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New & Changing Ideas; The world used to be flat...
Topic Started: Dec 28 2013, 02:01 PM (1,796 Views)
Doberman
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Throughout history, mainstream science has been wrong time after time....hundreds of examples. Yes, science is good, but do I trust 100% of the "facts" released? No, I do not. Modern Anthropology is based mostly on opinions. Agreed, the Ph.D's with their names are impressive, however, no degree in the world can tell me if a person is open-minded or deeply rooted in scientific dogma.

"A closed mind is like a closed book; just a block of wood" ~Chinese Proverb

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Doberman
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pretty weird article from 1912....



http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9E0DEEDD153CE633A25757C0A9639C946396D6CF
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Doberman
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another weird story from 1886...
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Doberman
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Took a reconstruction diagram of a Homo Heidelbergensis from the net, fast forwarded several hundred thousands years of evolution with some computer editing. ....Relatives? Maybe.....again, no answers, just theories and ideas from me...
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Just Curious
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Wow, you must have been reading my mind! I've been thinking lately about the changing views of science, specifically the whole 'the world is flat' 'fact'. Science is only as good as the latest technology in some cases. I prefer mathematics myself...

It's easy to say there are no Sasquatch skeletons, but until a fresh one is discovered and identified, we just can't say that.

I recently did some investigation into the article about the skeletons found in Wisconsin and it is a factual account. Whether or not they were giants is unclear, but I puzzle over the description of the face - what were they describing with the statement about the position of the nasal section being higher?
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Doberman
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In response to the nasal cavity, a larger cavity helps to warm & condition the air before it reaches the lungs much like a moose, caribou, and even the neanderthals. A camel's nose is designed to reclaim moisture from the air before it is exhaled. When a dog is overheated and actively panting, its sense of smell is reduced by as much as 40 percent as it uses the air to cool itself rather than for smelling. The description of the nasal section being higher on the skulls could possibility allow for a larger Turbinate Area, giving the specimens a greater sense of smell and the ability to deal with harsh environments? Below is a comparison of a human skull with a Homo Heidelbergensis skull....Notice the position of the nasal cavity.
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Stacy
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Already, I am loving this thread. We don't really do much talking about the actual subject anymore, despite the forum name...mainly because most of us have already been doing this for so long, and have beat each and every horse to death many times over. BUT, here's something different with a fresh spin, presented intelligently and without bold statements of concrete claims...so, YAY!

I can say for most of my group (not as in belonging to me, but that group to which I belong) that we all, for years, worked with the surety that this was nothing more than an upright ape. A gorilla that evolved to walk on two legs. That was until we hit the jackpot and lucked into our study area, and while I don't know that I personally am ready to think they may be a human species (which freaks me out a bit, frankly), it's become clear over the years that they are MUCH more than "just an animal."

Generally, I tend to file them in the Missing Link category in my own head...maybe not THAT missing link, but something that split off from the pongids way back about the time that our ancestors did. Who knows... but it's fun to speculate about. :)
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Susan
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I agree with Stacy, this thread is awesome!

I love those old articles, to me they seem to be very accurate and believable. Maybe I'm just a sucker but I just don't believe there were that many hoaxers around in those days like today.

Really interesting info on the nasal cavity and it makes total sense to me!


Just wanted to add, this subject IS what brought all of us together about 10+ (yes, TEN) years ago. We wouldn't be friends today without it! :D
Edited by Susan, Dec 29 2013, 01:52 PM.
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Doberman
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Found this on the net and can't stop wondering. This is just one guy's interpretation & reconstruction of a Homo Heidelbergensis skull....It looks very close to what sighting after sighting describes....not saying this is Sasquatch's ancestor, but there were many different types of hominids.....could one type have survived, against all odds, like the Coelacanth, but evolving to stay away from the social, violent, meat eating humans?
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Pat
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Very interesting topic. After Doberman posted links to the Wisconsin giant bones article, I did an online search and found this site: http://www.sott.net/article/256712-A-giant-mystery-18-strange-giant-skeletons-found-in-Wisconsin-Sons-of-god-Men-of-renown

It has photos and all kinds of links to more information on the giant skeletons.

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Susan
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Interesting site, Pat..... If true, it's sad that such evidence has been covered up and/or not reported. How are we supposed to lean more about such things if science is not allowed to study them?
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Just Curious
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OK, so here is the exact description given in the NY Times article:
"From directly over the eye sockets, the head slopes straight back
and the nasal bones protrude far above the cheek bones.
The jaw bones are long and pointed, bear a minute resemblence to the head of the monkey.
The teeth in the front of the jaw are regular molars."

The Homo Heidelbergenis skull depicts the same head slope straight back from over the eye sockets.

I'm still not sure what is meant by "the nasal bones protrude far above the cheek bones" statement?

Jaw bones are long and pointed seems to be describing a protruding jaw perhaps?

Supposedly someone (the brothers?) did a detailed examination and wrote about the skeletons. I wonder if that included measurements. I have some research to do because I think the information is at the county historical society and that isn't too far from me.
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Doberman
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In response to Susan's post....Could you imagine the events AFTER the government announced that, in fact, there is a relic hominid species surviving and living in people's backyards? The freak out level & hysteria of the citizens would be off the charts. I understand why "they" are trying to keep it under wraps. The majority of people are fed information like docile sheep. Throw something new & explosive in the pen and the sheep panic. Not to mention the economics, the lumber industry is a major export for the US. What if it was all shutdown, nationwide, mandated by federal law to protect a new endangered species like the whole early 90's spotted owl thing in the pacific northwest. Whenever you ask why, 9 times out of 10 the answer indirectly trickles down to money......I apologize, please forward my conspiracy rant to youtube....haha
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Just Curious
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Stacy (and others of the group who agree), could you share examples of why you say that you've come to the realization that they're more than "just an animal"?
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GuyInIndiana
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Well, I'm not sure if this will make sense, but in a simplistic way, they seem "contemplative"...<?>... like they're testing US and observing US to figure out how to deal with us. Sometimes when they come in, we never had/have a clue they're just sitting out there watching us, but ever since 2010 when the one came in and sniffed the recorder then put it's hands on Kristen's car, we've seen a reasonably repeatable pattern where IF they're around, they'll wait anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour, then that's when they'll break loose and reveal they're around.

I've honestly wondered if over the many years that we've been there now, not only have we conditioned THEM to us, but they've conditioned US to their habbits, and now at least on the surface, it seems like they're less interested in interacting or acting up with us around. Almost like, they've learned we're no threat to them, and IF we're in camp, unless something unusual is going on and therefore draws them in to be interested, they can pretty much take us or leave us.

To me, they really seem to have a rational side where they can observe, learn, and formulate responses based on who and how many are in camp. Then other times, they'll completely catch you off guard and go ape-shit on ya.

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Doberman
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OK,...I tried to condense my view, sorry it's a tad long winded...but this is what I think.....

After humans discovered agriculture and extra food was at hand, survival of the fittest was replaced. Agriculture in a sense "domesticated" us by creating a dependency so that the animal (us) loses its ability to live in the wild. Fact; we are the longest running species on the planet that has been removed from natural selection. Being social & well fed, we began to care for the sick & weak, allowing all to pass on their genes over and over for countless generations....Is it possible an ancient hominid, instead of becoming genetically diluted, continued developing and evolving with natural selection. Humans are liken to the dumb, fat, slow domesticated farm turkey that now doesn't have the tools to survive in the wilderness....Sasquatch could be the smart, tough, fully capable wild turkey. If you told a domesticated turkey his wild cousins has a bigger brain & can fly two miles, they'd laugh and say, "Whatever, we can fly 10 feet, that's good enough, besides, most animals can't fly at all!"...Looking at other animal's senses, we label them as "super-human"...a bats hearing being able to locate a flying moth in total darkness at moving speeds...an eagle's eyes seeing a rabbit from over a mile in the weeds, a deer's nose smelling a human from another ridge top, a beaver holding it's breath for 20 minutes, a leopard stalking within feet of prey, an alligator bending a steel bar with it's jaws, an antelope clearing 40 ft in one jump,....all amazing & super-human to us. What if,....an organism developed the BEST survival tool, a brain, to super-human abilities?....Science states that a result of domestication is losing more than 40% of senses and a third of brain volume (domestic cat being the only exception)....I believe, if they exist, they're not "domesticated", but their brain & body has evolved to it's full 100% capabilities in the wild sense....What percent of our brain do we use? How does it work? What is a brain's maximum ability? Scientist's today still don't exactly know. Avoiding dumb humans wouldn't be that hard if I could hear 4 times better than you, could smell excellent, top notch vision, & strategically smarter. The Native Americans have been telling us for hundreds of years about "The Wild Man".....They are rare, very rare.....A rough estimate gives around 500,000 black bears in US alone....totally guessing, but maybe less than 5,000 of them in North America. They live in heavy forested areas with large amounts of rainfall. This environment lends no fossils. Not one chimpanzee fossil has been found due to the environment they live in. A park ranger at Yellowstone worked 20+ years in the woods and never found a black bear carcass. Fossils are a miracle and many factors have to be perfect, plus finding the fossil. Plus, they more than likely bury their dead. They live in small family groups, with no need for anything else. Why would a Killer Whale need to build fishing nets? They are adapted to their environment perfectly. I believe they mainly eat vegetation and cellulose, with some protein when available. To digest cellulose, you have to have a large digestive tract, and to carry a large digestive tract, you have to have a large body. I believe they go into a state of torpor in the colder months when cover & food is sparse, which many animals do. They are mainly nocturnal, when humans are not out. They have evolved to avoid humans with what we would consider ninja abilities x 10, using cover even at night. In the horse's evolution, the main pressing factor was that their environment slowly changed from a dense lush forest to open grasslands. They changed. Why couldn't another animal change and evolve with the pressing factor being to stay away & avoid humans at all cost? In the evolutionary arms race between animals, the prey evolves to get away, and the predator evolves to catch up....We have simply have not nor had the need to kept up in this race. What gives us the advantage to other species on this planet is being social, passing down knowledge, preparation & planning, tools, fire, & problem solving, plus a large brain.....Are we smarter than the other species? Yes, but without our advantages, could we catch one with our bare hands? No. We are not equipped. We grew in our chosen comfortable niches, and if we didn't like it, we cut down the dark forest and changed it for our needs. If humans had not conquered agriculture and stayed on a mostly protein diet, our story could have been different. The question goes to what are they? Honestly, I don't know what they are...I think they are a robust relic hominid, so close to us that unnatural interbreeding could be possible much like a horse & zebra, a dog & a coyote, a cow & buffalo, a house cat with a serval...They could be a species who's key to survival was evolving to evade humans and fill the niches we were not. All of these ideas are from countless hours researching the subject on my own. Until solid proof is obtained, my thoughts on the subject are as wrong or as right as anyone's. There were many different types of bipedal hominids in the past that our scientists say became extinct. What if at least one of these species evolved and changed like the other animals did to survive?
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Doberman
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couple of pics....
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Doberman
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Homo-Ergaster is one of the earliest members of the genus Homo, possibly ancestral to, or sharing a common ancestor with Homo Erectus. Some scientists propose that H-Ergaster emigrated out of Africa and into Asia. Another suspect?

Homo-Ergaster Reconstruction....

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Stacy
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Just Curious
Dec 30 2013, 06:36 PM
Stacy (and others of the group who agree), could you share examples of why you say that you've come to the realization that they're more than "just an animal"?
In addition to Mike's comments, which I fully agree with:

- Unlike "regular" animals, they've been almost completely unpredictable. We've spent so much time looking for patterns, and occasionally one develops, but just when we think we've got something pegged, they'll change things up again. They'll do things that regular animals wouldn't do, and NOT do things that regular animals would.

- Very many of our recordings really do sound like some kind of words. There's enunciation, syllables strung together...you know that so-called "samurai chatter" the BFRO came up with a label for years ago? We used to laugh at the notion. Well guess what... they do it, and on a regular basis.

- Recently, Mike found audio from his DVR system during a time when we weren't even up there. It's close to camp but quiet, indicating that it wasn't a response to anything or directed toward anything distant. It sounds almost conversational, which to me backs up the notion that there may be meaning behind the sounds. And, the fact that it occurred when nobody was even around is significant, at least to me.

It's just being in the same area for years on end, and it being a relatively active area...you just get the feeling that you're dealing with VERY intelligent beings, as smart as us but in different ways.
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Susan
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Doberman
Dec 30 2013, 10:41 AM
In response to Susan's post....Could you imagine the events AFTER the government announced that, in fact, there is a relic hominid species surviving and living in people's backyards? The freak out level & hysteria of the citizens would be off the charts. I understand why "they" are trying to keep it under wraps. The majority of people are fed information like docile sheep. Throw something new & explosive in the pen and the sheep panic. Not to mention the economics, the lumber industry is a major export for the US. What if it was all shutdown, nationwide, mandated by federal law to protect a new endangered species like the whole early 90's spotted owl thing in the pacific northwest. Whenever you ask why, 9 times out of 10 the answer indirectly trickles down to money......I apologize, please forward my conspiracy rant to youtube....haha
Yes, I agree with you that if this were revealed NOW, all hell would break loose. What I'm thinking about is if things were allowed to be studied from the time these skeletons were first unearthed, over a hundred years ago. People must have thought the idea of these huge giants was crazy talk even then too. It's a pipe dream, but a trickle of a new idea here and there over the years might have led to much more acceptance today. We can't change history so my point is moot.

I, for one, would like to know if those huge skeletons were real and how/why they existed. I guess we'll never know for sure now.....
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Susan
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I have a question for the Pure Michigan Crew......

You mentioned a "conditioning", Mikey..... you're getting used to them and they are getting used to you..... does that mean that activity has lessened when you are around? They are more used to you so they do less antagonistic behavior to try and challenge you or scare you off? I'm sure that's why you are always trying to think of new and different ways to change things up........

Geez, another time I am wishing I lived closer to all of you. It would be so cool and interesting to experience your research area...
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GuyInIndiana
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That's probably a "yes, mostly, but..." kind of answer Skippy. I think early on the group tended to act like a bunch of normal people would for being out there in a temporary situation for 2 or 3 days at a time, but as time went on we became more acclimated to the surroundings including some of their behaviors, so *now* we probably don't act or react as normally as other people would being out there. I think that as one factor has changed their approach to us.

The family had some extensive amounts of woods just north of camp clear-cut this spring and summer, so THAT alone put a damper on what we noticed going on around us, though early on during the clear-cutting there were tracks showing up in the work area and even a handprint on a tractor window much like what happened to my daughter's car back in 2010. Then, the longer the work went on, it 'seemed' to move their travel around or away from us, but just as soon as we'd resolve ourselves to this change, they'd surprise us with new tracks or close vocals at a completely unexpected time.

Like 4th of July weekend, all of us got in late on Wednesday night, and by 1:30am Thursday morning we had all settled in for the night. Low and behold, 3:15am one came in right behind the camper where I and the Jeff Simon's family were all sleeping with windows and vents closed, and screamed loud enough to wake me up. Everyone else in tents managed to sleep right thru it, but Paul (sleeping in his truck) was woke up by it as well. My DVR audio captured it very well, which given the quality of the audio capture on the DVR means it was well under 100' away, maybe anywhere between 50 - 75'.

There was one other very close incident on Friday night that weekend... and then other weekends it's just been completely dead. When I did my 10 day stay in late July/early August, I only had 2 nights where I know there was activity, but then tracks would show up when there were no vocals or reason to believe they were in the area that day.

It's a piss poor analysis on our part, but the best way to summarize it is that there are little predictability patterns that seem to emerge, or at least on the long term, you find are repeatable, but on a daily/short term basis, they may act just like they did the night before, or completely baffle you with something new or just completely out of norm.

Our big incident in 2012 that lasted from 2:24am to 5am was one of those cases where we had gone 'in' for the night nearly 45 minutes to an hour before, and then one just comes in behind camp and went nuts. The only thing about that weekend that was technically different was that we had someone pregnant bring us a top and bottom she had worn for a day that we hung on hangers under our shelter. While purely anecdotal in nature, the weekend that Kristen's car had handprints left on it and the recorder was sniffed, was when she was carrying Gideon and was only 2 weeks from having him. One of my goals is to find someone who would/can cooperate with us and try repeating this more than once in a season to see if there's a repeatability to it.

Still, (rambling on here) EVERY year seems to bring with it some familiarity, and then again every year seems to have a new twist or change in behavior that makes you go "wow, that's different". Their greatest predictability is that they aren't predictable, except on a minor scale. To me, their ability to observe and modify their behaviors over the long term means they're reasoning, intelligent creatures. Still, for being our 'betters' when it comes to size and abilities, they still are cautious enough about us to do everything in their power to stay out of our view.

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Susan
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Thanks, Mikey, that was very interesting......

Really interesting about Kristen being there and what transpired. Your last paragraph sums things up very well and is probably why they have been so good at eluding us for so long....
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Doberman
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Awesome idea with the pregnancy pheromones, Guy In Indiana!
Pheromones activate pre-coded genetic programs and cause immediate changes in behavior.


A very significant part of the human genome - about 5% or about 1,500 genes of our 30,000 human genes - is used to code the receptors of smell. Imagine a sasquatch's abilities compared to ours?

Two anatomically distinct organs respond to smell, the olfactory system located in the upper part of the nasal cavity, and the vomero-nasal organ or VMO in the nasal septum...Makes me think back to yet another advantage to the larger nasal cavities in the earlier hominid skulls....

Now I have to try and convince my wife we need another child so I can use her pregancy pheromones for my Bigfoot research..."It's for science, Honey"
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Just Curious
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I wonder if it has to be a pregnant human female. Have you tried dousing clothes in scent from other animals like deer? And do you otherwise hang clothes out in the same way?

(Just trying to think of a Plan B in case Doberman's wife says 'no')

ETA: On another note, I found that Beloit College was called in to do work on the sites where skeletons were found. I checked and the college does have an Anthropology Dept, but what they acknowledge having in their possession is just artifacts. I wonder where they sent the skeletons. I also wonder why Beloit College, but that's another matter.
Edited by Just Curious, Jan 3 2014, 09:21 PM.
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