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Ideas to fix some baton pass brokenness
Topic Started: Oct 27 2006, 10:23 AM (864 Views)
NCcyclop17
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*legend*
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Ok, first I would like to say that using a team of sneasel, shuckle, celebi, vaporeon, umbreon (who isn't even needed) and recipiants is basically uncounterable, except for random critical hits and rock blast, which is unreliable and only like 10 pokes get it.

Here are some suggestions I came up with-

Illegal Sneasel- Taunt
With this it can still do what AA intended (pass speed), but it CAN actually be stopped by some things, unlike before.The "automatic" speed it passes from taunt can be very dangerous.

Illegal Rapidash- Protect
Again. it can still do what AA intended, but it doesn't get the "automatic" speed and requires more skill to switch in and baton pass.

Illegal Shuckle- Ingrain, Amnesia (Possibly baton pass)
imo this is the things that makes baton pass teams the most broken, especially ingrain. It makes them unphazable and oly weak to the rare haze or critical hits. Also, I never thought that really bulky things should be able to pass defense boosts (see below)

Illegal Vaporeon- Acid Armor
Again, what I said above about passing defense boosts on bulky pokemon, and also vaporeon gets charm so this wouldn't be a huge nerf.

Illegal Celebi- Baton Pass (Possibly Calm mind and swords dacne and give it growth and meditate)
Celebi is just too hard to counter, buth physical and special and it makes a ton of uu baton passers on this server useless. It still would have many options, but a lot less people would complain about how hard it is to counter.

Here are some that I don't feel as strongly about-

Illegal Manitne- Cosmic Power
This is a lot more debatable, but after the electric pokemon is gone, this is very, very hard to stop (critical hits). Maybe give it either amnesia or iron defense instead.

Illegal Misdreavus- Taunt
Misdreavus isn't extremely fragile and taunt stops any from of phazing that the opponent might try to do. It is hard to beat with only one (rare) phyical weakness and no special ones

There might be more suggestions coming regarding more baton pass nerfs, taunt nerfs, and adding haze to more pokemon.


Before you say that I am overexaggerating, try facing a baton pass team on the server (I know meddle has one like I described). I know baton pass is a semi problem in standard also, but it would be cool to fix that here. Post any other suggestions or comments regarding it here too.
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VampireDude34
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i run sneselwak, without Taunt, simply because of the reason you mentioned.
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+Jolteon
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NCcyclop17
Oct 27 2006, 09:23 AM
Ok, first I would like to say that using a team of sneasel, shuckle, celebi, vaporeon, umbreon (who isn't even needed) and recipiants is basically uncounterable, except for random critical hits and rock blast, which is unreliable and only like 10 pokes get it.

Here are some suggestions I came up with-

Illegal Sneasel- Taunt
With this it can still do what AA intended (pass speed), but it CAN actually be stopped by some things, unlike before.The "automatic" speed it passes from taunt can be very dangerous.

IMO no, with how frail he is (and his typing...) it's quite risky. If you make one or two wrong moves, you die. You need to predict the roar/haze. =/

Illegal Rapidash- Protect
Again. it can still do what AA intended, but it doesn't get the "automatic" speed and requires more skill to switch in and baton pass.

I don't see the point. =/ Protect is just another Sub that wastes a slot. And you can't do much at all with just a single boost, look at Agility's use...

Illegal Shuckle- Ingrain, Amnesia (Possibly baton pass)
imo this is the things that makes baton pass teams the most broken, especially ingrain. It makes them unphazable and oly weak to the rare haze or critical hits. Also, I never thought that really bulky things should be able to pass defense boosts (see below)

Ingrain removal I approve of, Amnesia, no. It's just crit whoring... besides, a CMer will always beat Amnesia.

Illegal Vaporeon- Acid Armor
Again, what I said above about passing defense boosts on bulky pokemon, and also vaporeon gets charm so this wouldn't be a huge nerf.

It's no huge threat imo. It's not even used that much in standard. =/ And Charm<<<<Acid Armor if you're passing...

Illegal Celebi- Baton Pass (Possibly Calm mind and swords dacne and give it growth and meditate)
Celebi is just too hard to counter, buth physical and special and it makes a ton of uu baton passers on this server useless. It still would have many options, but a lot less people would complain about how hard it is to counter.

Not CM imo, and not SD due to ruining physical sets. I approve of BP, though.

Here are some that I don't feel as strongly about-

Illegal Manitne- Cosmic Power
This is a lot more debatable, but after the electric pokemon is gone, this is very, very hard to stop (critical hits). Maybe give it either amnesia or iron defense instead.

Nah, just crit whoring again.

Illegal Misdreavus- Taunt
Misdreavus isn't extremely fragile and taunt stops any from of phazing that the opponent might try to do. It is hard to beat with only one (rare) phyical weakness and no special ones.

See Sneasel. Only difference is that she's more solid, but not enough imo.

There might be more suggestions coming regarding more baton pass nerfs, taunt nerfs, and adding haze to more pokemon.


Before you say that I am overexaggerating, try facing a baton pass team on the server (I know meddle has one like I described). I know baton pass is a semi problem in standard also, but it would be cool to fix that here. Post any other suggestions or comments regarding it here too.

The only BPer I've ever had trouble with was fighting Tiger's Smeargle. =/ I had a tank in, he switched Sneasel in. I couldn't do crap, he just Sub'd, BD'd then passed to Medicham. :x That was the one time I decided not to use Raichu, I needed Encore. <_<;
(21:51:38) meddle: jolteon beats sandslash
(21:51:45) meddle: but both beat shuckle

^the truth

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NCcyclop17
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Ok the point of sneasel and misdreavus is that you can't predict haze/roar, they will always taunt, then bp. Protect over sub on rapidash is so faster pokes (initially) can kill it before it bps. Also if you haven't had trouble with bp, you haven't faced the team I mentioned in the first post.
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+Undergamed
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I use sneasel w/o taunt
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+Crunk Juice
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Yes taunt sneasel needs to go.

BP celebi too, but MissyD is fine =\
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squirtster
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Yes, celery is a whore etc. etc. but if you take away BPing it really isn't left with much. It already lost Leech Seed, then it lost its DD set. If BP is taken away it really doesn't have much but Calm Mind/Psychic/Heal Bell/Recover with the odd CM/HP Grass/Psychic/Recover or something gay like that >_>

EDIT: not to mention loss of natural cure too
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NCcyclop17
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squirtster
Oct 27 2006, 04:20 PM
Yes, celery is a whore etc. etc. but if you take away BPing it really isn't left with much.  It already lost Leech Seed, then it lost its DD set.  If BP is taken away it really doesn't have much but Calm Mind/Psychic/Heal Bell/Recover with the odd CM/HP Grass/Psychic/Recover or something gay like that >_>

EDIT: not to mention loss of natural cure too

Don't forget it can also be physical also with swords dance shadow ball and hp fighting. It also can pass reflect and light screen and can stop last poke sweepers with perish song. It still has a ton of options even with out bp and still has those amazing stats. This could actually let pokes like xatu, hypno, lunatone, mr. mime etc. get some use when celebi is just plain better than them now.
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Nuked
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Read something more interesting.
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NCcyclop17
Oct 27 2006, 11:23 AM

Illegal Sneasel- Taunt
With this it can still do what AA intended (pass speed), but it CAN actually be stopped by some things, unlike before.The "automatic" speed it passes from taunt can be very dangerous.

I'm okay with it. Doesn't hurt it too much, but takes away something it could use

Illegal Rapidash- Protect
Again. it can still do what AA intended, but it doesn't get the "automatic" speed and requires more skill to switch in and baton pass.

Protect is a universal move, taking it away should only be under very dire circumstances

Illegal Shuckle- Ingrain, Amnesia (Possibly baton pass)
imo this is the things that makes baton pass teams the most broken, especially ingrain.  It makes them unphazable and oly weak to the rare haze or critical hits.  Also, I never thought that really bulky things should be able to pass defense boosts (see below)

Just take out Ingrain, Amnesia passing isn't a huge threat

Illegal Vaporeon- Acid Armor
Again, what I said above about passing defense boosts on bulky pokemon, and also vaporeon gets charm so this wouldn't be a huge nerf.

I have yet to see Acid Armor Vappy used, so I have no comment

Illegal Celebi- Baton Pass (Possibly Calm mind and swords dacne and give it growth and meditate)
Celebi is just too hard to counter, buth physical and special and it makes a ton of uu baton passers on this server useless.  It still would have many options, but a lot less people would complain about how hard it is to counter.


Just baton pass, taking out CM and SD would ruin it


Illegal Manitne- Cosmic Power
This is a lot more debatable, but after the electric pokemon is gone, this is very, very hard to stop (critical hits).  Maybe give it either amnesia or iron defense instead.

I'd go with replacing it with Iron Defense.

Illegal Misdreavus- Taunt
Misdreavus isn't extremely fragile and taunt stops any from of phazing that the opponent might try to do.  It is hard to beat with only one (rare) phyical weakness and no special ones

MissyD is fine as is

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NCcyclop17
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By the way, when I said take away calm mind and swords dance, I meant instead of baton pass not in addition to.
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+BBM
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I'm only really for the removal of Taunt Sneasel. It's way too hard to stop since it can Taunt the phaze and get a free swords dance in which can be deadly to a team if passed.

MissyD needs it imo.

All the other suggestions =/
work in progress
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