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home ground advantage
Topic Started: Mar 31 2009, 08:51 PM (165 Views)
Jarman Magic
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Since we have 14 league (home and away) matches and each team will play every other team in their division twice (once at home and once away) the home team will have a 1 goal home ground advantage which will be added to their score.

It's not a huge amount but will really increase the value of an away win

This will only be for the league matches and will not be implemented in AFLPL Cup or finals matches.


We are also discussing how we can make teams who are promoted more competitive in div 1 the following season and significant player exchanges may be made between the promoted & demoted teams. Obviously, teams being promoted will still be likely to be demoted again the following year and vice-versa but they need to be competitive.

If you are demoted you can expect to lose a significant number of players from your starting 18 and will get starting 18 players from the promoted clubs in return. You will still be clear favourites to get re-promoted again the following year and would obviously get the same player exchange in your favour if you are promoted again.

We are just trying to find a fair balance for the exchange. But if you want to keep your players then trade hard and stay in div one!! ;)
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reignblack
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Paddy Ryder
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Wait to see how it pans out before making any decisions imo.

Not a fan of any system that allows others to make decisions on my squad.

Not that I expect the Slappers to get promoted this year anyhow :D
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Shabby
Aisake O'hAiplin
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Yeah agree with RB. If us div 2 teams had known such an advantage would occur from getting promoted, we (the ones who drafted longer term) probably would have drafted for the shorter term instead, at least to an extent. Its not exactly something you can introduce now as it would have affected draft strategy in a major way.

You might find in the early years of the comp (assuming it ends up being long term) that the promoted teams end up getting demoted straight away, but over time this will sort itself out with the draft advantages the div 2 teams get and the fact that div 2 teams would have a lower average age than div 1 teams, so have more upside (even the teams who drafted shorter term have more youth than div 1 sides). The gap between the best of div 1 and worst of div 2 will lessen over time, naturally.

I like the home ground advantage rule though.
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rocklovelive
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Gary Ablett
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Yes to the home ground advantage. Good idea.

No to any squad changes or benefits for promoted teams. It should be up to the coach to make sure they stay in division 1 if they're promoted.
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dtm 06
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Ok I understand this point of view but there are a few things to consider.

1. rb, you're 100% right. No decision will be made til later on in the season and it will certainly be opened upto you guys beore we even think of implementing it.

2. shabby that's the view of me JM, and D2T too. We just want to give the promoted coaches over the next few years a sniff of hope. And that is a good point about drafting differently that I for one hadn't even considered and will certainly be taken into account.

3. back to rb again, you will still have quite a lot of control over your squad with the ability to make some players immune from the process.

4. rll, I understand what you're saying but there has been bugger all trading action going on here due to such big drafts. I mean you're one of the most persistant coaches i these games with regards to trades and even you've only got a couple done over the last 3 or so months. It will correct itself overtime but I just can't see there being a lot of opportunity for promoted teams to really trade in the next few years.

We've got a few different ideas for how this would work and they'll be up for criticism when we finalise them. They won't be implemented soon or without the majority backing of the coaches.

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Jarman Magic
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Just to put a bit of perspective on what promoted teams will be faced with.

Div 1 teams all got to pick 18 players before div 2 got any picks.
So we can say on average div 1 teams have 18 div 1 players and div 2 have 18 div 3 players.

When a team has been promoted they will be putting their 18 div 2 players againts 18 div 1 players and on the flip side demoted teams will have 18 div 1 players against 18 div 2 players from other sides.

I'll use an example of how a team's make-up will change if half of the 18 players are exchanged by teams being promoted and demoted (this is just an example and isn't exactly what has been discussed)...
Suddenly there's 9 div a players and 9 div 2 players in their teams.
The promoted teams are still up against 18 div 1 players every week and the demoted teams are still up against 18 div 2 players every week but at least they won't be comprehensively beaten every week and if they trade well they might even be an outside chance of keeping themselves in div 1.
They will still be hige favourites to be demoted again and the following year they would find themselves facing the same exchange of players so they wouldn't be going back to div 2 with any advantage over the other div 2 teams.

It can be justified by looking at it as the best players in the teams being demoted wanting to remain in div 1 rather than play in a div 2 team.

With regards to the tactics employed during the initial drafts the points raised are extramely valid. But remember teams who get promoted over the first few years are more likely than not going to be demoted again the following year even with the exchange. Any team that has drafted with a longer term vision will still build their team over the same period and still gain promotion at the same time they would have without the exchange and would then be in a stronger position to remain in div 1 than the teams that will be promoted next year.

All the player exchange is designed to do is stop the 2 teams promoted from being thrashed every week and stop the 2 demoted teams from thrashing every other team in the div 2 comp.



As dtm said, it's only being discussed and definitely won't be implemented without a strong backing from the coaches.

Over time the divisions will even out and it will be interesting to see who is the first club to manage to stay in div 1 after being promoted.
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Shabby
Aisake O'hAiplin
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The whole premise of this game is the promotion/relegation system. Every div 2 coach who put some thought into their team (all, seeing the quality of the coaches) knew going into the draft that to get from div 2 for div 1 was going to be pretty possible with the right strategy, but would then also then know that to stay in div 1 they would need to finish in the top 4 of the whole comp, seeing spots 5-6 get relegated. So these teams took on the challenge to try and get promoted and then stay up without help, or didn't really care if they were to get demoted again, for at least they gave it a shot, got div 2 bragging rights and could still develop for a tilt at re-promotion again the next year.

So each coach pretty much had 2 options from the start - go for quick promotion and back yourself through trading and natural list development to stay up, or not go for initial promotion and think that when the team develops more and eventually gets promoted, that it will be a chance of staying up due to natural improvement. Both strategies have equal merit and most coaches will be doing both at the same time but one will outweigh the other.

And what is so wrong with the promoted teams getting demoted again? All it will show is that they weren't good enough to stay up. If I was a promoted team I wouldn't be interested in the charity, I would want to see how my drafting has paid off, isn't that the whole point of the game?

If anything like this is to be introduced to help promoted teams it must surely be in the way of priority draft picks to at least keep everyone happy.

I don't mean to sound over the top in disagreement with a rule not even in place yet, I just want to squash this bollocks idea before it potentially comes in.
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rocklovelive
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Gary Ablett
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Shabby
Apr 2 2009, 06:08 PM
The whole premise of this game is the promotion/relegation system. Every div 2 coach who put some thought into their team (all, seeing the quality of the coaches) knew going into the draft that to get from div 2 for div 1 was going to be pretty possible with the right strategy, but would then also then know that to stay in div 1 they would need to finish in the top 4 of the whole comp, seeing spots 5-6 get relegated. So these teams took on the challenge to try and get promoted and then stay up without help, or didn't really care if they were to get demoted again, for at least they gave it a shot, got div 2 bragging rights and could still develop for a tilt at re-promotion again the next year.

So each coach pretty much had 2 options from the start - go for quick promotion and back yourself through trading and natural list development to stay up, or not go for initial promotion and think that when the team develops more and eventually gets promoted, that it will be a chance of staying up due to natural improvement. Both strategies have equal merit and most coaches will be doing both at the same time but one will outweigh the other.

And what is so wrong with the promoted teams getting demoted again? All it will show is that they weren't good enough to stay up. If I was a promoted team I wouldn't be interested in the charity, I would want to see how my drafting has paid off, isn't that the whole point of the game?

If anything like this is to be introduced to help promoted teams it must surely be in the way of priority draft picks to at least keep everyone happy.

I don't mean to sound over the top in disagreement with a rule not even in place yet, I just want to squash this bollocks idea before it potentially comes in.

Hate to say it, but I completely agree with everything Shabby just said.

This game is based on an EPL style promotion/demotion system. Well if you look at the history of the EPL, teams normally bounce back and forth between divisions, and I see no problem with this being a part of our game. Every now and then a team is strong enough to stay in the Premier League for more than just one season.

We don't want to gift teams division one spots permanently, we want (and need) them to earn it.
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dtm 06
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Yeah that's all well and good Shabby but what we are trying to ensure is even(ish) competition for the next few years.

As I said above, there has been so little trading that we feel that if this continues, we need to look at evening things up next year somehow. We can only see this being done by swapping some players between promoted and demoted clubs.

Draft picks may be part of a solution but realistically the chances of them helping a promoted team to stay up short term are small.

Say teams a and b get demoted gaining picks 9 and 10 in the 2009 draft and promoted the next year (which will happen unless there is something that evens up the comp) with picks 7 and 8 in the 2010 draft.
Clubs c and d get promoted in 2009 with picks 7 and 8, and demoted next season with 9 and 10. There is no overall net gain there for c and d so why strive for promotion? You are just making the gap between your team and a and b bigger whilst the other bottom teams get the big advantage of multiple top 6 draft picks.

Now whilst I'd never think that the coaches we have would throw games, (I mean its fantasy footy ffs), surely we have to ensure there is a real benefit of getting promoted? And by that I mean a benefit, not just the privilege of winning div 2.

And it's not "charity" either. This happens in most league structures. Most good players leave the demoted sides and head to the promoted ones. Some don't and this will be replicated in our suggestions.

And while it is to some degree, it's not entirely about what you or any other indivdual wants as an individual. It is about what is best for the game and what is best for the game is a good, even competition. I understand that you want to mould your own list and I completely unerstand that. I want to do that too and I'm sure the other 14 coaches are in te same boat and that is something we are really trying to make sure is encroached upon as little as posible with our idea.

The only reason this idea has got to the stage is that JM, D2T and myself all thought it was a good idea. I won't include myself here but the fact that JM and D2T think it's a good idea to me suggests there must be at least an element of it that is good.

Ok that's about all I can think of at the moment. I'd really ask you all to keep an open mind to it until you at least see the final product. I mean hell, we aren't even sure of the final specifics yet.
We will push for it but if there is strong disapproval after it's finalised we won't go ahead with it. And Shabby we will try and make it as unintrusive on the lists as possible.
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reignblack
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Paddy Ryder
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Agree with Shabby
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Shabby
Aisake O'hAiplin
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I'm surprised the lack of trading is such a concern at this stage, surely its hardly surprising with the draft being just completed, I would have predicted exactly what has happened. Peoples thoughts on players aren't going to change without them playing games, so if they are offered a player taken later in the draft for a player taken earlier, why would they do a deal? They took that player ahead of the overlooked player and nothing has changed to change that opinion. I'm sure trading will pick up for next season.

On my priority draft picks idea, it would basically be promoted teams say get a bonus 1st round pick or 2, the idea being that they would trade these picks for immediate success. You could even make it that it is compulsory that they be traded or even compulsory that they be traded to the demoted teams, not sure if that would work though. Not that I am a fan of any bonus for promoted teams, its just a less drastic idea than the one discussed.
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Jarman Magic
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maybe it's not a bad idea for teams that are being promoted to get a priority pick or 2 as reward. Would have to be second round though, the bottom teams deserve 1st round picks more.

Currently the draft will be done like this...
Div 2 picks 1-8
Div 2 picks 9-16
Div 1 picks 17-24
Div 2 picks 25-32
Div 1 picks 33-40...

Maybe it could be something like this...
Div 2 picks 1-8
Promotion picks 9 (2nd place),10 (1st place)
Div 2 picks 11-18
Promotion picks 19,20
Div 1 picks 21-28
Div 2 picks 29-36
Div 1 picks 37-44...

but this is only available for teams that started in div 2.

We'd need to make sure that teams don't keep getting these priority rewards everytime they're promoted in the future though so maybe it can be strustured like this...
1st time promoted = pick 9,19 (or 10,20)
2nd time promoted = pick 9 (or 10) only
3rd time promoted = pick 19 (or 20) only
4th time promoted (and subsequent) = no extra picks

This would be available for ALL original div 2 teams when they become eligible for these bonus picks

Does this sound ok or still better off without the extra picks?
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