVERY SITE SAYS THIS, NO SITE SAYS YOUR ANSWER. i have gotten trained professors to answer this, its in math books(remember that the greatest math minds in the world write the problems for those) and every website says it, and your the only one thats right? Your better than trained teachers, the greatest math minsd and no more than every website? i think your mistakin

which is just an advanced look on our problem. they got the same asnwer as us.

anyways yeah you got a lot to learn and your math skills are questioned at this point, im done with this, its stupid, im out.
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Tangela
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That 3 is not with the 10, and the other 3 is not with the 2. You can't just arbitrarily call numbers "with" each other I.E. group them I.E. superimpose parenthesis. And yes, I know the laws of exponents. The point is, raising something to a power is not after multiplication in PEMDAS(actually, it is before), so multiplication doesn't take magical precendence. Last I checked, division is not before multiplication. Actually, division IS multiplication, just inverted. You can't magically group numbers to alter the answer. You have to solve it as is written, which puts each number in sequence. Just because 2 of them "look" together doesn't make them together.

I never said 3b^2 = 36 because it does not. I was using it as a parallel example to 3a/3b. It's meant to show you can't magically group. My algebra teacher way back told me that magically grouping is wrong.

Also, for the record, the status of someone means NOTHING in terms of how right or wrong they are. Math is the language of the universe. It is in many respects discovered, not created. Therefore, in order to win an argument about it, you can't cite experts as infallible proof, you must present logical reasoning. And claiming two numbers are together, 100% based on the fact that that's how you think about it and that your teacher said, is not any sort of argument at all.

Also, try getting a TI-86. This is a high powered graphing calculator that knows the order of operations. Type in 3(10)/3(2). I can guarantee 20 comes up.
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Tangela
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I took my Ti-83 and stored 10 as a and 2 as b, then put the question in and it came out as 20 =/
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Blkmage
Delibird
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I used my TI-84 Plus and I got 20 as well.

PEMDAS

3a / 3b
3(10) / 3(2)
30 / 3(2)
10(2)
20

There aren't any parenthesis around the 3a or 3b so doesn't that mean this problem would be solved in the order it is given?
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Bananated
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try taking 30 divided by 6, because thats really what you got.
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