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Lets see how smart you guys really are...
Topic Started: Nov 3 2005, 11:14 PM (1,794 Views)
+hotdogturtle
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Tangela
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Calculators take things literally according to PEMDAS exactly how they are typed in. Since 3a is one unit and 3b is one unit, you need to manually type parentheses around them. You don't have to in real life.
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+Y2JosHBK
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Bananated
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remember that calculators are only as smart as the person using them.
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+Amazing Ampharos
Tangela
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Since when has 3b been one unit? I see 2 numbers, 3 and b. That's 2 units unless specified differently with parenthesis. PEMDAS doesn't have a rule that says "except in cases where multiplication happens after division, that comes first."
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Banzo803
Tangela
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hotdogturtle is banned from making topics as of now.
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+Amazing Ampharos
Tangela
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Bump - Josh doesn't understand math(nor does hdt), and whatever happened to petrie? He just drifts about the internet I guess as I see him a lot for a few weeks and then don't see him again for 6 months.

I just realized I should have said it verbally.

Three times a divided by three times b

This is an exact replication of the original phrase. There are no parenthesis so you cannot argue anything but simple reading left to right to translate it like this.

Since multiplication and division appear in the same place in PEMDAS, you do not need to alter the order in which you do the functions. You can simply do them in order.

Three times a is thirty.

thirty divided by three is ten.
b times two is twenty.

Yes, this was a stupid argument, and it's pretty funny how evidence was only given by the side that favored 20. I actually would have argued for 5 had the baseless argument been for 20 to be honest as I stand by my original contention that it's ambiguous notation which cannot be resolved definitively and relies entirely on the intent of the author. This is the reason that sign isn't used in math anymore.
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+Y2JosHBK
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Bananated
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I dont fail at math >_>.

Anyways to get the answer your arguing for, the problem would havwe to be written out different...

Why in god's name did you revide this...
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+Amazing Ampharos
Tangela
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Because I remembered how wrong you were.

The whole issue was over how the fraction looked, and you were arguing it was one way just because you and some college professor said so. I was amazed by the lack of intelligence in that so I decided to post in this. I need to bring this up to my math teacher actually; he'd probably get a good laugh out of the topic in general(and then ask me if I have so much time to worry about math like this why I am so late with all my homework).
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squirtster
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Tangela
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o_o

You read from left to right if there are no parentheses, since everything is multiplication and division. Whether you take 3a and 3b separately or do it in order (ie- 3 x a / 3 x b done in order), the answer is 5 =\


EDIT: I mean the answer is 20* >_> My bad x)
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Blkmage
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Quote:
 
o_o

You read from left to right if there are no parentheses, since everything is multiplication and division. Whether you take 3a and 3b separately or do it in order (ie- 3 x a / 3 x b done in order), the answer is 5 =\


I'm still standing by that the answer is 20. And I'm agreeing with AA; how are 3a and 3b one unit?

3a / 3b

3(10) / 3(2)
Substitute in the numbers for variables

30 / 3(2)
This is going by PEMDAS, but you count Multiplication and Division as one step, so if Division came before Multiplication, you wouldn't do Multiplication first unless otherwise noted (ie parentheses, brackets). This step is Multiplication since it is the first step of Multiplication/Division in chronological order; so 3 times 10 is 30, which gives us 30 / 3(2)

10(2)
Since this is chronological order regardless of whether Multiplication or Division comes first, you would use the operation of Division here; so 30 divided by 3 is 10, which gives us 10(2).

20
Only two integers left, so you would multiply, and 10 times 2 gives us 20.


However, something tells me I didn't need to type that out. :(

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+Sir Spanky
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Less bananated than Shippou
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Why the hell do you guys called it PEMDAS? We call it BIDMAS lawl.

Brackets
Incidices
Division
Multiplication
Addition
Subtration

iirc.

Spanky
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+bearzly
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Tangela
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wtf are indicies (I obviously know what they are, but haven't heard the term before)
btw it's BEDMAS

Brackets
Exponents
Division
Multiplication
Addition
Subtraction
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+Sir Spanky
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Indicices are 2^2, iirc your exponents.
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+bearzly
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Tangela
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bearzly
Apr 5 2006, 03:23 PM
(I obviously know what they are, but haven't heard the term before)

...
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+Sir Spanky
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I didn't read you message properly. Hell all I read were the first 3 words, as I saw you explaining to me what you used, but I ignored that as I had asked magey about 2 mins before.

Sorry about that old chum.

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squirtster
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Tangela
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Actually indices refers to the n in the 1/n part of a root in N. America. ie- the cube root of x has index 3 =\

BTW, blkmage and AA, I apologize, I agree that it's 20 >_< If you read what I said and actually do it, you see that I do get 20 for an answer, I just wasn't thinking x)

Basically, it goes like this

3xa is 30
30/3 is 10
10xb is 20
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+Y2JosHBK
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Bananated
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I thought pokemon players were supposed to be smart. I am seeing the complete opposite.
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+Amazing Ampharos
Tangela
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We mostly are. You're just being an exception.

Note the whole time I've argued ambiguous notation.
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+Y2JosHBK
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Bananated
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If you are so smart, why cant you understand a simple math problem that they teach in 8th grade if not younger? It truly is sad. You are arguing for something that isnt there which is an insta fail.

I am thinking calculus warped your mind for the worse >_>
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squirtster
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Tangela
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K, josh, we'll try one more time ;)

BEDMAS, PEMDAS, BIMDAS or whatever you use forces the answer to be 20.

This states the order of precedence for operations in a string of them. Brackets first, exponents next, etc. It also states that the operations must be carried out from left to right. Multiplication and division are grouped as one, as are addition and subtraction, so it's really 4 steps in the ladder.

I'm sure you know all that....for example - the expression ab˛. This is the same as saying a x b x b, NOT a x b x a x b, right?

How about the expression 3 + 4 - 2 + 1? Technically, you should see it like this...

Code:
 
3 + 4 is 7
7 - 2 is 5
5 + 1 is 6


Taking each operation separately...

So 3 + 4 - 2 + 1 should be like this according to BEDMAS:

Code:
 
(((3 + 4 ) - 2 ) + 1) = 6


Now let's look at the problem... 3a / 3b where a=10 and b = 2

As you can see, all of the operations here are either multplication or division, so it can be paralleled (is that word?) to 3 + 4 - 2 + 1. Since there are no brackets in this expression, we must treat it exactly the same way...

Code:
 
3a / 3b=
(((3 * a) / 3) * b)=
(((3 * 10) / 3) * 2)=
(( 30 / 3) * 2)=
(10 * 2)=
20


What you are doing is placing brackets where they do not exist..

Code:
 

3a / 3b =/=                 <- DOES NOT EQUAL
((3 * a) / (3 * b))=
((3 * 10) / (3 * 2))=
(30 / 6)=
5


What you are doing is exactly the same as (taking the addition/subtraction example):

Code:
 
3 + 4 - 2 + 1=
(3 + 4) - (2 + 1)=
7 - 3=
4


You can see that the answer is different =\

If that isn't clear enough, I don't know what is.
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+Y2JosHBK
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Bananated
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The funniest part is for kicks when this topic was started I asked numorous teachers what the answer was, and they all went with 5. Now we got teachers who can teach calc 3, and all other forms of math, and more than one of these teachers, and they all went with 5.

So lets see who am I going to agree with? The people who have dedicated their lives to this work, who can teach math that no one here can begin to comprehend, who know what they are talking about in their sleep? Or should I listen to teenagers who are just looking to argue something they cant seem to understand.

I think I will take the math teachers side thank you very much.
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squirtster
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Tangela
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That's kinda retarded josh if you're going to take someone's word for it instead of thinking it out. If you phrased the question differently at all, then the answer could change. I'll ask my math teacher tomorrow too -_-
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+Y2JosHBK
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Bananated
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Welcome to where I live. A republican society.
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+Amazing Ampharos
Tangela
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yeah, depending on how you said/wrote it, the answer could be changed. Since it's ambiguous notation, if you put it to mean 5, 5 becomes a very rational answer. Also, seriously, the expert argument holds zero weight in math. Proof and evidence are all that matter. Newton himself could come and say that 2+2=5, and then Newton would be wrong. Furthermore, I question that I cannot comprehend whatever math teachers you are talking about. I have an extraordinarily high aptitude for math.
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+Y2JosHBK
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Bananated
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You could hardly do calc 3. but this discussion is over as far as I am concerned. You said it AA, there is no sure answer, and that means no winners, and no losers, except me who is using this means as a winning method!
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squirtster
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Tangela
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No, there is a definite answer as defined by the established laws of BEDMAS. You're just not following those laws, therefore your answer differs from those who do.
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+Y2JosHBK
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Bananated
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Squirtster failed to read the topic, and obviously isnt in higher math.
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+Sir Spanky
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Wow this is a really terrible topic haha.

Josh is acting like a stuck-up fool and Petrie and AA (later on) are coming across all high and mighty/elitist, while HDT is shamelessly rude :p I personally think my first reply in this topic is probably the best way of summing it up ¬_¬

The answer, when typed directly into a calculated/worked out as it stands, is indeed 20.

However if you use any logic/common sense, then brackets are implied/the division sign should be taken as a fraction and most normal people will tell you the answer is 5.

I didn't mean to start a war again though :x
Edited by Sir Spanky, Aug 22 2008, 08:20 PM.
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+Jolteon
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Sir Spanky
Apr 5 2006, 05:02 PM
Why the hell do you guys called it PEMDAS? We call it BIDMAS lawl.

Brackets
Incidices
Division
Multiplication
Addition
Subtration

iirc.

Spanky
BODMAS IS BETTER
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+Sir Spanky
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I first learnt Bodmas (when I was in like, year 3), but you come to realise simple having 'others' in your mathematical rule is a bit pathetic, especially when others is pretty much always indices/exponents haha.
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+Sandslash
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what is going on itt
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