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| Mod Tier List Discussion Topic | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 5 2006, 05:39 PM (578 Views) | |
| +Bugsy23 | Mar 5 2006, 05:39 PM Post #1 |
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The Future
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Ok so Sir Spanky and I were talking about adding the UU and NU metagames to the IML, but we need the rest of the community to come to an agreement on the tier list. Post here the pokemon(s) you believe need to be changed and a reason why, and when everything is settled, I will delete the old Tier List and add the new one, and you can use this topic to state any changes that need to be made due to any mod changes or pokemon uprisings. |
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| ATHFfreak | Mar 5 2006, 08:59 PM Post #2 |
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I'm close to being banned!!
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After a quick look I think Celebi and Snorlax should be moved up to Staple. Doesnt make much difference, but still... |
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| +Sir Spanky | Mar 6 2006, 04:07 PM Post #3 |
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Less bananated than Shippou
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Going by the fact that Standard UU and Common UU are allowed in the UU metagame (i.e not BL UU), and both Borderline NU and NU are usable for any NU match:- Rapidash: CUU to BLUU Whiscash: BLNU to SUU Octillery: CUU to SUU Murkrow: BLUU to CUU Also I don't want to see a change in Pinsir (as of yet) but he will definitely be the most used UU pogey IMO. Both Rag and I made a UU team that contained Pinsir, and I noticed that you also have one in your newest team. Spanky |
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Neon Twilight: thats really gay Neon Twilight: so gay Neon Twilight: gayer than bbm and spanky sex gay | |
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| RagnarokXtreme | Mar 6 2006, 04:31 PM Post #4 |
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Delibird
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Put Solrock on the list. |
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| Linkman 145 | Mar 6 2006, 08:37 PM Post #5 |
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Delibird
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Zapdos is standard and Moltres isn't? Same for eggy. Farfetch'd DEFINITELY needs upping to common. Fearow should be BL. And where the fuck is Blissey? |
![]() My attempt at Mario vs. Sephiroth. JERRY: Vomitting is not a deal breaker. If Hitler had vomitted on Chamberlain, Chamberlain still would have given him Czechoslovakia. GEORGE: Chamberlain...you could hold his head in the toilet, he'd still give you half of Europe. | |
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| Banzo803 | Mar 6 2006, 09:34 PM Post #6 |
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Tangela
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Zapdos is still significantly more useable and better than Moltres, and Zapdos is pretty common too. |
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| +Sir Spanky | Mar 7 2006, 04:15 PM Post #7 |
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Less bananated than Shippou
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I did put this idea to you yesterday Bugsy, but I think Volt Absorb Mawile would help remove the Plusle problem, as well as making it a mini-Registeel. Thunderbolt would do nothing, with HP Ice/Grass do very little. Mawile can just put it to sleep and Seismic Toss away. Spanky |
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Neon Twilight: thats really gay Neon Twilight: so gay Neon Twilight: gayer than bbm and spanky sex gay | |
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| Linkman 145 | Mar 7 2006, 07:22 PM Post #8 |
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Delibird
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Except Moltres can kick the crap out of the most common special tank in this metagame, while the standard Zapdos is forced to switch. |
![]() My attempt at Mario vs. Sephiroth. JERRY: Vomitting is not a deal breaker. If Hitler had vomitted on Chamberlain, Chamberlain still would have given him Czechoslovakia. GEORGE: Chamberlain...you could hold his head in the toilet, he'd still give you half of Europe. | |
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| Guest | Mar 7 2006, 08:58 PM Post #9 |
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Unregistered
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lol I forgot Blissey, no need to get so uptight about it. Hmm, Moltres is pretty effective in this metagame, but Eggy isn't as good unless it's paired with Moltres and will probably stay common. Fearow can be moved to BL sicne it gained Dragon Dance, I'll have to think about that one...Zapdos can possibly be moved to common because of the Registeel uprising. |
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| +Bugsy23 | Mar 7 2006, 08:59 PM Post #10 |
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The Future
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I didn't noticed I wasn't signed in... |
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| Linkman 145 | Mar 8 2006, 01:35 AM Post #11 |
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Delibird
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I'm not angry or anything, don't worry ^_^. |
![]() My attempt at Mario vs. Sephiroth. JERRY: Vomitting is not a deal breaker. If Hitler had vomitted on Chamberlain, Chamberlain still would have given him Czechoslovakia. GEORGE: Chamberlain...you could hold his head in the toilet, he'd still give you half of Europe. | |
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| Annoyme | Mar 11 2006, 08:08 AM Post #12 |
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Shelgon
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I see more registeel than celebi in aa's server.... Hey why isn't Blissey in staple. Its a tough tank and I from my experience it seems like its common or at least not uncommon |
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| +Sir Spanky | Mar 11 2006, 08:23 AM Post #13 |
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Less bananated than Shippou
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Trait, Blissey, Thick Fat, 1 (no natural cure) Illegal, Chansey, Seismic Toss Illegal, Blissey, Seismic Toss Illegal, Chansey, Aromatherapy Illegal, Blissey, Aromatherapy Noobs shouldn't post in discussion topics for good reason. Spanky |
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Neon Twilight: thats really gay Neon Twilight: so gay Neon Twilight: gayer than bbm and spanky sex gay | |
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| +Bugsy23 | Mar 11 2006, 10:27 AM Post #14 |
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The Future
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Soannoying, I don't recall you having a Standard Mod team either. The only team you ever use is that 6 uber one. |
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| +Sir Spanky | Mar 11 2006, 01:42 PM Post #15 |
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Less bananated than Shippou
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Oh Busgy Porygon2 can be sent back to the pile of crap box. With no Calm Mind it is no longer the defensive beast and the stat-up machine. With no recover it dies to a few attacks. Porygon2 should be BLUU now. Decreasing 3 tiers is certainly an extreme nerf AA :-( Spanky |
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Neon Twilight: thats really gay Neon Twilight: so gay Neon Twilight: gayer than bbm and spanky sex gay | |
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| +bearzly | Mar 11 2006, 01:46 PM Post #16 |
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Tangela
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BLUU is too high for swift swim less ludicolo :-( |
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| Linkman 145 | Mar 12 2006, 07:37 AM Post #17 |
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Delibird
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You can go the other way and do Curse + Recover :P. |
![]() My attempt at Mario vs. Sephiroth. JERRY: Vomitting is not a deal breaker. If Hitler had vomitted on Chamberlain, Chamberlain still would have given him Czechoslovakia. GEORGE: Chamberlain...you could hold his head in the toilet, he'd still give you half of Europe. | |
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| +Sir Spanky | Mar 12 2006, 08:56 AM Post #18 |
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Less bananated than Shippou
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No you can't I had the same idea as you and found out the hard way that that combination is also banned. Spanky |
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Neon Twilight: thats really gay Neon Twilight: so gay Neon Twilight: gayer than bbm and spanky sex gay | |
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| +BBM | Mar 12 2006, 09:16 AM Post #19 |
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hates crunk
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Bring Guts Hera back! He was a great absorber (especially against Weezing ;_;) All he is now is (and I quote Sir Spanky on this one): "Megahorn on a Stick" (or in this case a hard outer shell) I'm guessing he's nowhere near staple now, common atleast. |
| work in progress | |
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| +Amazing Ampharos | Mar 18 2006, 03:26 PM Post #20 |
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Tangela
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As much as I enjoy using my super admin powers to post in closed topic, I guess I should actually post in the appropriate topic. My complaints: uber: I agree, but uber was never a matter of debate. general structure: I think there's too many tiers. I see no real difference between standard and staple(for that matter, I stand by that statement for standard tiers too; Dusclops and co. are not worse than ttar and co; they just win in less flashy ways). The lower tiers don't have any that obviously should be combined, but 5 tiers is just too many for that group. I understand that 2(the original idea) is probably too small, but 3-4 would probably be better. As per specific complaints: staple: Flygon is only there because of personal bias I would surmise. Yes, he's quite good. No, he's not the absolute top of the metagame. Of course, this does help focus the nerf machine. Breaking these things is important. standard: Dragonite < Flygon on your lists still bothers me. Dragonite got a "nerf" that was probably more help than nerf, and he was always better than Flygon. He just got hate because of how ridiculous Sala was and how much Sala made his monster attack look like a detail. Most of what's here seems right although I'm a bit iffy with Jirachi and Medicham. Losing CM hurt Jirachi a lot. And I mean a lot. I think it should go on down to common at least. It seriously does not have a good movepool so those stats have to carry it a long ways. Medicham bothers me because being all out attack no defense doesn't exactly make it king. Farfetch'd does that(trades a little speed for a considerable amount of more attack) and you put him 2 tiers lower. They both come in on stuff they absolutely don't fear such as sleeping Pokemon(CB quakes and shadow balls help out Farfetch'd) and then punish anything and everything that comes in. I don't think that an extra base 20 speed and the fighting type attacking gives Medicham a really definitively better role at this than the 5 more base attack, normal type attacking(including the awesome base 102 Return), dual STAB, and Quick Attack Farfetch'd has. So bump Medicham down a tier and Farfech'd up one. They deserve to sit side by side. Oh yeah, and Metagross should go from "not on the list" to here. Lati@s deserve thought in this as well. Also, Alakazam is not really better than Gardevoir. Common: I think Cradily is getting way too little credit. Curse+a choice of two traits that are awesome in different ways and screw its counters puts it up a tier in my eyes. I think you may have been too kind to Jolteon, but I'm not really definitive on that. I think you really underestimated Meganium. Natural Cure, Sleep Powder, and Aromatherapy earn it a higher spot on the tier list. Regice wasn't nerfed at all; I don't understand how it went down from standard. I don't really see Machamp > Ursaring. Both were on about the same level in standard, and the option of Intimidating and Cursing didn't hurt Ursa(it isn't much since Guts is probably still better, but it's more help than Roar is to Machamp). I can't say whether to move Machamp down or to move Ursaring up, but they belong together. Also, where are Blissey and Swampert? I just noticed this abscence. Borderline Underused: I already mentioned my problems with Ursaring and Farfetch'd. I don't think Entei and Raikou are really still worse than Suicune. Raikou lost sub, but it can still CM and do the electric thing. It's basically GSC Raikou with CM but hurt by the EV cap. That's deserving of a bump up. Entei is just plain underrated. I always put it above Articuno and I put it above Articuno now. I mean, CM + Fire Blast + Ice Beam combined with massive attack if you want to go that route. The thing's a beast. It also get Haze which is pretty cool I guess. I think putting Quagsire ahead of Whiscash wasn't completely fair. Their stats are more or less even(Whiscash has more HP, SA, Speed, and SD, but Quag has more Attack and Defense) and Whiscash gets more cool moves in exchange for water absorb. I think pulling Whiscash up with Quagsire is the correct remedy. Standard Underused: Camerupt needs more love. He deserves to go up a tier at least. This would also elevate him above Piloswine which he definately deserves. I think Pelipper is the same way. You know, it seems like Pokemon seem a bit prejudged based on standard. Pelipper sucking beyond belief in standard seems to be a cause for its current placement. I think Vileplume being this much below Venusaur is just a big mistake. It does have Leech Seed just like Venu, and it gets therapy for free basically. Sure it loses some stats, but it's nothing to cry about. In all honestly I think Piloswine is still a loser and deserves a tier lower, but this place isn't too wrong. I think Typlosion is places a little too low as well. Common Underused: We're now officially into the problem Pokemon. Hmm, Magcargo seems ripped off. Seriously, it got the book thrown at it in the mods, and it shows. It deserves another tier really. I mean, it has no special weaknesses. Kabutops is very, very robbed. Spikes and Selfdestruct earn at least one spot on the tier list. Rock Head Volt Tackle is the same thing for Trode really. Actually, I think most of this tier either deserves moving up or can go with the next lowest one. Most here really deserve to move up. Borderline Neverused: This is the story of how Kingler got thrown in with a bunch of losers. Intimidate, Meteor Mash, and some really good stats earn it a higher spot. Roselia has spore; that almost seems worth a bump. I think you underestimate Tropius; he deserves a bump. I'd say the same thing for Volbeat really. Flareon does have amazing stats and unlike the other Eeveelutions the mods helped him. There just seems to be a lot of varience in quality here. Kingler >>>>>>> Spinda, and that's for sure. Neverused: This is a tier where the absolutely hopeless losers belong. Dustox asks why it is here. Look at the Dustox mod. It's a more defensive Jumpluff. That's really not a bad thing at all. I think it deserves at least two tiers elevation. Lickitung was severely robbed as well. It's like a tank in many ways. At least a tier up for the tongue man. Butterfree doesn't really belong here in my eyes even if he's not much better. He virtually has spore, and that counts for something. I think being a bug/flying or bug/poison automatically gave things a big disadvantage in your eyes which isn't really fair. Sure, Beedrill and Ledian deserve this, but the others aren't so hopeless. Beautifly bothers me as well. It does have a nice special sweeping movepool and enough stats to not totally fail. It deserves a bump. Shuckle is still not great, but it can really do something now. Being able to shrug off some of the stuff it can deserves mention. I think it deserves one tier elevation. I think as a spiker with defense worth noting Nosepass deserves better too. If he can come in on Skarm, he can really, really screw a team up. Wait, what is RELICANTH doing here. He has really good stats, and his movepool's decent too. Way, way too low. He deserves a few tiers elevation. Seaking bothers me too; it's a loser but I don't see it as a Ditto level loser. So yeah, it's not a bad project, but I think it needs some reevaluation. As per organization, I'd suggest combining 2 and 3, and combining 4, 5, and 6 into two tiers. This would give us 6 tiers which is generally more managable than 8. Also, as you can see I object to a lot of placements and I suspect that being good/bad in standard affected several placements. Lastly, you left out several Pokemon. Lati@s, Wobbuffet, Metagross, Swampert, and Blissey were the ones I noticed. There could be others as well. Some of the usable unevolveds that have considerable advantage over their older selves such as Vigoroth, Pikachu, and Trapinch deserve spots as well. |
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| +Sir Spanky | Mar 18 2006, 03:56 PM Post #21 |
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Less bananated than Shippou
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Bugsy and I spent some more time discussing this, with input from tiger too. It seemed fairly sensible to remove several tiers, as you suggested. The most logical explaination to us was to have as little as five tiers. Uber 'High' OU 'Medium/Low' OU UU NU This provides us with four clear metagames. The only trouble is that in standard tournies, will people ever use the tier below high OU? Spanky |
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Neon Twilight: thats really gay Neon Twilight: so gay Neon Twilight: gayer than bbm and spanky sex gay | |
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| osmbv tiger | Mar 18 2006, 04:09 PM Post #22 |
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Delibird
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The gap between high OU and medium/low OU isn't exactly huge anymore. I'm sure they'll get plenty of usage. |
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| Banzo803 | Mar 18 2006, 04:10 PM Post #23 |
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Tangela
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well not really, Electrode would be a M/L OU and he's still one of the best openers, Farfetch'D is still a beast if you manage to get out a passed Agility or something. |
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| +bearzly | Mar 18 2006, 04:13 PM Post #24 |
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Tangela
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sharpedo is way too low with hustle imo |
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| Soannoying | May 6 2006, 02:19 PM Post #25 |
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THEhammer
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shuckle should be moved up from nu since it got roar now Josh can do wonders with it. |
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http://z3.invisionfree.com/CaptainsModdedS...dex.php?act=idx 8558584's tournament: http://z3.invisionfree.com/CaptainsModdedS...hp?showtopic=21 | |
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| +bearzly | Jul 18 2006, 05:33 PM Post #26 |
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Tangela
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scizor is not top tier OU
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