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A SSBB tier list; Just here so I can link to it elsewhere
Topic Started: Sep 27 2008, 06:15 PM (2,880 Views)
shuckle14
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Bananated
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no u/g&w
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+Jolteon
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yeah right dude!!
(21:51:38) meddle: jolteon beats sandslash
(21:51:45) meddle: but both beat shuckle

^the truth

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+BBM
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niggers
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+Jolteon
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u r
(21:51:38) meddle: jolteon beats sandslash
(21:51:45) meddle: but both beat shuckle

^the truth

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+Crunk Juice
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...
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Tangela
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This is the same calculated list except giving Peach and Zelda/Sheik a fair shot. Note that it does not represent any concrete opinions but is just a more abstract thing drawn from my views on matchups run through an algorithm. Don't take it too seriously, but I think it's interesting enough. Interestingly, adding Peach made Lucario barely fit into the "viable" catagory (she easily qualified) which moved him up quite a few places, but otherwise the only true change was Snake gaining a position on Olimar. Wario dropped several places, but that was just me correcting a math error in the older list. That same math error correction made it pretty hard for me to refrain from moving Ness up a tier; his scores were much closer to those above him than to those below him. I also added a note for what place the mid tier characters would slide into if you just assumed they were viable (Wolf/DK are not considered viable because of the King Dedede matchup while the others are strictly outclassed by someone above them matchup wise). For the most part, the mid tier would just be sliding in above Lucario and Pikachu who were blessed with a lucky combination of matchups, but Wolf would pass up quite a few characters. Poor Wolf... Also, as a last note, I flipped my opinion on Samus and Mario and reversed their positions; the bottom tier was handled with very little care so it shouldn't matter too much (I'm convinced those four are far below everyone else).

Lastly, I want to stress again that this game is VERY balanced. I consider the top 22 all legitimately good characters at this point, and I'd consider the next four after them decently solid. The next tier is mediocre but not awful at all, and only the bottom four are characters I would call legitimately bad. I put in comparisons to melee's balance next to each tier to give you a feel for just how good I think that tier is as a whole. The way things calculated out kinda support this sort of sweeping endorsement of the balance of brawl too; 17 characters with independently useful matchups is just nuts.

Top tier (Melee equivalent: Fox)

1. Meta Knight
2. Marth
3. Snake
4. Olimar
5. Falco

Upper Tier (Melee equivalent: Peach)

6. Mr. Game & Watch
7. Toon Link
8. Zero Suit Samus
9. Kirby
10. Ness

High Tier (Melee equivalent: Ice Climbers)

11. Diddy Kong
12. R.O.B.
13. Peach (virtual tie with R.O.B.; he won on a tiebreaker)
14. Wario
15. King Dedede
16. Lucario
17. Pikachu

Mid Tier (Melee equivalent: Ganondorf)

18. Wolf (12)
19. Zelda/Sheik (16)
20. Donkey Kong (16)
21. Pit (16)
22. Ice Climbers (16)

Low Tier (Melee equivalent: Luigi)

23. Luigi
24. Lucas
24. Pokemon Trainer
26. Ike

Lower Tier (Melee equivalent: Pikachu)

27. Fox
28. Yoshi
29. Bowser
29. Sonic
31. Link
32. Jigglypuff

Bottom (Melee equivalent: Mr. Game & Watch)

33. Ganondorf
33. Samus
35. Captain Falcon
35. Mario

Also, don't go reposting this in certain chats; thanks to Phiddlesticks I now have to make a fool of Steeler the next time I meet him (and I very much intend to in the form of calling him out on a money match and then defeating him decisively). Either way, this is mostly posted for my own reference; I like maintaining a list like this even if I really don't want to make it public.
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+Jolteon
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I never knew MMs were the point of making a tier list. :x
(21:51:38) meddle: jolteon beats sandslash
(21:51:45) meddle: but both beat shuckle

^the truth

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No, it's more like Steeler made commentary after seeing it that requires me to defeat him in a money match, preferably in humiliating fashion.
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You're doing it wrong.
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+Phiddlesticks
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I HAD NO IDEA STEELER HAD PLAYED YOU IRL AND ONLY POSTED A LINK TO THE LIST BECAUSE BOWSER WAS AND STILL IS TOO LOW
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Bowser sucks.
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+Jolteon
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so you're MMing him to prove your list?

does not compute.

bowser>ike imo, ike does have a rather nice sword but has basically no safe options, even his jab. :x
(21:51:38) meddle: jolteon beats sandslash
(21:51:45) meddle: but both beat shuckle

^the truth

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ike does have a rather nice sword
hmm...
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+Jolteon
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someone got it!11
(21:51:38) meddle: jolteon beats sandslash
(21:51:45) meddle: but both beat shuckle

^the truth

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Ike is pretty obviously better than Bowser mostly because range is just about the most important thing in this game, and Ike has the best range overall out of the entire cast. Ike is actually not that unsafe; his jab is only unsafe if you nail a very small SDI window, and he can make long range attacks with things like ftilt, nair, and fair just because they hit so far away from him that most characters can't move themselves over to Ike before Ike recovers. Ike's back aerial is also beastly and underrated just because it's tricky to hit with. Ike can even super armor to get out of some situations that Bowser has a nasty time dealing with. If you can find the videos of cataclysm 4, look up san. He shows how Ike should be played, and if anything I may be putting Ike a few slots too low.

Bowser is very slow and has very few safe things to use as well (Whirling Fortress has horrible range and does horrible damage after the initial hit). His grab release gimmicks are pretty impressive, and he has some good things, but I find it really hard to take him seriously on the same level I take Ike seriously. I mean, I can see he's way better than he was in melee, but that isn't particularly convincing of his overall quality given that he was essentially a joke character in melee.

It went this way. Phiddlesticks posts the list (I'm really not mad at you, by the way). Steeler comments that I suck (laughable because I beat him pretty handily when we played before), and now I have to humiliate him badly enough so it's clear that he's too bad to ever judge the skill of anyone on my level. I doubt I'm going to convince him to give up some of his silly views, but I have to settle on humiliating him in front of his crew and making him look bad (if he declines the money match, I intend to make him look as bad as I can). Steeler was pretty cool before so it's kinda a shame that I now have to do this.
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+Phiddlesticks
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I watched a lot of san's matches, and although he did a good job making it to the grand finals, he only knew how to play as Ike one way. I think the main reason he made it to the grand finals was because a lot of the players had probably never played a competent Ike before.

If you look at the grand finals matches and compare them to the winner's semis (where san sent Owna into loser's bracket; maybe it was quarters I don't remember), san played the exact same style in both sets, while Owna learned how san was playing and adapted to it. If you don't remember, in their first set Owna unsuccessfully tried to gimp san with dair while san prevented edgeguarding with upair. Owna also had a hard time dealing with san's jab cancelling (which was almost always jab1 -> jab1 -> jab2 -> attack if I remember right). In the second set, san was still using his same bag of tricks, while Owna learned from his mistakes and baited Ike's upair before going for the dair gimp, and SDI'd Ike's jab so he could shuttle loop from it. If san had just changed his game up in some way, he could have easily won the tournament. Not that he wasn't impressive placing second with only Ike. Regardless, I have also said that I thought Ike was better than Bowser overall, but just because Ike is better doesn't mean Bowser is bad ?_?

Also, I would trade in Ike's super armour (which comes out on like frame 19 for Aether doesn't it? I don't know about Eruption but if it's faster it's not by much) for a move with frame 1 invicibility that can be used out of shield any day. You can't even compare Ike's super armour moves to Bowser's fortress. Even when recovering Bowser's fortress is better than Aether (and Aether is better than Quick Draw in terms of recovering). I would seriously like to see an example where Ike's super armour gets him out of a situation that Bowser's upb wouldn't be able to get out of.

Bowser is only an unsafe character if you decide to go nuts with the C-Stick or Bowser Bomb or something. His koopa klaw, for example, is extremely safe when used from a short hop against a shielding opponent. If they stay shielded, they of course get grabbed. If they try to use an attack out of shield before you grab them, there is a good chance of getting grabbed anyways from the super armour. If they spot dodge, Bowser lands from the klaw with no landing lag and can use a ftilt, jab fortress, grab, or even another klaw or Bowser Bomb or something to punish the spot dodge. If your opponent rolls behind you, Bowser can just do the same thing except attack behind him. The only safe thing your opponent can do is attempt to roll away from Bowser, which can still be punished if that character has a bad roll, or using an upb with invincibility OoS. (and even then, if your upb timing isn't frame perfect so that you are invincible on the frame that klaw grabs, you could get grabbed anyways from super armour).

Bowser's Fire Breath is very safe if spaced right on certain characters (ie those who can't DI towards Bowser and use a quick powerful aerial or special). Most of the time, if your opponent DI's towards Bowser and attacks him, they will take enough damage for it to be a trade off. It's not the safest move, but it's extremely helpful in some matchups.

Bowser's jab and ftilt are both very safe. His jab, like Ike's, can be cancelled into a klaw, upb, ftilt, dtilt, Bowser Bomb, whatever. Obviously if the opponent knows how to SDI you are better off just using the jab combo. Even if you couldn't cancel the jab it would still be an extremely safe move just because of the amount of range it has relative to its speed. It comes out on frame 6 (which, although slow for a jab, is very fast compared to non-jabs) and has almost as much range as his ftilt. Speaking of his ftilt, it also has pretty ridiculous range. It outranges most non-sword/projectile/disjointed moves, as well as some disjointed moves. For example, it outranges almost all of Marth's and Meta Knight's moves (excluding their own ftilts, iirc).

I think I've praised fortress enough so I won't really talk about it again but it's of course another extremely safe move. Any hits of it other than like the first two should never hit an opponent.

What does Bowser's tier placement in melee have to do with anything? Yes, he was bad in melee, but that means nothing when looking at how good he is in Brawl.

"I mean, I can see G&W is way better than he was in melee, but that isn't particularly convincing of his overall quality given that he was essentially a joke character in melee."

"I mean, I can see Kirby is way better than he was in melee, but that isn't particularly convincing of his overall quality given that he was essentially a joke character in melee."

"I mean, I can see Ness is way better than he was in melee, but that isn't particularly convincing of his overall quality given that he was essentially a joke character in melee."

I mean, I can see Pikachu is way better than he was in melee, but that isn't particularly convincing of his overall quality given that he was essentially a joke character in melee."
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AGH TWINKS NO ONE FUCKING LIKES BOWSER STFU
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+Phiddlesticks
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BBM I don't really say this often, but uh, SHUT THE FUCK UP
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:-D
Edited by Crunk Juice, Feb 11 2009, 05:40 PM.
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Yeah, san lost because he wasn't adaptable. It was still a pretty impressive showing.

Bowser is bad not because he was worse in melee or is worse than Ike; those are just incidental statements. Bowser is bad because all around he's just a very mediocre character.

Bowser's ftilt isn't a safe move. It hits on frame 10 and has -24 on block. I think you overrate the range; I don't think it's better than, say, Donkey Kong's ftilt. It's obviously one of his better moves, but it's not really a safe option.

Bowser also has a pretty slow jab. It's not that slow in the grand scheme of moves, but hitting on frame 6 is pretty late for a jab. It's tied in speed with the Whirling Fortress for his fastest move at frame 6 actually; that kind of speed isn't a good start, and his jab doesn't really give him much in the way of practical safe options (are you going to approach with the jab?). Again, it's one of his better moves, but it's not anything amazing.

Whirling Fortress is obviously a big deal since it's frame 1 invincible, but it's easy to overrate. It has completely garbage range, and other than the initial hit it does almost no damage. It also leaves Bowser pretty open if he doesn't hit with it. Like, let's say I'm using my turtle on your shield, and then you fortress. You definitely don't hit with the initial hit, and odds are I can air control to avoid it in general and have a good chance of being able to punish or just turtle your shield again to reset. If you do manage to get over to me, you do something like 2% with the late hit on the fortress which is way too pathetic to really dissuade me from shield pressuring you. The fact that Whirling Fotress leaves Bowser in his helpless falling state means that it's way less useful than Eruption to escape trouble in any aerial situation (to answer a question). I'm not trying to say it's a bad move; it's obviously a good move, but let's keep it in perspective. It doesn't make Bowser the way Dolphin Slash makes Marth (or would make Marth if Marth weren't already incredible either way). I see it more in line with Wolf's Reflector. It's a solid move that does a lot to promote the user, but it's pretty far from making the character by itself.

The Flying Slam (Koopa Klaw is not a move in brawl) is one of Bowser's other good moves; it's an air grab, it's decently fast, and it does lots of damage. The main problem it has is that the area it hits over is an area already covered by most of Bowser's other good moves (fair, jab, ftilt, normal grab). Characters like Mr. Game & Watch really don't have trouble just attacking Bowser and not being hit in that example you gave, but yeah, that's going to be a big threat for some characters (Bowser's biggest ability to mount a threat?).

The thing is that I could list this much good stuff for Yoshi, Fox, etc. if I wanted to (I know Bowser has a few other good things that I didn't list; I don't feel like going through everything about Bowser). Of course, they have lots of bad stuff too, just like Bowser...

Fire Breath is seriously not a good move if the opponent is good at SDI. It tends to do very little damage and puts Bowser at a disadvantage. It's not completely useless, but it's a very limited move (probably about as good as Bowser Bomb which is also very limited).

Bowser's nair and dair are just horrible moves. In a game with this much focus on the air, having two horrible aerials is pretty bad. His back aerial is also really situational so that makes it even harder on Bowser; while his fair and uair are all around good, his overall set of standard aerials is one of the worst in the game (list characters worse off if you disagree; there are a few but not many).

All three of Bowser's smashes, his utilt, and his dtilt are really slow and unsafe to use. They aren't terrible or anything, but they're all moves that Bowser can only rely on if he predicts his opponent well or he is in the midst of punishing a mistake. That's a large number of move to be like that.

Bowser's dash attack is completely horrible to the point that there's not much of any reason to use it. It doesn't even let him have a useful DACUS or anything clever.

Bowser is HUGE. It's very easy to hit Bowser in general just because of his size. I think this sort of thing gets overlooked a bit more than it should be; he's probably over 5x the size of someone like Olimar which means he has five times more space he has to protect from being hit (and like all fighters, brawl is all about spacial control).

Bowser has one of the slowest jumps in the game at 8 frames which makes any approach involving short hops just a bit more sluggish than it would have been with just about anyone else (only Snake's is slower, and Snake isn't exactly jumping around much).

Bowser has little hope of recovering from a meteor due to how his recovery works.

Bowser has a hopelessly bad matchup with King Dedede due to that nasty chainthrow business.

Bowser has a pretty bad spotdodge and subpar rolls.

Bowser's pummel is pretty slow. Granted, if it were fast enough to force ground breaks, Bowser would be suddenly top tier.

Bowser has his good stuff that makes him pretty safely not bottom tier, but he seems like a pretty limited character with a lot of major weaknesses to me. I don't want to be the Bowser hater or anything; I actually think the characters on that tier are pretty playable (just overall mediocre). It's not even that I don't want to move Bowser up as I don't want to move anyone above him down (which means he can't move up). Maybe I should take this in a different direction; can you demonstrate how Yoshi and Fox are worse than Bowser (by discrediting Yoshi and Fox)? I could lay out their list of positives too, and I think it would end up being pretty comparable to Bowser's. Maybe that would be a more useful direction.
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+Phiddlesticks
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Dude DK's ftilt is like the second most ranged ftilt in the game behind Dedede's :x Of course Bowser's ftilt doesn't outrange DK's but it still has amazing range. It's probably in the top 5 in the 'ftilts with most range' category. Dedede, DK, Marth, Ike, Bowser? I dunno. Link/Snake/MK are all probably really close there too. Regardless, the move has really good range for a character without a sword.

You could probably approach with a jab if you were to run towards your opponent and (power)shield their attack.

In the fortress vs G&W bair example, unless the G&W player is spacing his bair pretty much perfectly, fortress will trade hits with it (as in, G&W will take the 11% from it and Bowser will take 2% from a single bair hit). If the G&W does space it well, it's only going to do like 2-4% anyways. In the air, fortress would be a much safer option off the stage. I also don't think Eruption would be a very practical thing to do to escape an air string, and I think a simple air dodge would be better than both eruption and fortress. I think fortress DOES make Bowser, and I don't think Dolphin Slash would make Marth if he wasn't already a top tier character. If you whiff the first hit of the fortress, you can at least get away and try to prevent being punished for it (or you could, like you said, go for that 2% hit!). Dolphin Slash makes Marth go into his helpless state every time he uses it. If you whiff Dolphin Slash, you are giving your opponent a free smash every time.

Koopa Klaw is the ideal move in several situations. If you are in the air but are close to the ground, klaw would be better to use so you don't have landing lag. If you are in the air but want to attack behind you, klaw is one of the safest options. Koopa Klaw also does more damage than his jab/fair/ftilt.

I don't think Bowser Bomb is that limited of a move. It's very useful for edgeguarding, can kill your opponent at like 60%, and can break shields. If you didn't know (you probably do know), Bowser Bomb edgehogs so long as you space it properly and don't hold down. It's useful against characters who are recovering near the ledge, either by using their upb or just by double jumping. For example, I have hit Colin's Ness with a Bowser Bomb a few times when he has double jumped near the ledge (and used fair to prevent edgeguarding attempts). I have also found it useful against characters like Sonic who don't have an auto-snapping recovery. As a kill move, it isn't extremely useful considering if you use it too much your opponent can just air dodge the second hit, but as long as you use it sparingly, getting a 60% kill is huge. This is especially huge considering Bowser easily lives up to double that percent. It's like 'gimping' your opponent off the top of the screen :) It also breaks shields but that isn't very useful (I've only done it online). It's still good to know and might come in handy against a person unfamiliar with Bowser, but whatever.

Nair is useful only because it has a hitbox all around Bowser. It's an ok "get off me" move. Other than that I agree it's definitely a bad move, but nowhere near his dair (which I would like to call the worst move in the game, but things like PK Freeze always ruin my plans). I really like Bowser's bair though; it's so helpful when edgeguarding because it hits at a horizontal angle. It can also be used from a full hop as a sort of 'anti-air' move against some characters. It can also be used from a klawhop, which is cool simply because nobody expects a laggy move like bair to do that.

I agree that Bowser has one of the worst aerial movesets in the game. If I could make a list, I would say Snake, Charizard? Snake not because his aerials are bad, but his slow jump and fast fall speed combined with his aerials' landing lag, and Charizard's are really only useful for edgeguarding (occasionally his bair can be useful on the stage). One thing though is that Bowser can use his klaw in the air, which makes it an 'aerial' that can't be shieldgrabbed (not that it's the only one of course).

I don't think the game has that much focus in the air. Look at Snake. He is the second best character in the game (potentially the best even), yet he rarely uses his aerial game. Bowser is a character who shouldn't be using his air game much at all. This is also adressing your point about Bowser's slow jump speed.

Bowser's dtilt and uptilt aren't "slow" at all. His dtilt is just as fast as his ftilt, but has less range and can be punished more on a whiff (although I'm pretty sure it's safer if used on a shielding opponent). It also makes up for the lack of range by being an excellent KO move from a ground grab release against a lot of characters. His uptilt is also a quick move and is a nice anti-air move. It also has pretty amazing range; for example, although it's hard to do, it goes through MK's dair if you space it properly. It is also a very solid vertical KO move and is honestly probably the move I KO with the most overall.

Bowser's matchup against Dedede is bad, yeah, but at least it's not as bad as DK's matchup against him :D Bowser's firebreath helps a lot in this matchup, as well as punishing Dedede camping in his shield with sh klaws.

Bowser's vertical recovery is poor, yes, but the good thing is his fortress at least has the most priority above him. You can also ideally save your upb so that you can use the invincibility frames to go through the spike (but obviously it won't be 'ideal' every time)

I don't think you have the right to comment on Bowser's bad rolls/spot dodge, you G&W main you :p

About Yoshi/Fox: I don't know much about Yoshi at all. I know his recovery is much better but still screwed over by a simple footstool, I know his only reliable kill moves are fsmash and upair, and I know he has the worst shield game in the game.

Fox has no reliable approach options, a lack of kill moves other that upsmash and maybe upair (is that still strong?), and I know if I ever faced a Fox in a tournament I could instantly win the set just by counterpicking Pikachu. If I am in a tournament that has, for some dumb reason, banned Pikachu, I could alternatively just counterpick Sheik, Ice Climbers, MK, ZSS, Luigi, Kirby, or G&W (the last four would only happen if Sheik/ICs/MK were banned along with Pikachu though). Fox is bad because he not only has one unwinnable matchup, but has SEVERAL unwinnable matchups, while still having other bad matchups in the 35-65 range. His recovery is easily edgeguarded, his dair is extremely overrated, he has a good pivot boost grab but no good throws, and he is one of the lightest characters in the game (only heavier than puffball characters and Squirtle I think). He also has a very bad edgeguarding game.

EDIT: wow I still have this taunt weezing banner lol
Edited by Phiddlesticks, Feb 12 2009, 09:27 AM.
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so i herd bowzer wuz gey
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so i herd both chars were mediocre/shit.
Edited by Jolteon, Feb 14 2009, 03:28 PM.
(21:51:38) meddle: jolteon beats sandslash
(21:51:45) meddle: but both beat shuckle

^the truth

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ssbb is boring :|

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Well, I was rather bored and decided to make a post here after reading about Ike and the safeness of his moves. It's not that I particularly love to talk about this stuff, it's just that I think I should say something productive instead of "Hello!".

Anyways, Ike's safest move by far is his forward aerial. It full hop autocancels (meaning it has very minimal landing lag after a full hop) and it can use IASA frames to chop off an entire eight frames of landing lag after a short hop, making it effectively 21 frames of landing lag where an action can take place on frame 22, which is the first turn the shield can come out on.

Only Olimar, pretty much unanimously voted Ike's worst match at 70:30 (The rest are better than that, though Falco and Dedede are still hard 65:35s), can shieldgrab it or do anything about it due to the length of his huge grab. And even then: He can only grab if it's a white or blue Pikmin he is holding. Nobody else (Except I hear Sheik with DACUS, and we know how easy THAT is to perform!) can get Ike before he is safe. The move takes a toll on shields after a few uses actually, to be honest. Shields have 50 HP and take damage equal to the move's damage output times .7. So the shield should cave in after about 5 Fair hits. Don't quote me on this though, I'll dig up the post eventually where shields in Brawl were described.

Bair short hop autocancels, so it's a surprisingly safe move as well, though I can't justify it with frame data. Nair has 13 frames of landing lag, with Ike being able to perform an action on frame 14, so unless they have a grab long enough or fast enough (or an OoS move with enough range and fast enough), they can't get Ike doing that either.

Jab 3 is definitely not safe on block, but the first two might be, I'm not 100% sure. Ike can just turn around and run or jabgrab if he hits a shield, obviously.

Speaking of grabs, and I'm only mentioning this because we had a discussion a while ago in Shoddy about how nothing Ike has from a grab is forced, Ike has (on most characters) a Bthrow to Dash Attack combo that starts around 20%, on the big ones it starts at 0%. This is due to a very impressive amount of IASA frames on that Bthrow. 6+8% is pretty impressive, considering that only King Dedede and Ganon have throws that powerful and only a few select characters can combo off a throw (none of which can work at the percents this does either).

On a final note, Bthrow can chaingrab Bowser until 45% according to testing that Kirk and I did. At this point, Ike can pummel, Back Throw and Dash Attack for what is effectively a 60% combo. The CG requires very strict timing, but hey, the more you know :P

As for your tier list itself based on match-ups AA, I just want to say a few things. Luigi and Lucas are pretty much established to have terrible match-ups, much worse than Ike. Pokemon Trainer's members each have terrible match-ups, but it evens out as at least one of the other guys seems to be positive. However, sadly, this ends with pretty much all of his match-ups being slightly in his disadvantage. Taking a look at http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188314 reveals that the only guys they claim an advantage on (so far) are Ness and Link. I don't know about you, but I certainly wouldn't rank Ness and Link as matches that matter at all (And I don't even think either of those two boards agree with the fact that they have a disadvantage!).

That alone would be a pretty solid reason to put Ike at the top of your low tier, but wait, there's more! I shall argue that Pit, Donkey Kong and the Ice Climbers all deserve to be below Ike, with Ike being at least with on par with Zelda / Sheik and Wolf at the top of Mid Tier.

First Pit: He's a character whose worst match-ups (Hard counters, IIRC) are Meta Knight and Mr. Game and Watch. I think that says enough. Then you have Marth as another 35-65 match and it's just not good.

Ice Climbers have a boatload of good matches, but, according to their topic, they have 4 (!!!) hard counters (30-70 matches) in R.O.B, Pikachu, Meta Knight and Snake.

And finally Donkey Kong. Where he does better than Ike in, it's always by a very minimal amount of +.5/10 or so, but when he does worse, he generally does MUCH worse, though it's even in most other places. For example, Ike loses to Dedede - Donkey Kong has a 10-90 match against him. Ike beats the Ice Climbers (Going by their topic!) - Donkey Kong gets demolished by them. Ike goes even with (more or less) Wario; can't say the same for DK and the 0 to 110 chaingrab.

This is a pretty lame way to say hi, but I'm glad to see you AA.

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+Jolteon
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I don't get how you can call anything you need to full-hop "safe".
(21:51:38) meddle: jolteon beats sandslash
(21:51:45) meddle: but both beat shuckle

^the truth

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shuckle14
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Bananated
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VINDICTATION/spam
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shuckle14
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METAKNIGHT'S BEEN BANNED :o

This would be like Smogon banning salamence in gen 4

oh wait
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