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A SSBB tier list; Just here so I can link to it elsewhere
Topic Started: Sep 27 2008, 06:15 PM (2,881 Views)
shuckle14
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Bananated
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New Teir list

SS Tier
Meta Knight 15.00

S Tier
Snake 13.91

A Tier
Falco 13.03
King Dedede 12.94
Mr. Game & Watch 12.50
Marth 12.09
Diddy Kong 11.94

B Tier
Wario 11.47
R.O.B. 11.38
Lucario 10.94
Olimar 10.94

C Tier
Pikachu 10.34
Kirby 10.16
Donkey Kong 10.06
Ice Climbers 9.59

D Tier
Zero Suit Samus 8.88
Toon Link 8.47
Pit 8.44
Peach 8.16
Wolf 7.91

E Tier
Luigi 7.41
Zelda 7.03
Bowser 6.91
Fox 6.66
Sheik 6.44
Ike 5.91

F Tier
Mario 4.56
Lucas 4.50
Ness 4.50
Samus 4.41
Sonic 4.16
Pokémon Trainer 3.94
Yoshi 3.66

G Tier
Link 2.28
Jigglypuff 2.03
Ganondorf 1.88
Captain Falcon 1.63
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wheres marcus from gears of war
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fe7 marcus>all
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yaaaaaaaar
Edited by Sandslash, Jan 6 2009, 06:06 AM.
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get off game and watch's dick you cumswaddling anal pirate
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shuckle14
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I agree Diddy Kong > Game and Watch
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squirtster
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g+w for pres

aa why you put mario so low =(

btw hdt your sig made me lol
Edited by squirtster, Jan 7 2009, 04:37 PM.
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TigerPrezX (uber): getting laid > pokemon
TigerPrezX (uber): er
TigerPrezX (uber): paid*
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ALTHOUGH HIS MUSIC IS PRETTY GENERIC I STILL KIND OF ENJOY LLOYDS RNB TUNES
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mario is so low because he's shit.

I love g&w and he's clearly top tier (ignoring the bs tiers with one char only) but I do also really disagree with aa on him being #1 or tied #1.

g&w>diddy though. diddy's great and all but g&w has so much more (including a recovery that doesn't suck balls)
(21:51:38) meddle: jolteon beats sandslash
(21:51:45) meddle: but both beat shuckle

^the truth

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shuckle14
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Jan 8 2009, 07:29 PM
mario is so low because he's shit.

I love g&w and he's clearly top tier (ignoring the bs tiers with one char only) but I do also really disagree with aa on him being #1 or tied #1.

g&w>diddy though. diddy's great and all but g&w has so much more (including a recovery that doesn't suck balls)
You shut your filthy little whore mouth >:(
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shuckle14
Jan 9 2009, 04:44 PM
Tails chao
Jan 8 2009, 07:29 PM
mario is so low because he's shit.

I love g&w and he's clearly top tier (ignoring the bs tiers with one char only) but I do also really disagree with aa on him being #1 or tied #1.

g&w>diddy though. diddy's great and all but g&w has so much more (including a recovery that doesn't suck balls)
You shut your filthy little whore mouth >:(
or my big black penis will shut it for you
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The last list was based on my more subjective assessment of the cast. I tried redoing the list basing it off how I assess matchups (which involved me doing a lot of research on character boards and reading up), and I got an... interesting list. This list was largely calculated as opposed to decided. Do note everyone in Low tier and lower was not really given a "fair" analysis given the weaker general knowledge about those characters and the added computational complexity that I didn't feel like getting into; it's completely plausible that my method was unfair to Zelda/Sheik and Peach (obviously the best two of the characters in low tier and lower based on my matchup perspective of them). My analysis suggests that the final "stable" metagame, if I'm right about matchups, would basically boil down to the top three tiers here with obviously less use the further down you go. Mid tier is basically the set of characters that "failed" matchup analysis (DK and Wolf only because King Dedede is a really bad matchup as opposed to a normal bad matchup, the other three just bring nothing to the table someone else doesn't and are mostly negative against the characters better than them).

To be clear, this tier list isn't really something I'm sure is representative of the quality of these characters since it's very plausible that I was wrong about a bunch of matchups, etc. (I think I was mostly good though), and my methods were probably imperfect. It's certainly not a representation of the current metagame; that's for sure... Consider it nothing but interesting. Placements relative to the current SBR list are noted. Um, go Ness?

Top tier

1. Meta Knight [0]
2. Marth [+4]
3. Olimar [+7]
4. Snake [-2]
5. Falco [-2]

Upper Tier

6. Mr. Game & Watch [-1]
7. Toon Link [+10]
8. Zero Suit Samus [+8]
9. Kirby [+4]
10. Wario [-2]

High Tier (last "viable" tier)

11. Ness [+16]
12. Diddy Kong [-5]
13. R.O.B. [-4]
14. King Dedede [-10]
15. Pikachu [-3]

Mid Tier

16. Wolf [+4]
17. Donkey Kong [-3]
18. Ice Climbers [-3]
18. Pit [0]
20. Lucario [-10]

Low Tier

21. Zelda/Sheik [+1]
22. Peach [-3]
23. Luigi [-2]
24. Lucas [+3]
24. Pokemon Trainer [+7]
26. Ike [-1]

Lower Tier

27. Fox [-3]
28. Yoshi [+4]
29. Bowser [-6]
29. Sonic [+1]
31. Link [+2]
32. Jigglypuff [+2]

Bottom (way below even the second lowest tier; these guys are really awful)

33. Ganondorf [+2]
33. Mario [-7]
35. Captain Falcon [+1]
35. Samus [-6]
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If DK is low b/c he has one really bad matchup, why is ness so high?


OMFG BIAS
Edited by BBM, Jan 10 2009, 12:43 PM.
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Ness doesn't have one really bad matchup? Marth's chaingrab doesn't actually work on Ness; King Dedede's infinite on DK actually does work.
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splain yourself foo
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Ness can escape Marth's 'infinite' by using this thing called Extra-Inch DI. It allows Ness to get some extra distance when he escapes Marth's grab on the ground. I'm pretty sure Marth can still chain grab Ness by using a dash grab though. I've also heard it puts Ness in perfect position for a tippered dsmash from Marth.

I really think you are overestimating ZSS, Olimar and Ness. I think ZSS is underrated on the SBR tier list, but I definitely don't think she is a top 10 character. The main problem with ZSS is her lack of reliable killing moves. Her plasma whip is a good killing move when it's fresh, but it's also ZSS' best spacing move and is pretty much never fresh. Her other killing moves are pretty much only bair and upair, and maybe her flip kick. Bair is a solid kill move, but it's easy to see coming and most of the time will only kill you when comboed from a dsmash. Upair is only reliable against lighter characters; against heavy characters, it doesn't kill until like 150%+. Flip kick is a powerful meteor smash and even has solid knockback on its non-meteor hit, but it's also extremely punishable when shielded. I think she should either be bottom high tier or top of mid tier, or somewhere in that area.

I also think Olimar is underrated on the SBR list, but I don't think he is a top 10 character either. His recovery is just so easily edgeguarded that I think it singlehandedly prevents him from ever being a top tier character. I would also put him at either bottom of high tier or top of mid tier personally.

I know you don't actually think Ness is high tier, but I understand don't worry (I've heard rumours that anyone who says Ness isn't high tier gets permbanned [I've also heard Colin eats babies]). I would personally move him to like middle of mid tier, but that's just me.

I also think you are really underrating Bowser, Ike, Peach and Lucario. Bowser is just plain better than everyone else in his tier lol. Seriously, other than Dedede and Kirby, Bowser actually has a decent matchup against everyone in your top 15 (and I personally don't even have that many problems against Kirby, but from what I've heard it's a 65-35 or 70-30 matchup). I would move Bowser up to the top of low tier, or second place in low tier just behind Ike.

Ike is the same thing; I just plain think he's better than everyone else in his tier (other than Peach, who I don't think should be in low tier in the first place). I would either move Ike up to top of low tier or bottom of mid tier.

Peach is really good. Like, the only thing Peach can't do well is killing consistently. She has a good recovery (not as good as melee because of her lack of second jump obviously, but still good), actual combos (!!!), huge vertical range on moves like her uptilt and upair, a solid grab game and chain grabs on some characters, and the list goes on. From my knowledge, her best KO move is a sweetspotted upsmash, but that isn't very reliable. Her only reliable kill moves are fsmash and fair, and the latter is often stale. She can still kill with smart edgeguarding, though. I still haven't even mentioned things like turnips (which are still good, but worse than in melee because they are a lot easier to catch), her great shield pressuring game (floating dairs at head level, lagless fairs, 2 frame jab), or her fucking annoying side taunt (lalalalalala). I really think she is about as good as ZSS, and should be somewhere around top of mid tier/bottom of high tier.

Lucario is a ridiculous priority machine :( He has arguably the best fsmash in the game, actual combos, a chain grab (kind of, with force palm), solid edgeguarding options, a decent recovery, a good projectile, excellent rolls, and auraaaaaaa. I definitely think he is at least middle of high tier, maybe even in the top 10 (instead of Wario), I dunno. All I know is that he's good.

I have other little issues with this list, but a lot of them are just minor details.

EDIT: oof this is a long post
Edited by Phiddlesticks, Jan 10 2009, 11:13 PM.
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Like I said, that list was calculated, not decided. Like, I decided those top 20 were top 20 and worked that out based on matchups as far as I could see them; the order entirely came from that. Note that this means that things like "kill power", "recovery", etc. didn't really matter except insofar as they made a character win or lose a certain matchup.

I was really surprised at how highly Zero Suit Samus placed there, but it makes sense. Zero Suit Samus can get you over the edge pretty easily with her aerials which does a lot more for her killing potential than you'd think. Her down special also hits really hard even if it's hard to hit with; I'm not sure she has much in terms of killing trouble. Either way, when I was thinking about her matchups, I looked at her as going even with tons of good characters even if she doesn't have that many real advantage matchups. The fact that she can safely and reliably poke inside of huge range makes her pretty even with Meta Knight, Mr. Game & Watch, and Marth, and I'm pretty sure the ZSS players agree. That's a big deal!

Ness was another surprisingly high ranking character. The midpoint of the cast is where I would have put him until I really tried looking at his matchups. Basically, he doesn't really have that many bad matchups. I had him losing to Meta Knight, Snake, Mr. Game & Watch, Marth, and Falco... but I think those are his only actually bad matchups. He also beats Olimar, and it's pretty easy to see if you actually try fighting Ness with Olimar and you can't spam pikmin very well because of Pk Fire. That overall matchup outlook of losing to most of the top characters while beating one important one and then not really losing to anyone else ended up taking Ness pretty far... He has a lot of really huge positives if you look at his attributes too; it's not hard to believe that everyone is just missing the point with Ness and that he's way better than his current performance would indicate.

Olimar's recovery is taken to a pretty silly extreme. Let's be honest; most recoveries in brawl are high, not low. Olimar has a decent enough double jump, and the fact that he can whistle through stuff means that his recovery from high is actually well above average. If he moves quickly, he can usually trade stock if he has to recover low with the pikmin chain meteor. The only way you gimp Olimar and live is if you can get on the ledge and have enough time to ledge roll before Olimar can tether it. That pretty much only happens if Olimar gets hit out really far and is in the magnifying glass or if you were already edgeguarding Olimar (like you already have hit him back out once after the initial hit that put him out in the first place). Being hit out really far and low is seriously super rare in this game if you can DI; it's not a big deal. The second isn't very common because he can whistle through everything... Olimar is also an amazing camper, and even guys like Meta Knight find him very hard to approach. He can pressure long range amazingly well, and Olimar has exceptional KO power. His high position from the calculations was initially surprising, but as I thought about it, it seemed far more reasonable. I think top 10 for Olimar was obvious all along by the way (he is tied for #10 SBR by the way); I was only commenting that number 3 seemed pretty surprising to me.

I didn't put nearly as much work into 21 on down just because I didn't use a fancy algorithm to calculate it. I already said that I was probably (read: definitely) underrating Zelda/Sheik and Peach just because they weren't assumed from the start to be top 20 (so they ended up at 21 and 22). Speaking of those two, I think Zelda/Sheik is better than Peach; Peach is better than either alone, but the way they cover each other's bad matchups and can switch off effectively in some others puts them above her. But yeah, if I go back and touch this up, Zelda/Sheik and Peach are definitely getting a more fair treatment which almost inevitably means them moving up.

With Bowser's placement and low tiers in general, I did it pretty simply. I grouped their matchups as "win/even/lose/lose very badly". Bowser loses very badly to King Dedede, he doesn't actually have any positive matchups among the top 15, and he doesn't even have many that are actually even. Guys like Falco, Snake, Olimar, R.O.B., and Toon Link have way too much fun spamming him out, the fortress doesn't really protect him from Meta Knight/Marth/Mr. Game & Watch pressure because of range, and even his seemingly big deal against Wario with the release grabs has a sour note as Wario has a nasty chaingrab on Bowser too. Then, like you said, he runs into big trouble with Kirby, and he happens to lose to Ness, Zero Suit Samus, or Diddy Kong as well. That's all of them... I'm pretty sure I ended up saying Bowser was even with Wario because it's just whoever grabs first really, and somewhere I think I claimed he was even with someone else when I worked this out, but really, this isn't better than Sonic or anyone else on that tier. No one in low (as opposed to lower) has a matchup as bad as Bowser vs King Dedede, and they all have several legitimately even matchups among the best characters.

With Ike, well, I'm pretty sure Zelda/Sheik is way better than him and needs to move up to the next group with Peach (I already went over those two). So really I was only putting him below Luigi, Lucas, and Pokemon Trainer in his tier. Luigi is very obnoxious for several of the better characters, Lucas may not be Ike strong but is still pretty strong and much unlike Ike is very hard to spam out, and Pokemon Trainer may be a real pain to actually use but regardless has basically three times as many chances as everyone else to do well against characters better than him. Ike is definitely as low as I'd ever take him; I really didn't want Ike that low so much as everyone else seemed to want to move up around him...

Lucario basically beats everyone below him and loses to most of the characters above him (slightly in most cases but still loses). Lucario is all around pretty slow, and the aura thing ends up limiting him just as much as it helps him. You know, he can't combo when he's really hurt or kill when he's unhurt; that means he has a lot of trouble after getting the first kill of building up a lead, and it means if he dies first that instead of being like most characters who get a full set of fresh kill moves to make it easier to make things even his kill moves get weakened. I know aura has a lot of positive stuff too, but I don't think Lucario's unique mechanics overall really give him a leg up on anyone is what I'm saying. Also, Lucario's projectile really isn't that good (energy, slow moving, charge time). It's not bad, but it's not on the level of things like Pikmin Toss, Falco/Wolf Blasters, the Robo Laser/Gyro combo, grenades, Pit's lovely defining move, or Toon Link's wall of projectiles. I might even argue that it's worse than things like Ice Blocks... The more I look at Lucario, the more I'm back to thinking he's doomed to hang around the middle of the cast. He has a lot of positives, but he has nothing that's really amazing and seems to have a bit of a "better as an abstract character than a character in the game with the other characters" problem. Lucario was one of the 20 characters I assumed to be in the top 20, and when I really looked at him matchup up with the other 19, it just didn't seem to work for him to be actually better than the others (he was pretty close to Ice Climbers and Pit overall though).

Anyway, this whole list pivots on what were, even if I did a lot of research on the character boards, my subjective opinions on specific matchups and then a bunch of calculation (fun fact: if I didn't add a last step that ended up moving ZSS up, Snake would have been #11). I don't really want to post what I have because it's not only unreadable but also not the sort of thing you really want to slip out. I just figured I'd post that list because it ended up being pretty interesting. Subtle errors in matchups could lead to big changes in the final list, and the fact that I'm starting with the assumption that the current metagame is just completely wrong about a few characters makes perfection in matchup analysis even more of a pipe dream.

A last note, brawl is hard to really take too far when thinking characters are too low. Let me put it this way. I only consider the bottom 4 actually terrible characters. Even the second lowest tier I would only call mediocre. The characters in middle tier (which, unlike other tier lists, is actually the middle of the tier list on this one) are all characters I would call legitimately good. The top 15 ended up being the most significant group just because they all had a purpose even if everyone played to win with character choice which is actually fantastic (phanna chart analysis of melee makes the top 15 in brawl analagous to the top 5 in melee...).
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aa i would love to see your fe tier lists
^_^
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Quote:
 
With Bowser's placement and low tiers in general, I did it pretty simply. I grouped their matchups as "win/even/lose/lose very badly". Bowser loses very badly to King Dedede, he doesn't actually have any positive matchups among the top 15, and he doesn't even have many that are actually even. Guys like Falco, Snake, Olimar, R.O.B., and Toon Link have way too much fun spamming him out, the fortress doesn't really protect him from Meta Knight/Marth/Mr. Game & Watch pressure because of range, and even his seemingly big deal against Wario with the release grabs has a sour note as Wario has a nasty chaingrab on Bowser too. Then, like you said, he runs into big trouble with Kirby, and he happens to lose to Ness, Zero Suit Samus, or Diddy Kong as well. That's all of them... I'm pretty sure I ended up saying Bowser was even with Wario because it's just whoever grabs first really, and somewhere I think I claimed he was even with someone else when I worked this out, but really, this isn't better than Sonic or anyone else on that tier. No one in low (as opposed to lower) has a matchup as bad as Bowser vs King Dedede, and they all have several legitimately even matchups among the best characters.

I'm only replying to the Bowser section because he's the only character I know enough about. I'm just going to go ahead and list the matchups for the top 15 for Bowser first:

Meta Knight - 45-55
Marth - 40-60 (I would honestly call this 45-55 as well from my experience, really)
Olimar - No idea ?_?
Snake - 40-60
Falco - 45-55
G&W - 40-60
Toon Link - 40-60
ZSS - 40-60
Kirby - 30-70 (I think it's 35-65 personally)
Wario - 45-55
Ness - 40-60
Diddy Kong - 35-65 (as long as you ban Final Destination you will be fine for the most part)
ROB - 40-60
Dedede - 20-80 (if the infinite is banned like it has been in some tournaments, it's more of a 40-60 matchup)
Pikachu - not sure

Pikachu and Olimar are definitely at the advantage, but I'm not sure how much of an advantage because it's honestly a really really rare matchup :s

That listing does look bad on paper since it's filled with disadvantages, but when compared to most characters that aren't in the top 15, Bowser actually does well against them. The fact that he has a neutral matchup against MK (Bowser and Snake are probably the best characters in the game against MK) while still having decent matchups against the rest of the top tiers is a big deal.

Let's compare these matchups to the matchups of the characters above Bowser: Luigi, Lucas, Ike, and Pokemon Trainer. Lucas' matchup thread lists a 35-65 disadvantage against MK, a 30-70 disadvantage against Marth, and a 20-80 (!!!) matchup against G&W. The only top tier characters Lucas doesn't lose against are Falco/Pikachu/Wario (who are listed as 50-50 matchups) and Dedede (who is listed as 55-45 Lucas' advantage). The rest of the matchups against the top tiers are, unless I missed something, 40-60 disadvantages.

I have no idea what Ike's matchups are because their matchup thread doesn't give ratios. Talk to Light :x I checked the MK matchup thread quickly which said he has a 70-30 advantage over Ike, but I really don't think that matchup is that bad. I have no idea how Ike does against the top tiers, and I don't want to check 15 matchup threads that might not have even discussed Ike yet. I would assume Ike does fairly bad against MK, Olimar, and Falco, but that's just a guess

Luigi's matchup thread also doesn't have matchup ratios, but they still give numbers (as in a difficulty rating out of 10). I'm not sure what those numbers mean exactly, but I know that Marth and Falco were given a 7/10 difficulty rating, while G&W was given a 9/10 rating and MK was given a 9.5/10 rating. They haven't discussed the matchup against Dedede yet, but I'm almost positive that matchup is also very bad for Luigi. The only characters that Luigi has decent matchups against so far are Pikachu (5/10) and Wario (3/10).

Pokemon Trainer is a hard character to determine matchups for, only because he's three characters in one. A character could have a 95-5 matchup on one of the Pokemon, but it could still be an even matchup if the other two Pokemon have a 50-50 or better matchup. With that being said, a lot of the top tier characters have solid advantages on all three Pokemon. MK has a 70-30 (at least) advantage on Ivysaur while still having a 65-35 advantage on Squirtle and a 60-40 advantage on Charizard. G&W has a solid 60-40 advantage on all three Pokemon. Marth has a 70-30 advantage on Squirtle while still having 60-40 advantages on Ivysaur and Charizard. For the most part, Pokemon Trainer can handle a character with a solid advantage on one Pokemon, but as soon as he fights a character with advantages on two Pokemon, Pokemon Trainer is pretty much screwed.

Bowser may not have any advantages against the top tiers, but
Quote:
 
No one in low (as opposed to lower) has a matchup as bad as Bowser vs King Dedede, and they all have several legitimately even matchups among the best characters
is just plain wrong. Having a majority of slight disadvantages and one or two big disadvantages is much better than having one or two slight advantages and several big disadvantages.

Quick EDIT: I don't have anything to say about the rest of your post because I pretty much agree with most of it.
Edited by Phiddlesticks, Jan 12 2009, 09:34 PM.
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Lucas is really underrated by the community, just not as much as his "brother" (ancestor?) Ness. Haha, Mr. Game & Watch vs Lucas isn't 80-20; I think it's more like 65-35 and maybe even 60-40 if you're optimistic about Lucas (more likely 60-40 than 70-30). Lucas does have too many moves that are pretty unreasonable to actually hit with, but he is strong, not slow, and has one of the best recoveries in the game (no joke). You can probably moderate all of those matchup numbers on his board... Those positives and evens are big by the way.

For the record, I consider 55-45 an advantage; it's pretty much the magnitude of the advantages/disadvantages among the best characters most of the time...

I'm pretty sure Ike is close to even though more likely to be losing than winning against Mr. Game & Watch and Marth. Ike gets good grab release stuff on Wario, and Ike's amazing spacing seems like it should probably help against Zero Suit Samus in theory though that is just theory seriously.

Luigi players are kinda weird (like Luigi...). It's hard to get a good read on just how good he is, but I know at least the Diddy Kong players express that Luigi is a massive pain and has an advantage on them. I'm pretty sure Luigi is at least even if not positive on R.O.B. as well, and I think he had some other good ones too. King Dedede is pretty awful for him, but it's comparatively less bad than it is for Bowser. I know from experience that Mr. Game & Watch destroys him, and I doubt he has much to cope with the other two super range guys (Meta Knight and Marth), but otherwise he seems pretty good.

Going through the PT is a pain, but I'm pretty sure his three Pokemon system overall nets him neutrality at least against several of those better characters. You mostly listed the ones where it didn't... The community definitely really underrates this guy though.

Anyway, the main thing is that I really disagree with your statement about how having slight disadvantages everywhere is better than having more extreme disadvantages and advantages. It actually kinda makes sense for high tiers, but we are talking about low tiers here... The baseline expectation with any low tier is not being used, and we look for some reason to use them with the ones with more compelling reason being better. Having positive matchups is the best thing they can have! Even without positives, having neutral matchups is still a huge factor here because that means, when facing a top tier character against whom you are neutral, you are effectively using a top tier yourself. The worst case with the terrible matchups is "don't let them counterpick on you" but at least that character is still useful for counterpicking while if they have negatives across the board it's more like "don't use that character".

I am pretty sure Bowser v Olimar is awful for Bowser by the way. Bowser is one of the easiest characters to spam out, and Olimar is way too good at doing that (and Olimar has a good jump break so it's not like grabbing him is instant win for you...). I'm a bit skeptical of your Falco and Toon Link matchups as well; I know Bowser has good close range games on them, but what is Bowser's answer to them just running the entire match and camping with spam (obviously their best strategy against Bowser)? Bowser is so big and slow; it seems like it should be really hard for him to get past that sort of thing. I can be honest that I'm not a Bowser expert, but what I've seen of him suggests that he's pretty good when he controls the pace of the match and pretty bad when he doesn't but that he's ultimately doomed because he is bad at controlling the pace of the match due to his size and speed and having to rely too much on the Whirling Fortress which is decent but let's just say is no Dolphin Slash to make up for his other moves not really helping him defensively. Characters with good projectile games make even good approaching characters slow it down and play by their rules; I just have a hard time seeing how Bowser copes with that.

A final for the record, his matchup against Meta Knight isn't second best to Snake. I'm almost entirely certain that Falco, Olimar, Diddy Kong, Zero Suit Samus, and Yoshi all have better MK matchups than Bowser. 45-55 is more like Meta Knight's matchup with Mr. Game & Watch, and a bunch of characters are in that boat. It's not a bad boat to be in really, but I'm not sure it's a big positive for Bowser...
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Anyway, the main thing is that I really disagree with your statement about how having slight disadvantages everywhere is better than having more extreme disadvantages and advantages. It actually kinda makes sense for high tiers, but we are talking about low tiers here... The baseline expectation with any low tier is not being used, and we look for some reason to use them with the ones with more compelling reason being better. Having positive matchups is the best thing they can have! Even without positives, having neutral matchups is still a huge factor here because that means, when facing a top tier character against whom you are neutral, you are effectively using a top tier yourself. The worst case with the terrible matchups is "don't let them counterpick on you" but at least that character is still useful for counterpicking while if they have negatives across the board it's more like "don't use that character".

The characters that have one or two good matchups against the top tiers and then several horrible matchups are not better characters than those such as Bowser overall. Yes, the fact that they have that one good matchup gives them a reason to be used in a tournament, but that character will only be used as a situational counterpick against a certain character. For example, I'm sure there are people out there who will use Luigi against a Wario player, because that's one of Luigi's few good matchups in the top tiers. Will those people use Luigi only in a tournament? No. That's because as a stand-alone character, Luigi will lose to any Meta Knight, Marth, G&W, or Dedede he plays unless the Luigi player is significantly more skilled. This is extremely bad considering these are probably four of the most popular characters being played at tournaments currently. On that note, I'm not sure how Luigi does against Dedede if the infinite chain grab is banned.

As a stand-alone character, Bowser will perform much better in tournaments than characters like Luigi and Lucas because most of his matchups are only slight disadvantages or neutral. Characters like Luigi and Lucas may perform better against certain top tier characters, but that doesn't make them more tournament viable than Bowser overall. And, like you said, having neutral matchups is also a huge factor here, and Bowser has the most important neutral matchup of all, which is against Meta Knight.

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I am pretty sure Bowser v Olimar is awful for Bowser by the way. Bowser is one of the easiest characters to spam out, and Olimar is way too good at doing that (and Olimar has a good jump break so it's not like grabbing him is instant win for you...). I'm a bit skeptical of your Falco and Toon Link matchups as well; I know Bowser has good close range games on them, but what is Bowser's answer to them just running the entire match and camping with spam (obviously their best strategy against Bowser)? Bowser is so big and slow; it seems like it should be really hard for him to get past that sort of thing. I can be honest that I'm not a Bowser expert, but what I've seen of him suggests that he's pretty good when he controls the pace of the match and pretty bad when he doesn't but that he's ultimately doomed because he is bad at controlling the pace of the match due to his size and speed and having to rely too much on the Whirling Fortress which is decent but let's just say is no Dolphin Slash to make up for his other moves not really helping him defensively. Characters with good projectile games make even good approaching characters slow it down and play by their rules; I just have a hard time seeing how Bowser copes with that.

The answer to characters with good projectiles and solid camping games is learning how to powershield and not playing on Final Destination. On Final Destination, Falco and Toon Link and Olimar and Diddy definitely have a bigger advantage against Bowser. On that note, it's also said that Diddy has the advantage on Meta Knight on Final Destination, but that doesn't make Diddy a Meta Knight counter because the MK player can just ban Final Destination. On other stages though, Bowser definitely does perform better against those characters.

Also, Fortress is a much better move than Dolphin Slash. Not only does Fortress kill better than Dolphin Slash when fresh (it kills lighter characters at around 110-120%, and can be kept fresh by using jabs and ftilt out of shield as substitutes), but it also gives Bowser the opportunity to get away from his opponent if he whiffs it, while Marth is much more vulnerable in his free-fall state.

One of the big reasons Bowser doesn't do that bad against characters like Falco and Toon Link is because both of those characters generally don't kill Bowser until 150%+, whereas Bowser kills both of them much earlier. Against Falco, Bowser can chain grab him to the edge of the stage where he can either fair or klaw Falco upon air release or dtilt Falco on ground release. This, as well as the fact that Bowser's firebreath completely shuts down Falco's attempts to illusion to the edge, make it very hard for Falco to live to high percents. Bowser can also use fortress to escape Falco's chain grab. Against Toon Link, Bowser doesn't have as much in terms of grab release options, but he can still hit Toon Link with a fair from an air release and a dtilt, klaw or another grab on a ground release. Bowser can also hit both Falco and Toon Link with a Bowser bomb from a ground release, and although that can be avoided if you DI the first hit correctly or air dodge on time, it's a handy surprise KO move that can kill extremely early as long as you don't use it too often.

I can only see Olimar being a harder matchup than Toon Link because his non-purple pikmin can't be powershielded and because he can actually KO Bowser at reasonable percentages. Diddy is a bad matchup in general just because whoever controls bananas controls the match, and Bowser is probably the worst character in the game at using items effectively with his laggy dash attack and throw animations. Even though Diddy can't kill Bowser until high percents, he at least has an easier time comboing into things like dsmash by using his bananas. Kirby has pretty ridiculous chain throws on Bowser, and, like Olimar, is a light character who can actually KO well. The only reason Dedede is such a bad matchup is because of his infinite chain grab; without it, the matchup is very winnable. Bowser can attempt to punish Dedede's shield grab attempts by using sh klaws instead of aerials, timely use of upb, and spacing firebreath. It's certainly not in Bowser's favour, but it's definitely not that bad. For the record, I'm just explaining why these matchups are worse for Bowser than those against characters like Falco and Toon Link.

I'll address the last paragraph quickly later on tonight, but I'm running short on time right now and need to get going (I'm sorry).
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BBM
Jan 9 2009, 07:53 PM
shuckle14
Jan 9 2009, 04:44 PM
Tails chao
Jan 8 2009, 07:29 PM
mario is so low because he's shit.

I love g&w and he's clearly top tier (ignoring the bs tiers with one char only) but I do also really disagree with aa on him being #1 or tied #1.

g&w>diddy though. diddy's great and all but g&w has so much more (including a recovery that doesn't suck balls)
You shut your filthy little whore mouth >:(
or my big black penis will shut it for you
yes plz
(21:51:38) meddle: jolteon beats sandslash
(21:51:45) meddle: but both beat shuckle

^the truth

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bbm you should change your name to bbp :D
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what are sand niggas opinions of real niggas?
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Dec 6 2008, 11:34 PM
I'm going to read this and comment again, now that I've been playing the game consistently for many months and I have more experience.
I came in here to post this.

I think I'm better off just not saying anything, considering all the text on page 2 that I haven't read yet.
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All you need to know is that Diddy > G&W
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Jan 22 2009, 09:43 PM
what are sand niggas opinions of real niggas?
my opinion is the same as a white person's lolol (ignoring the fact that I am 50/50 stfu)

p.s. shuckle u suk g&w is best!!1
(21:51:38) meddle: jolteon beats sandslash
(21:51:45) meddle: but both beat shuckle

^the truth

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Jan 23 2009, 10:59 PM
All you need to know is that Diddy > G&W
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(21:51:38) meddle: jolteon beats sandslash
(21:51:45) meddle: but both beat shuckle

^the truth

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You guys suck :(
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diddy does
(21:51:38) meddle: jolteon beats sandslash
(21:51:45) meddle: but both beat shuckle

^the truth

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