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A SSBB tier list; Just here so I can link to it elsewhere
Topic Started: Sep 27 2008, 06:15 PM (2,879 Views)
+Amazing Ampharos
Tangela
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Top
Mr. Game & Watch
Snake
Meta Knight
Marth
Toon Link
Falco

Upper
R.O.B.
Ice Climbers
King Dedede
Pikachu
Diddy Kong

High
Olimar
Donkey Kong
Wario
Lucario
Wolf

Middle
Ness
Kirby
Ike
Luigi
Zelda & Sheik
Zero Suit Samus
Fox
Pit
Peach

Low
Jigglypuff
Link
Pokemon Trainer
Yoshi
Lucas
Sonic

Bottom
Bowser
Mario
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Samus
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+Sandslash
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inferior
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y ike no oober
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+Crunk Juice
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bbm is (super) gay
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i like ike too.

he did destroy houston <_<

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+Amazing Ampharos
Tangela
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Shoddy Battle Super Smash Brothers Brawl Tier List

#: Character (The Atheist, Colin, Amazing Ampharos, Light, Average)

Top:
1: Mr. Game & Watch: (2, 2, 1, 1, 1.5)
2: Meta Knight: (1, 1, 3, 3, 2)
3: Snake: (3, 4, 2, 2, 2.75)
4: Falco: (4, 3, 6, 4, 4.25)
5: Marth: (5, 5, 4, 6, 5)

Upper:
6: Toon Link: (7, 6, 5, 9, 6.75)
6: King Dedede: (6, 7, 9, 5, 6.75)
8: R.O.B.: (8, 13, 7, 7, 8.75)
9: Ice Climbers: (9, 8, 8, 12, 9.25)
10: Diddy Kong: (10, 11, 11, 8, 10)
11: Olimar: (12, 9, 12, 10, 10.75)

High:
12: Pikachu: (13, 14, 10, 11, 12)
13: Donkey Kong: (11, 10, 13, 18, 13)
14: Wario: (16, 19, 14, 13, 15.5)
15: Lucario: (14, 12, 15, 22, 15.75)
16: Ness: (15, 15, 17, 16, 15.75)
17: Wolf: (18, 17, 16, 15, 16.5)
18: Kirby: (17, 16, 18, 17, 17)

Middle:
19: Ike: (20, 23, 19, 14, 19)
20: Pit: (19, 18, 24, 19, 20)
21: Luigi: (21, 20, 20, 23, 21)
22: Zero Suit Samus: (22, 21, 22, 20, 21.25)
23: Zelda & Sheik: (23, 24, 21, 21, 22.25)
24: Peach: (24, 22, 25, 24, 23.75)
25: Fox: (25, 25, 23, 26, 24.75)

Low:
26: Pokemon Trainer: (26, 27, 28, 31, 28)
27: Lucas: (27, 28, 30, 28, 28.25)
28: Jigglypuff: (30, 31, 26, 27, 28.5)
29: Yoshi: (28, 29, 29, 30, 29)
30: Sonic: (31, 30, 31, 25, 29.25)
31: Bowser: (29, 26, 32, 32, 29.75)
32: Link: (32, 33, 27, 29, 30.25)

Bottom:
33: Mario: (33, 32, 33, 34, 33)
34: Ganondorf: (35, 35, 34, 33, 34.25)
35: Samus: (34, 34, 36, 36, 35)
36: Captain Falcon: (36, 36, 35, 35, 35.5)

Original Tier Sizes:
The Atheist: 5, 0, 7, 8, 8, 8
Colin: 5, 4, 7, 8, 7, 5
Amazing Ampharos: 6, 5, 5, 9, 6, 5
Light: 6, 6, 5, 8, 6, 5
Edited by Amazing Ampharos, Sep 29 2008, 05:02 AM.
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+Jolteon
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Army of fgts
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g&w is not top
(21:51:38) meddle: jolteon beats sandslash
(21:51:45) meddle: but both beat shuckle

^the truth

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+Undergamed
IM GAY
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am i missing something with game and watch?
Everytime I get him it's always... sausage, sausage, sausage, hammer
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shuckle14
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Bananated
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Crunk Juice
Sep 28 2008, 08:09 PM
i like ike too.

he did destroy houston <_<

Ike needs to die a horrible and painful death. Seriously.
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+Crunk Juice
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bbm is (super) gay
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=( im sowwy shuckle

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+Jolteon
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Army of fgts
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Undergamed
Sep 30 2008, 03:38 PM
am i missing something with game and watch?
Everytime I get him it's always... sausage, sausage, sausage, hammer
You are missing.... a lot.

G&W is definitely top tier, no doubt about that. But I fail to see at all how he is better than MK or Snake, and I'd put Falco over him (as well as putting Falco over Marth).

I do main him so don't say I have a vendetta against him. :s

Why is ROB so low/Ice Climbers so high?
(21:51:38) meddle: jolteon beats sandslash
(21:51:45) meddle: but both beat shuckle

^the truth

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+Crunk Juice
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bbm is (super) gay
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
the real question is why game and watch doesnt use bacon

on a serious note my friend owned me yesterday with toon link like 3 times :(

then i beat him 3 times
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+Jolteon
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Army of fgts
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toon link combos are dumb

back air back air back air back air back air back air
(21:51:38) meddle: jolteon beats sandslash
(21:51:45) meddle: but both beat shuckle

^the truth

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+Sandslash
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inferior
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'tier lists' are dumb <_< >_>

not really but HEH
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RiverShock
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Spellcheck is your friend.
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*Agrees with Sandslash*
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+Jolteon
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Army of fgts
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
yeah, tier lists are dumb

I mean,

Anyone who says that all match-ups aren't 50/50 is definitely not dumb, especially not something as clearly balanced as ness vs marth.
(21:51:38) meddle: jolteon beats sandslash
(21:51:45) meddle: but both beat shuckle

^the truth

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squirtster
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Tangela
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
SBR's first tier list, if anyone is interested/hasn't seen it yet

Top
Meta Knight
Snake
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
R.O.B.

High
Marth
Wario
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Diddy
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Pit
Wolf

Middle
Toon Link
Olimar
Fox
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Bowser
Luigi
Peach
Ike
Sheik

Low
Lucas
Ness
Mario
Pokémon Trainer
Samus
Yoshi
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Link
Captain Falcon





Olimar in mid made me sadface =(
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+Jolteon
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Army of fgts
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Olimar can be incredibly annoying but when you work on gimp strategies you see why he is only mid.

One grab near the edge and my G&W kills him.
(21:51:38) meddle: jolteon beats sandslash
(21:51:45) meddle: but both beat shuckle

^the truth

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squirtster
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Tangela
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haha i'm so out of the brawl loop

i was ready to be hardcore when it first came out, but i haven't played much in the past few months. last time i checked, people were saying that snake was undeniably better than everyone else, and olimar and toon link were top tier
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shuckle14
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Bananated
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Donkey Kong being above Diddy is a fucking travesty. TRAVESTY I SAY. TRAVESTYYYYYYYY

I am also deeply saddened by the fact that Toon Link is in Middle Tier
Edited by shuckle14, Oct 4 2008, 11:56 PM.
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+Jolteon
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Army of fgts
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DK is too good and has gay spacing (but gets raped by DDD).

I agree Squiser, I think I've gotten worse I can't play G&W as well now :< (though my marth is better lool).
(21:51:38) meddle: jolteon beats sandslash
(21:51:45) meddle: but both beat shuckle

^the truth

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squirtster
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Tangela
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haha...i might have to pick up g+w if i get back into it

my ptrainer still rapes the shit out of all my friends though.
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+Jolteon
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Army of fgts
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lol, PT would piss me off having to learn 3 guys in one, but I <3 the irony of the weak as hell rock smash being stronger than basically everything in the game.

g&w is too good, I should really use him properly again. I've been working on loadss of gimp strats with Marth and they work 50/50 with prediction so my g&w took a hit now. >_> I just use him vs Pika/Pit/Falco, kind of ironic for someone I main. :x
(21:51:38) meddle: jolteon beats sandslash
(21:51:45) meddle: but both beat shuckle

^the truth

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+Amazing Ampharos
Tangela
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Haha, this post has been sitting ready to make for days and I just forgot it.

Olimar can actually be really obnoxious though, and as long as he minimizes jumping, doesn't hang out near the ledge, and recovers as quickly as possible, he's relatively safe from gimping (none of these things are against his general playstyle regardless of recovery). Olimar is probably the single hardest character for Mr. Game & Watch to approach in the game if he plays smart (read: campy). Mr. Game & Watch can be pretty deadly to Olimar once he gets going, but Olimar can use Pikmin Whistle like a get out of jail free card. Honestly, I don't care if his recovery sucks; he's too amazing defensively with too many amazing properties all around to be lower than high tier.

The averaged list puts R.O.B. at 8th, and I'm not sure you could really justify more for him. He's definitely good, but he has the major issue that he's just plain not very damaging other than his down smash. R.O.B. also has some problems with aerial specialists; I'm confident that Mr. Game & Watch is a bad matchup for him and would guess that Meta Knight is too (I really don't mind fighting him as Jigglypuff, and look at how low she is!). I have long viewed R.O.B. as "really well suited to be high up on the second tier", and nothing I've seen has really changed my mind there.

Ice Climbers are getting theory points more than anything; it's just so obvious they are underperforming right now. Their placement assumes a level of play such that the ICs player ALWAYS kills out of a grab with Nana at hand; it's truly shocking how many ICs players don't do that. The fact that they have a quick instant kill move they can do right out of their shield is a big boon, and even if they don't have quite as much killing power as in melee, they are still the most damaging character in the cast when synched. If anything, I wouldn't be surprised to see them move up with time; the Ice Climbers are easily the most terrifying character in the game. Every other character has to fight them like Ness has to fight Marth (i.e. don't get grabbed... except Ness can live if grabbed near edges and on certain stages in general while a stage hazard is your only hope if the Ice Climbers grab you).

About Mr. Game & Watch, his matchups are really just incredible. He goes evenly at worst against Meta Knight, has at worst a slight disadvantage to Snake, has a clear advantage on Falco, has at worst a slight disadvantage to Marth, has a disadvantage to Toon Link (but it's not terrible), has a clear and rather big advantage on King Dedede, and then going down the cast generally doesn't have too many problems (the only characters I worry about that I didn't mention are Olimar, Link, and Ike... and the latter two are probably even while Olimar seems like he should have a slight advantage on paper though most Olimar players are insufficiently campy to be a threat). I'm not really buying that Meta Knight has no disadvantages either... The top group is pretty close though; I see arguing between Mr. Game & Watch/Meta Knight/Snake like arguing between Fox/Marth/Sheik in melee (the funny thing is that Falco seems to have the same role in both games).

I also really like the averaged list quite a bit; I think it turned out somewhat better than my personal effort. I am not a big fan of the SBR list; I think they made a few really bad judgments on characters (Ike is WAY better than Bowser, Ness is WAY better than Lucas, Link is not worse than Ganondorf at all, Jigglypuff is not worse than Samus at all, etc.).
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squirtster
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Tangela
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ike lower then bowser definitely threw me for a while, and i agree that ICs should be up there. it seems to me like they're going through what fox went through in melee - insane potential, just no one can use it all yet. other than that, i really don't know enough about the game to make a comment like that =(

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+Jolteon
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Quote:
 
Olimar can actually be really obnoxious though, and as long as he minimizes jumping, doesn't hang out near the ledge, and recovers as quickly as possible, he's relatively safe from gimping (none of these things are against his general playstyle regardless of recovery). Olimar is probably the single hardest character for Mr. Game & Watch to approach in the game if he plays smart (read: campy). Mr. Game & Watch can be pretty deadly to Olimar once he gets going, but Olimar can use Pikmin Whistle like a get out of jail free card. Honestly, I don't care if his recovery sucks; he's too amazing defensively with too many amazing properties all around to be lower than high tier.


I do realise that a smart Olimar would not be getting gimped all too often, but it still does happen and he's definitely the character that gets most harshly punished. G&W can pressure Olimar at close range, and all it takes is one grab in a game where it's not as difficult as Melee. As you said the most difficult part of that is approaching him (it's still quite possible with Nair approach actually, but you'll still take damage), but once you get in Olimar's range you have a very large range of moves that limits Olimar's options and lets you push him toward the edge and get the grab. That's it, one grab and all of Olimar's hard work is down the drain.

It's definitely not the first time a character is regarded as garbage due to recovery (especially because having at least a decent recovery in Brawl is incredibly important). Link in 64 is my primary case, being considered by many to be the worst in the game due to his recovery in a game where you can death combo half the time anyway. He's strong, disjointed, has good range and projectiles, but his recovery just makes him garbage. There's also Link in Brawl atm who wouldn't be that low with a decent recovery, same with Ganon.

Quote:
 
The averaged list puts R.O.B. at 8th, and I'm not sure you could really justify more for him. He's definitely good, but he has the major issue that he's just plain not very damaging other than his down smash. R.O.B. also has some problems with aerial specialists; I'm confident that Mr. Game & Watch is a bad matchup for him and would guess that Meta Knight is too (I really don't mind fighting him as Jigglypuff, and look at how low she is!). I have long viewed R.O.B. as "really well suited to be high up on the second tier", and nothing I've seen has really changed my mind there.


That's not so much of an issue as his down smash is highly abusable and can punish often (much like Marth's Dancing Blade), not to mention he's actually quite a good gimper. His KO ability is an issue, but I've definitely seen it worked around. He has so much of what you would want, decent tilts, great recovery, good edgeguarding, you can punish bad DI through an unexpected Fair combo, he can space well and he has quite possibly the most unpredictable projectile in the game. I would agree with the aerial problem though, ROB seems to have problems with people under him or to his back.

Quote:
 
Ice Climbers are getting theory points more than anything; it's just so obvious they are underperforming right now. Their placement assumes a level of play such that the ICs player ALWAYS kills out of a grab with Nana at hand; it's truly shocking how many ICs players don't do that. The fact that they have a quick instant kill move they can do right out of their shield is a big boon, and even if they don't have quite as much killing power as in melee, they are still the most damaging character in the cast when synched. If anything, I wouldn't be surprised to see them move up with time; the Ice Climbers are easily the most terrifying character in the game. Every other character has to fight them like Ness has to fight Marth (i.e. don't get grabbed... except Ness can live if grabbed near edges and on certain stages in general while a stage hazard is your only hope if the Ice Climbers grab you).


Much like Melee. All over again. Potential just waiting to be tapped, but yep, just theory for now. Your Marth vs Ness analogy is somewhat correct, ignoring one vital problem, approach. Marth has a much easier time getting a grab than the Ice Climbers with their poor approach (the fact that they're not the fastest runners and that you need BOTH of them alive to be able to 0-death doesn't make it easier).

Quote:
 
About Mr. Game & Watch, his matchups are really just incredible. He goes evenly at worst against Meta Knight, has at worst a slight disadvantage to Snake, has a clear advantage on Falco, has at worst a slight disadvantage to Marth, has a disadvantage to Toon Link (but it's not terrible), has a clear and rather big advantage on King Dedede, and then going down the cast generally doesn't have too many problems (the only characters I worry about that I didn't mention are Olimar, Link, and Ike... and the latter two are probably even while Olimar seems like he should have a slight advantage on paper though most Olimar players are insufficiently campy to be a threat). I'm not really buying that Meta Knight has no disadvantages either... The top group is pretty close though; I see arguing between Mr. Game & Watch/Meta Knight/Snake like arguing between Fox/Marth/Sheik in melee (the funny thing is that Falco seems to have the same role in both games).


I'm well aware that G&W has amazing matchups, but then again, so does a majority of the Top and some of the High tier. I believe that MK/Snake can be just as debatable as Fox/Sheik can be, but I don't understand how you can pull G&W into that list when his position is seen closer with DDD's and Falco's more than it is with MK/Snake.

Also, I agree, I believe that MK is disadvantaged against Marth. As the metagame develops I wouldn't be surprised if he got one-two more slight disadvantages.

Quote:
 
I also really like the averaged list quite a bit; I think it turned out somewhat better than my personal effort. I am not a big fan of the SBR list; I think they made a few really bad judgments on characters (Ike is WAY better than Bowser, Ness is WAY better than Lucas, Link is not worse than Ganondorf at all, Jigglypuff is not worse than Samus at all, etc.).


Ike has NO safe options anymore, not even his Jab. Bowser on the other hand does, his spacing isn't too much worse, he has a better shield game, he's faster and Ike is much easier to gimp. Both kill ridiculously easy, although to be fair Ike does a better job.

I'm not experienced at all with Ness vs Lucas, so I won't input on that. Both Link and Ganon are pretty bad with similar problems, but I really do believe Ganon is a lot better than he is being given credit for. Godly tech chase game, great USmash that can combo due to IASA frames, he's actually a good edgeguarder, decent tilts (lol u-tilt) and aerials that are great when autocancelled.

I can't admit being too experienced with Jiggs either, but from what I can see she still has her amazing aerial mobility and WoP potential. The thing is... that seems much less effective in Brawl. She no longer has almost garunteed edgeguards, Rest is weaker, you can do a good job at aerial approach now, move deteration kills WoP.

Samus has decent combos, can edgeguard well, has a simply amazing spacing game, amazing recovery, decent projectiles and quite a few grab followups. She does however suck horribly at getting a KO, though Jiggs has a similar problem now that Rest isn't nearly as easy to land and can therefore end up being punished quite badly.
Edited by Jolteon, Oct 7 2008, 03:49 PM.
(21:51:38) meddle: jolteon beats sandslash
(21:51:45) meddle: but both beat shuckle

^the truth

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uberhaxx0r
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your mother
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umm... wat
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+Amazing Ampharos
Tangela
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
More stuff for me to link to.

Jump times:

4 frame:

Sheik
Pikachu
Squirtle
Kirby
Meta Knight
Ice Climbers
Samus
Zero Suit Samus
Diddy Kong
Lucas

5 frame:

Mario
Luigi
Peach
Toon Link
Ivysaur
Lucario
Pit
Olimar
Marth
Ness
Fox
Wolf
Captain Falcon
Mr. Game & Watch
R.O.B.

6 frame:

Wario
Yoshi
Zelda
Jigglypuff
King Dedede
Donkey Kong
Ike

7 frame:

Link
Ganondorf
Charizard

8 frame:

Bowser

9 frame:

Snake

Unlisted:

Falco
Sonic
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+Amazing Ampharos
Tangela
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A random talking point.

Precision: Bowser, Link, Zelda, Toon Link, Samus, Pit, R.O.B., Olimar, Ivysaur, Charizard, Marth, Ike, Ness, Mr. Game & Watch, Snake

Middle Ground: DK, Yoshi, Ganon, Zero Suit Samus, King Dedede, Lucario, Jigglypuff, Lucas

Flow: Mario, Luigi, Peach, Diddy, Wario, Sheik, Ice Climbers, Kirby, Meta Knight, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Captain Falcon, Pikachu, Squirtle, Sonic
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+Amazing Ampharos
Tangela
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My more up to date opinions on how good the characters actually are, now with more ambiguity. Consider the same number an absolute tie; they are ordered alphabetically within a tie, and it doesn't mean anything.

Top

1. Meta Knight
1. Mr. Game & Watch
1. Snake
4. Falco
4. Marth

Upper

6. Diddy Kong
6. King Dedede
6. Toon Link
9. Olimar
9. R.O.B.
11. Ice Climbers
11. Pikachu

High

13. Wario
14. Lucario
14. Wolf
16. Donkey Kong
16. Kirby
16. Ness
16. Pit

Mid

20. Ike
20. Zelda/Sheik
20. Zero Suit Samus
23. Luigi
23. Peach

Low

25. Fox
25. Jigglypuff
25. Lucas
25. Pokemon Trainer
29. Bowser
29. Link
29. Sonic
29. Yoshi

Bottom

33. Ganondorf
33. Mario
35. Captain Falcon
35. Samus
Edited by Amazing Ampharos, Jan 3 2009, 05:50 AM.
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+Sandslash
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inferior
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fe11 is awesome
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+hotdogturtle
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Tangela
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I'm going to read this and comment again, now that I've been playing the game consistently for many months and I have more experience.
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