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Professor Sykes.
Topic Started: Oct 9 2013, 05:03 AM (607 Views)
keilder
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I wondered when it would surface. I never held out any hope at all on this. But just in that I’ve caught.

What I find interesting is the choice of words “Yeti” and these

…for the most part the samples he has tracked down for analysis have turned out to be known species such as humans, bears or apes…

"An author who is both world-leader in his subject, and can also tell a good story, is as rare as the Yeti

Which, I could be wrong but tells me all samples from the US went nowhere. I’m going to play a hunch or take a punt that he’s leaning on Gianto existing earlier or later around Tibet, which explains a BBC programme, a book and whatever else spins off from this.

Source
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keilder
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Dang I was close.

"..Professor Sykes found that he had a 100 per cent match with a sample from an ancient polar bear jawbone found in Svalbard, Norway, that dates back at least 40,000 years - and probably around 120,000 years - a time when the polar bear and closely related brown bear were separating as different species."

Source
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Just Curious
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I'm not getting this...if the DNA was a 100% match for the ancient polar bear, how could it also be a hybrid polar and brown bear mix? It either is a 100% match, meaning it's the ancient polar bear, or it has to be close, but not quite 100% to be a hybrid.

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keilder
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I don't understand DNA apart from some basic reading, but that is a very good point.

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Just Curious
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Well, the math aside, I'm still really not getting why this is supposedly a big deal. I read the book referenced in that article - My Quest for the Yeti (or some such) by Reinhold Messner. In that book, Messner states that the hide that the Sherpas had was a Chemo Bear skin. It was used in some religious ritual, not unlike other cultures that use animal hides/heads. According to Messner, there was some linguistic confusion and the Chemo Bear was called a Yeti, which apparently means Chemo Bear in their dialect. It seems that's the hide that Sykes took a sample from for testing. The only surprise in all of it was that the other sample came from Bhutan, where the Chemo Bear was thought to no longer exist. Regardless, the Chemo Bear = Himalayan Brown Bear. So that's why I'm doubly confused as to what Sykes is trying to say is 'the discovery'.

Hopefully the rest of his findings will be less confusing.
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Stacy
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(Just wanted to mention that I'm in the middle of that same book! :) )
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Just Curious
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It was worth the read. Let me know when you finish it!
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GuyInIndiana
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I don't know what show this is, but apparently Sykes released a bunch of results, and as expected, it all turned out to be normal DNA. This is a show called "Bigfoot Files". The posted list I saw online said this:

Quote:
 

Washington state samples (including a sample from the Olympic project):
1. Cow
2. Cow
3. Black bear
4. White tail deer
5. Canine, wolf or dog (olympic project sample submitted by Derek Randles)
6. Canine, wolf or dog (Marcel Cagey)
7. NOT STATED

8. Arizona sample:
Racoon

9. Texas sample:
Horse

10. Michigan sample:
Porcupine

11. Sierra Kills
Smeja submitted hair samples of a black bear. No steak as such. Boot was tested for blood and NO blood could be found on the boot. He looked a broken man and was in tears after hearing the results.

12. Placer County, Northern Cal. (Dan shirley and Garland Fields)
Black bear

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keilder
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I've just watched both episodes from the below link (I'm unsure if you can view 4OD in the States without spoofing your IP)

Channel 4 on demand

What I picked up on was the comment "12 Best hairs from the most credible sources" OUCH, that's gott'a hurt.

And then Smeja, I think he was crying after he was told it was a bear and no blood was found on his boots, then asked point blank was he "Hoaxing" I did laugh at that bit, as his body langugage changed and he became unsettled, then splurted out "Why, what's in it for me" etc.

Next week its the Almast and a clip of that Russian (Igor something I believe) mimicking bigfoot speech was shown (Even those few seconds were funny as hell) I take it they'll go down the Zana route again.

Prof. Sykes did state however he got involved out of cursioty, and he was also a bit irritated that cryptozoologists et al said scientists wouldn't take this subject serious!
Edited by keilder, Oct 28 2013, 11:49 AM.
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keilder
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I haven't seen the final episode as it hasn't appeared yet on the above site, from what I've read earlier it appears Zana may of been an escaped African Slave.

What she must of went through, that poor woman.

EDIt: It appeared while I typed the above and 13 minutes in, one thing so far was stuck out to me! They said she was captured in 1870's most sources I read back then said 1850's ah whats a 20 year different and details, its TV?

I'll post most inconsistencies if I can be bothered and catch them.

16 minutes in this is possible...But Igor says he was there in 1971 and interviewed a person who recalled her when he was an 8 year old boy. Zana is supposed to have died 1890. Do the maths.

29.30 Igor is doing bigfoot speech, the interviewer has just pissed himself laughing silently while holding a stead fast composure while I fell on the floor with my legs in the air.

"What did that mean?"
best russian accent "That was telling off a youngster, yes"
"But you haven't seen the creature?"
"We have 10,000 encounters."
"I understand you could give me endless encounters, why has nobody taken a photograpgh?"
"They have paranormal abilities" :bg:

32.30 That big russian boxer turns up! and hes big... I don't even know if I'd f*ck with him unless I crept up between him and hit him with a steel bar then ran, like the girl I am. :D Shit 7 foot, 20 stone. Hell I knew a guy 5' 6" built like him that could pick two guys up...I was play fighting once and he moved his arm and knocked me into a wall...Okay I'd run.

38.00 into the samples 4 of the most promising samples of the last 40 years.

2 Horse
1 Cow
1 Glass fibre.

Other

Brown Bear, Igor Burstow (or whatever didn't like it and didn't believe it)

Now comes Zana, Khwit tooth and 6 sets of descendents. all had the same amount of Neatherthal DNA as we all have 2.8% (Igor had a prolapse at this stage)

The tooth and looking at the Mitochondria DNA was sub-saharan African. (South of the Sahara Black African)

So Sykes re checked the descendents and all had the same sub-saharan African DNA

What does this mean, from a laymans view point like me as I deal with Subnetting, binary, masks etc.,? it's not my field...But Zana was African.

My final thoughts, same as what I posted months back! any scientist from now on will refer everybody to Sykes study and never waste their time again. It now comes down to a body and not just one but a few.




Edited by keilder, Nov 3 2013, 06:45 PM.
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Pat
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I commented on this a week ago on our private members forum at OSR. I'm re-posting it here:

I find it interesting that a scientist is releasing his results concurrent with a multi-part TV series. Is this what all scientists do with other subject matter? I don't think so.

But then, this study was flawed from the outset, just like the Ketchum study was flawed.

If you're a scientist who is taking samples for a DNA study, then you SHOULD be taking them from other accredited scientists, or at least their assistants, who understand and use proper collection techniques, so that you know the samples are being harvested in a scientific manner using clean, sterilized equipment like tweezers, rubber gloves, etc., to prevent cross-contamination. You would know they've also been stored and shipped to you in the right manner to prevent contamination. Taking submissions from bigfooters (aka laypeople) around the world, is not an example of using scientific method. Who knows where or how they collected them or if the samples were degraded at any point during collection or storage or shipping?

I understand why Sykes asked for samples from laypeople around the world. So he could see if there were parallels among them, signifying an unknown DNA sequence. But he would have known that this is not accepted practice and that it represented unscientific methodology that would lead to widespread criticism from his peers. He would have known that this alone would put his findings into question, even if they turned out to actually produce something worthwhile.

(If he were truly committed to finding accurate and unquestionable results, he would have found some way to fund an actual scientific study, where trained people were sent into the field to collect samples themselves. But he didn't do that.)

And then there's the way he's releasing the findings. That also tells me that he never took the subject seriously. Usually, findings are released in a peer reviewed publication. Then the media picks it up and reports on it in various publications around the world. That's not being done in this case though, is it? Instead, Dr. Sykes signed on with a TV production company, and is using hyperbole to give out bits and parts of the story ... like cliffhangers in TV plots ... a little at a time to build suspense. Publishing the first part in the series on the date of the Patty film was VERY telling of his mindset. Furthermore, releasing it in concert with the TV show, then dangling the carrot for the next, and the next? Does this sound like unbiased scientific reporting to you? Or even scientific methodology?

But we have to remember that the subject is sasquatch/yeti/bigfoot ... so why use professionalism? That's for REAL creatures, after all. THIS subject demands a more outrageous approach, because it's an outrageous subject.



I'm still waiting for a scientist to come forward who has the courage of his/her convictions, who isn't out there to post their glamour shots and try to gain fame off of the subject (Ketchum), or as in Sykes' case, to pretend that he's applying his scientific expertise to the subject, when in reality, his hidden agenda is to refute the subject, in a very big way ... on TV ... putting his considerable scientific clout behind it ....

... and in so doing, put the beast to rest, once and for all. And THAT is his agenda.

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keilder
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Pat
Nov 4 2013, 10:26 AM
... and in so doing, put the beast to rest, once and for all. And THAT is his agenda.

I couldn’t agree with you more Pat, we all knew or should have where this was leading once he got involved and why.

He did cover his bases with the samples however, by stating a new process had been created that could decontaminate hair 100% and get to the DNA inside. Once I heard that, I’m sorry but I did smile as I knew why he stated that.

I don’t think this is a blow to Bigfooters, well a lot of cooks maybe as it finally raises the bar and stops crazy wild theories and just means more solid evidence must be presented and as you say collected correctly with the correct providence, which according to what I had read a lot of the US samples had been.

Is that a blow to those? Yes 100% as it means they didn’t do due diligence and makes them look like bloody idiots and it should, as they have been blowing smoke out of their arse for so long they needed brought down a peg or two.

And let’s be realistic, a few strands of hair in a Bigfoot sighting area? I would never have wasted my time unless it was a clump covered in blood after a shooting.

Take it for what it is, a wake up call, nothing more!

Learn from it, adapt your collection process, create new techniques and move on. Or as a wise man once said…

“keep spinning your wheels in the woods with friends”

I think it's the best thing that could happen, as it pisses people off, and pissed off people get more determined.
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Susan
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Well, I watched most of the first two episodes of this show last night, the Himalayan and American show but missed the Russian one. (I also laughed when I saw the preview of the Russian shouting gibberish trying to imitate BF language). I was mislead into thinking this was a new show because my cable provider was listing the show in the channel guide as "first aired 1-10-14". Was this the first time it aired in the US? Or just the first time on NatGeo? I missed this thread initially.

Everything Pat and Keilder says is true and what I thought also. It did seem strange that all of their results were released on a tv show. It just felt like sensationalism and the host and Prof Sykes seemed to take great glee in proving all the evidence wrong. They came in with an agenda and now anyone who wants to submit hair should just look at their stellar work on the subject, forget about it and move on....
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Stacy
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We watched the Russian one with Jim's parents at their place last night. Yeah, poor Bourtsev... he's just so delusional. Another one of the old guys who's been doing this for half a century with no results, so he's gone around the bend to try and justify why. He was SO pissed when the results came back as anything other than "Yeti" and he flat-out refused to believe that Zana wasn't 100% human (sub-Saharan African, likely brought to Russia via the slave trade). In the truest, non-mean sense of the word, it really was pathetic.
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Bukwas
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Stacy
Jan 11 2014, 05:28 PM
Yeah, poor Bourtsev... he's just so delusional.
Yup, remember where he spent his summer several years ago? With his buddy Mary in Tennessee?
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Stacy
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Yuuuuuup.
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Susan
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Bukwas
Jan 11 2014, 08:57 PM
Stacy
Jan 11 2014, 05:28 PM
Yeah, poor Bourtsev... he's just so delusional.
Yup, remember where he spent his summer several years ago? With his buddy Mary in Tennessee?
Ooooooh yeah, I remember that...... :blink:
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