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Fighting With Puppets
Topic Started: Jun 17 2007, 01:12 AM (718 Views)
Endless Skies
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Fairy Boy Extraordinaire
Puppets, a popular tool used by many a ninja. However, puppets are strange in the fact that they work as another fighter in a battlefield, the thoughts and strategies of the puppeteer being channeled through to the puppet. That means a puppet has basic stats as a totally separate combatant.

Here is just a note. The stats I am posing here are for a puppet controlled with all ten chakra strings. If someone is controlling two puppets, each with five strings, each puppet would have one half of these stats. If someone was controlling three puppets, two having three strings and one having four, then the two with three strings would have 3/10 of the stats and the one with four would have 4/10. Why? Because the attention of the puppeteer is divided as well as the fact that less strings means less control. Puppet masters can control 5 or 10 puppets at a time and be deadly simply because they have practiced, aka their ninja skill is godly. Thus, more is not better unless you can actually control them. You may have 200 with 1 puppet, but with 10, it's 20 a piece, meaning they are quite a bit weaker. This also includes everything except durability of the weapons. So ninja skill and intelligence are divided by the total amount out.

Also, to control more than one puppet, you need a ninja skill of at least 50. For every extra puppet up to 10, 10 being the max that a normal person can muster (normal being keyword, be creative here), you have to have an extra 10 ninja skill. So, to control 10 puppets, you need 140 ninja skill. But remember, that's 10 puppets with only 1/10 of your ninja skill and intelligence on how it reacts.

This also counts for if a puppeteer is fighting and only controlling the puppet with one hand. Also, there should at least be a base INT stat needed for a person to fight alongside a puppet and perhaps a set deduction of perhaps ninja skill when they are doing this. When a puppeteer is controlling the puppet without moving, he has total control and is able to see the situation. When he isn’t, he lacks the vision and foresight needed to properly operate a puppet. So either disallow fighting while puppet controlling or set a large stat reduction and a minimum intelligence thing, maybe even to the point of 100 and a ¾ reduction, simply because it really doesn’t make sense to be able to do that very well at all. If you can't see what is going on with the puppet, you sure as heck can't get it to fight even close to basically. The opponent could move and you would be too occupied to notice, let alone move your puppet. The basics behind puppets is that the ninja fights with a tool, not alongside of it.

Also, one thing. Puppets can not ever be sentient right off the bat. From what I can tell, that isn't a problem so far. Kichiro seems to have split personality disorder fed in to the puppet and Will just has assigned a personality to his puppet, but neither are sentient. That means they can not act on their own without their puppeteer controlling them. The puppeteer might not be actively conscious of it, but they are actually doing it and it requires their physical body. Meaning if their hand is bound somehow, no matter how much the split personality is, the puppet can't move. How can a puppet be sentient? I can think of a few ways off the top of my head. Be creative.

Anyway, here are the basic stats from what I’ve gathered.

Speed of the Puppet – Dictated by the ninja skill and the intelligence of the user. Mostly, it’s how fast the user can move it. It can match up with Rock Lee without weights speed if the user can keep it up that way. Even if the user is no where near that speed, they can still process it mentally with a high intelligence and see it coming, even if they can’t move to react.
Speed = Ninja Skill / 2 + Intelligence / 2 – Negative effects of material (Equation can be changed to Ninja Skill + Intelligence / 2, but that might make them overpowered.)

Power of the Puppet – Dictated by the ninja skill and the material that the puppet is made from. Mostly, the stronger the material, the more damage the puppet can do. The higher the ninja skill, the more efficiently it can do damage.
Power = Durability + Ninja Skill / 2

Defense of the Puppet – Dictated again by the material and the ninja skill of the puppet. Material is a given, but why ninja skill? Because those little lines of chakra attached to it do give it a little extra chakra resistance. Plus it’d be unfair if every other weapon’s resistance was able to be increased by weapon skill and these little guys weren’t. After a while, puppet users would loose any ability to last more than one hit in a fight.
Defense = Durability + Ninja Skill / 2

Power of Traps - Ninja skill plus the durability of the weapon or trap. If it's a kunai, it's simply ninja skill. If it is a steel blade coming out from the chest to strike an opponent, then it is different.
Traps = Ninja Skill + Durability (If any)

Now, what is the basic material of all puppets? Wood. Meaning it has a starting durability of 8, since puppets are neither heavy or light to begin with, though that can be changed depending on the make. To upgrade your little puppet, you’ll have to pay for it like any other weapon, not counting the attachments, which are initially, if metal, made of iron. There are some special puppets out there you have to quest for as well. However, unlike other weapons, you can not use a puppet as a starting weapon. You have to pay the 70 for it, even if you want to start with it. Why? Because puppets are a lot more versatile.

So, puppets start out as medium wood weapons. A light wood puppet can be made or a heavy wood puppet can be made, but you have to pay for it extra. And when upgrading a puppet, you follow weapon rules, including traps.

Yes, this was written up partially as a rules like post, albeit super sloppy. It's a bad habit due to being ex-staff. And if this all goes well, I'll rewrite it to be posted. Anyone have any other ideas, things that need to be added? I want this to be fair, so if you think something is really urgent, tell me so we can work on this. So far, as I can tell, there are three puppet users on this site, Shinoskay, Kichiro and my character William, and we should get these down before more come along.

Oh, and what is my logic behind the entire dividing stats by amount of puppets out from the series? Grandma versus Sasori. 10 puppets took down 100, because even if their powers as puppeteers were equal, the 10 puppets had much more control over them and were more skilled.

Edit : Do you think we should come up with a distance formula of how far the puppet can be away from the puppeteer? I mean, within eye sight and all is a given, but should we just not put limits on that?
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[-Cloud-]
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Apocalypse (Lv4)
It all looks great, I will wait to see if anyone has any problems with it though. As for distance... let's leave that as a "Don't over do it" thing.
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Shin Draven
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The People's Champion
ZOMG.... Will, you are a genius. I stamp my approval...
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Endless Skies
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Fairy Boy Extraordinaire
Do you think Speed should be Ninja Skill / 2 + Intelligence / 2 – Negative effects of material or Ninja Skill + Intelligence / 2 – Negative effects of material?

And what would be the minimum Intelligence needed to fight alongside a puppet, and would 3/4 or even 7/8 power sound fair? Truthfully, I'm iffy on whether or not it should be allowed at all, simply because if the opponent moves out of the puppeteers line of sight then the puppet can't react because the puppeteer can't.
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Shin Draven
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The People's Champion
Ninja Skill / 2 + Intelligence / 2 – Negative effects of material

That is fine with me. I mean, the result would show how good they are with it. If the result is between 1-30 (genin skill); 31-59 (chuunin); 60-149 (Jounin); 150+ (Sannin).

As for everything else, when I'm at work, I'll print everything and go over it in more detail.
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Endless Skies
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Fairy Boy Extraordinaire
Oh, that gives me a great idea Draven. Instead of having it as an add on to puppetry, have it as an extra ability. So, until 30, the stats would be at a 7/8 cut, until 59 a 3/4 cut, until 149 a 5/8 cut and then past that a 1/2 cut, still having to figure in the amount of chakra strings used.
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[-Cloud-]
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Apocalypse (Lv4)
I am not sure what you mean by the fighting with the puppet... but what I got from it would be an ability. Which would be fine. Learn an ability and be able to fight along with the puppet.
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Siverous
The Great One
Hey i have no problems with it.

Good work.
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shinoskay
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Shino virus
unfortunately I must agree with the fight while using the puppet to require an ability as it would make sense for something like that to be requured BUT I also think that all the present puppet master's should be automaticly given it so that it doesn't look whierd that they had been fighting with there puppet and moving at the same time so far.

As for the chakra strings and puppet stats, I had been thinking about that alot and I think I agree with the stat cut with less chakra strings EXCEPT that it should be formatted differently. the way I have played my puppet is that you have control over say an arm or a leg per chakra string but not both with one. so at best I have used two puppets at a time fully (I am presently splitting that in the saga and only using th e legs of dead units). I play my puppet by having five chakra strings gives me basic control like moving around and punching while 10 give me more advanced control like wiggling fingers and toes or allowing me to convert my taijutsu on to the puppet so it could fight with my chars skill as if it was my own char.

I think intellegince should not affect a puppets speed as in a strait dash you don't need intelligence yourself to move fast. Now for speed BOOSTS like pulling objects or kicking off of objects can be affect speed, but for the most part it should just be you ninja skill. I agree with the power of the puppet system but not the defense wich I think should just be based on durability as when a puppet is damamged its not un-usable and so is already hard to get rid of unlike a sword or other weapons wich are nearly un-usable when damamged in ways like it chips and then breaks or if it gets bent. I do NOT agree with the trap system and think it should solely be based on ninja skill as durability has nothing to do with how a blade sticks out of a chest or smoke is spewed from the puppets mouth.

Again on the note of the stat cut, I think that it should be as is requested in the origional post except each puppet can only be fully controlled for basic actions like attacking and moving by five chakra strings. umm, I have more on the matter but I do not have the time to put forth for it. I hope my oppinion is of use here, good luck.
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Endless Skies
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Fairy Boy Extraordinaire
If the staff are fine with auto-giving the ability to all current puppet holders, I am perfectly fine with that.

The thing about the chakra strings is that in the manga, Chiyo-basama, the old lady and master of the puppet arts, controlled 10 puppets perfectly with one string per puppet. I think you definitely have a good idea, however at the same time it would have to do with how skilled a puppet master is. If they have enough ninja skills, they might be able to extend their chakra from that one chakra string to be able to control the whole mechanism. 10 being the base, that's what I put as being able to fully control one puppet.

As for intelligence being speed, Cloud actually came up with that one. A puppet master's physical speed is negligible unless they are not purely a puppet master. What allows a puppet to move quickly and react quickly is a combination of how fast the puppet master's fingers move, ninja skill, AND how fast they can react mentally, intelligence. Just because a puppet master's ninja skill is 100 doesn't mean they can mentally process their puppet moving at high speeds. They need intelligence to be able to pick up the slight movements and mentally process it at high speeds.

As for durability, you're right on that. Puppets, unlike other weapons, do not totally become useless if one part is destroyed. I'd just like to make it so that they aren't totally obliterated in one round. The highest max durability is 40, and once someone has 40 strength and 40 taijutsu, that's 80 attack and able to turn the puppet in to a smoldering pile of nothingness in a few seconds. I'm not sure HOW to do that without making puppets obsolete after a certain point. Yes puppets are tactical weapons, but if they can be destroyed even before their tactics start, that just makes them useless and puppet masters powerless after a certain point. Yes, some have reassembling abilities, but if you hit them where there isn't a joint with enough force, they will crack and crumble.

As for traps, the durability would have something to do with it. A steel blade is going to do more damage than an iron blade, but if I have to put more of a handicap on it to make it fair, I can get that.
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shinoskay
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Shino virus
AHH, I see now, the durability of the blade not the puppet, I agree with that then. Now on the speed, I understand that but then it shouldn't affect the puppets speed but the ninjas ability to properly control it at such speeds, you ever hear the saying that the hand is faster then the eye. finally, reading that there is indeed a defense cap I agree with the ninja skill being part of the defense so long as it can't increase by infinite due to the ninja skill.
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Endless Skies
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Fairy Boy Extraordinaire
Cain has brought it to my attention just how complex puppetry can get. Not only is there the material of the puppet but the material of possible armor on the puppet, etc. etc. etc. Along with the add ons that you have to include, he has suggested a mini-sheet for all puppet users to have tacked on to their profile. I'm not arguing. Here's my suggestion on it.

Puppet Name :
Type : (Human, Animal, etc.)
Material :
Weight : (Heavy, Medium, Light)
Specialty : (Just like character's jutsu preference)

Weaponry : (Any weaponry it has listed here)
Armor : (Any armor it has listed here)
Accessories : (Any little add ons.)
Modifications : (Will explain later)

Power [Modified] : Example : 10 [25], 10 being base, 25 being modified.
Durability [Modified] :
Speed [Modified] :
Trap [Modified] :

And Cain just gave me another idea. Modifications for puppets. If someone wants to modify their puppet so that their stats aren't the set bases of the formula, they can buy add ons and modifications to make their puppets different. Like Kankuro's lizard puppet had a powerful shield that blocked most any attacks with it. That would be a powerful add on, but would probably decrease speed. That kind of thing.
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shinoskay
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Shino virus
hmm, I like the Idea but the "modifications" part some what confuses me so I would like that explained to me whether we use it or not please.
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Endless Skies
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Fairy Boy Extraordinaire
Replacing arms with swords, legs with fins, things like that. Basic modifications on the structure of the puppet to make it more unique and less like the normal model. Changing the head around, stuff like that.
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shinoskay
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Shino virus
adding extra shit, not just to replace, and taking old shit off, without replacing it, amd what not?
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Endless Skies
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Fairy Boy Extraordinaire
Mostly.
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Endless Skies
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Fairy Boy Extraordinaire
A few puppet abilities
Hidden Strings [Natural]
Description/Seals: After using chakra strings long enough, even the newest of puppet masters can learn to hide the glow of the chakra that usually comes when they are attached to a puppet. This allows for stealth work with puppetry or for other uses of object control.
Requirements: Ninja Skill 10, Intelligence 10
Effect: Allows chakra strings to be invisible, for more stealthy manuvers.
Cost: None

Forced Puppetry [Natural]
Description/Seals: One of the darker arts of the puppet master is the use of puppetry to control an unwilling item or person. By attaching chakra strings to them somehow, the puppet master gains the ability to manipulate whatever it is that they managed to snare. This puppetry is rudamentary at best however, such as pulling a sword to the side just as it is about to strike or pulling at someone's leg to trip them. If the subject is unwilling, it is nearly impossible to actually control them as they will resist.
Requirements: Ninja Skill 50, Intelligence 50
Effect: If target's strength is larger than the user's ninja skill, this skill is nullified. If not, it allows basic movements to be made on the target.
Cost: 5 per turn used on an inanimate object or weapon, 15 per turn used on a human being

Partnering [Endure]
Description/Seals: After a puppet master has fought with a puppet for so long, they start to be able to not only fight with it, but fight alongside it. They can only fight with one arm, however, as it requires at least one hand free to control the puppet, even if you are controlling it with only one finger. This has dangerous costs though, as the puppet master's concentration is cut even farther than normal. Fighting alongside a puppet would require at least one hand free, and the concentration break of fighting alongside it is added on to the concentration break of only having five strings attached to it out of the ten. So, at most, unless they find a way around that, they are fighting at 1/2 strength.
Requirements: Ninja Skill 30, Intelligence 30
Effect: Allows the user to fight on their own while controlling a puppet. Decreases the effects of ninja skill and intelligence stat on puppet by different amounts depending on how skilled the pupeteer is. 1-30 (genin skill) decreases by 7/8; 31-59 (chuunin) decreases by 3/4; 60-149 (Jounin) decreases by 5/8; 150+ (Sannin) decreases by 1/2. This loss is compounded on to the chakra string penalty unless the user finds a way to control their puppet with all ten chakra strings while fighting.
Cost: None

Taijutsu Puppetry [Endure]
Description/Seals: Most of the times, a puppet master is unable to use Taijutsu themselves, however they can still watch and understand it very well. With that understanding, it is possible for them to manipulate their puppets to do such jutsu that they are unable to do. With this skill, it is possible to learn a Taijutsu if their puppet's stats are high enough to learn that Taijutsu. However, they can not perform the move themselves until their own stats are high enough for it.
Requirements: Ninja Skill 40, Intelligence 50, Taijutsu 20, must learn any Taijutsu move they wish for their puppet to use.
Effect: Allows the puppet to use any Taijutsu move the user knows. When using Taijutsu, puppet gains a Taijutsu stat of 1/4 its owner's ninja skill stat.
Cost: None

Human Puppetry [Natural]
Description/Seals: Puppet masters soon learn that puppets are not the only things that can be controlled. By connecting their chakra strings to the bodies of a human, they are able to increase their movements and abilities by a small amount, useful if that small boost is all that is needed in a fight for the users to win. This does not take over a human but rather increase their perception by the natural discerning eye of the puppet master. Chakra strings rules still apply.
Requirements: Ninja Skill 50, Intelligence 50, Medical 30
Effect: Increases target's Speed by 10% of ninja skill + intelligence of the puppeteer. If the puppeteer knows partnering, then the puppeteer can fight along side their human puppet. If the puppeteer knows Taijutsu puppetry, the human can use any Taijutsu move that the puppeteer knows and their original stats permit while increasing their Taijutsu by 10% of ninja skill + intelligence.
Cost: 5 per turn used
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shinoskay
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Shino virus
I personaly see no problem with them but its not realy up to me. Although with the puppet partner thing I think that should be automaticly given to the puppet masters as I'm sure they where already doing so as it is, this means that they also need to have there stats forced up so they can have it though so I will leave it up to the staff to decide how that will work out.
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Endless Skies
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Fairy Boy Extraordinaire
No need to auto-force the skill or the stats. Simply promise to not use the move again until you meet the requirements and it should be fine. That happened once with a character of mine where I had and used a skill when I was a few points short of what I needed to be. I simply promised that I would not use it until I had the points needed.
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ReficuL SolbaiD
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Your Lord and Master
at first, I didn't really like the idea of the stats. However, after reading it all, it does make sense. As I see it, a puppet is just a weapon, and thus the puppet, itself, would have no stats. This holds true, regardless. On the other hand, when placed under the control of a puppeteer, the puppeteer's control over it would enhance how effective it is. I like the way you have it figured out, Endless.

I do like the idea of (ninja skill+intelligence) /2 - negative effects of the material. However, you may want to specify that its the weight portion that alters it. you may also wish to say "effects of the material" instead of "negative effects" as a lighter puppet would be easier to move

Durring the manga, one person controlled around 100 puppets at one time (though he was also the ultimate puppet master as well) so you don't have a max set of puppets that you can control.
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shinoskay
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Shino virus
hmm, well actualy I would qualafy to use it minus a few intel points as I have used my puppet that way and its an endure, what I could do is contue to use it but to not be very good at doing so. also, just so you know Raficul, this Site is suppose to be, although as close as possible to the stuff in Naruto, more relistic then naruto and that person probably had a jutsu or some blood line that let him use one hundred puppets. or he could have had his puppets use other puppets.
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Endless Skies
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Fairy Boy Extraordinaire
Well, that's what I mean by being creative actually Reciful. The reason that the puppet master could control 100 was because he had a chakra spinner that controlled all 100 at once. However, a normal human can only control 10 at a time. They have to think out of the box if they want more. 10 is just the max off the bat. ^.^ And by creative, I don't mean copying Sasori's chakra spinner. -.-;
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NanoSong
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Seal Evil
I have a puppet, by the way. And apparently, by your equations, my puppetry is quite impressive. I'll have to keep that in mind. lol
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Endless Skies
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Fairy Boy Extraordinaire
If someone has time, could they write this all up in to a rule-ish type post? I really don't think I can from this point onwards unfortunately. I just feel like shit and it's the kind that won't pass for a bit. No one has complained, so I think this should do good enough as 'finalized'.
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T@Z
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HA-HA!
Nevermind. I just found out I had no permission to do so. Apparently. Too bad since tehre are no active MODS whenever Im on.

*hint hint*
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