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| Death by Firing Squad | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 18 2010, 08:09 PM (817 Views) | |
| Barb | Jun 18 2010, 08:09 PM Post #1 |
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Ruby
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Is this Biblical? How do you feel about it? Is God okay with it? |
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| Pastor Rick | Jun 19 2010, 09:38 AM Post #2 |
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What are the circumstances? Also, what makes this more grievous than say hanging?? |
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| Barb | Jun 19 2010, 12:24 PM Post #3 |
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Ruby
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Well, it was the recent news of Mr. Gardner's death that originally prompted the thought... I listened to his story of his upbringing which was thought to have brought this man to the point where he could murder... On the same news cast I listened to a lawyer defending a man who was arrested for armed robbery using the man's upbringing as the reason why he should be released with not guilty... Found both men were raised in a similar way...one was being killed yesterday and the other was looking at freedom with no conviction... When I read the Word, I get a clear opinion from our Father that when there are two witnesses to a murder and the murder is premeditated...the man should be put to death... Not talking about heat of the moment murders where someone killed another person in rage, or jealousy... I'm talking about those who planned out the murder... A planned out homocide... I believe reasons for this is to deter others from committing such an act... I've heard both sides of the coin regarding this... As far as weighing firing squad versus hanging... I believe hanging is quicker, but not an option legally anymore... I recall at one time about thirty years ago taking a strong stand against this form of justice, but after studying our Lord's Word, I believe there's a time and a place for it... |
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| Pastor Rick | Jun 19 2010, 09:29 PM Post #4 |
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So we are not talking about the form of execution, just execution, correct?? |
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| Barb | Jun 20 2010, 09:38 PM Post #5 |
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Ruby
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I guess whatever is on anyone's heart to share Rich... I know I stood firm, back in the day, that I couldn't ask anyone to do what I couldn't do... I could never take a life...how could I ask someone to exercise this act due to the criminal nature of a man/woman... But, now after all these years, I see there is purpose... Then there is understanding what God means with the following scriptures... 1John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. |
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| Pastor Rick | Jun 21 2010, 01:39 PM Post #6 |
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Then back to the original question, altered slightly. Is execution of criminals scriptural? Yes... |
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| Barb | Jun 21 2010, 05:05 PM Post #7 |
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Ruby
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Could you share those scriptures? And what's the purpose, do you believe? |
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| Pastor Rick | Jun 21 2010, 08:29 PM Post #8 |
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I will need some time to look them up. Will try to get to them tomorrow morning before my appointment...
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| Pastor Rick | Jun 22 2010, 03:46 PM Post #9 |
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Hi Barb, Here are a few scriptures to study... Ex 19:12, Ex 21:12, 15-17, 29, Ex 22:19, Ex 31:14-15, Ex 35:2, Lev 19:20, Lev 20:2, 9-13, 15-16, 27 There are a lot more examples, but I'm sure you get the point...
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| Barb | Jun 23 2010, 02:13 PM Post #10 |
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Ruby
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Hi Rich, Thank you... I'll work through them...Wahoo, Ad's finished school, except for next Tuesday and a dinner with the cast from the musical...phew!! So, I'll have more time... Was there anything in the NT that you could find? |
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| Pastor Rick | Jun 23 2010, 06:33 PM Post #11 |
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Hi Barb, Nothing in the NT that tells us to put someone to death, either KJV or NIV. |
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| Ray Krohn | Jun 26 2010, 12:44 PM Post #12 |
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...I agree Rich, there is no instance in the New Testament where execution is advocated. I believe the reason for that is that the Old Testament is under the old covenant, before the coming of Christ who by His own testimony did not come to abolish the law but rather fulfilled it. The sins that earned death in the Old Testament are the sins Christ died for. His death was all-inclusive, for all and in all. He paid the price we would have otherwise had to pay had we lived under the law... but we live in the Age of Grace, and NOT under the Law. I have read that God gave the Law to His people to preserve them until the time of His coming. The Law is not wrong - it cannot be, it was given by Him: but the debts incurred through the infractions - the sins commited by the breaking of the law - have been paid. There is a difference. It is natural that man longs for Justice. We are created in His image, and He is Just. Our problem is that we are also corrupt, and finite - we cannot understand Justice the way He does. We cannot see outside of the moment, where He can see all. Matthew 7:12 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Now let's balance that command with what we see happening in the world around us. Many Christians confuse Forgiveness of sins with the Working out of Consequences. Dr. Stanley, who's site we met on, does not have this confusion. To many, the idea of God's Forgiveness implies that everything will be made right. We believe that once Forgiven, any hardship that later occurs must be from the Enemy, because we are right with God. But how can that be? The Bible clearly illustrates quite to the contrary. What did Eve do in the Garden? What, really, was her sin? Wasn't it a very very simple thing? All she really did was reason with herself that the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was "a delight to the eyes", and was "desired to make oneself wise." That's not a bad desire, is it? Didn't Solomon pray for Wisdom, and was he not granted it by God Himself? ...But Eve reasoned by herself. She took something He told her not to. She acted independently, without God's leading - and that was her sin.... It was also Satan's sin - acting independently without the leading of God. God forgave Eve, He even slaughtered an animal and clothed her and her husband - covering them, even as He covers us. He also made a promise to her, telling her that her seed would bruise the head of the serpent... a foretelling of Christ Himself, descended from our greatest ancestress... But He never, never wiped out the consequences for her. Eve's consequences were not hers alone. Eve, who is called the "Mother of all Living", can also rightly be called the "Mother of all Dying" - because if not her sin, there would STILL be no death in the World. The consequence of Eve's sin was to unleash Death EVERYWHERE. Animals consumed animals, murder became commonplace, fields were choked with weeds, life became a hardship and it's gotten no easier even Millenia later. And yet He forgave her. What I am getting at is, I don't believe we have the right to judge one another and take a life... but He has that right. Consequences will continue to be the result of sin, and if He takes that life, then so be it. Can we incarcerate criminals? Yes, but do we have the right to be their punisher, or should we try to rehabilatate them? Well, perhaps to answer that we need to ask Jesus Himself, for this is surely a matter of the Law. Jesus, Oh Lord, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Matthew 22:37-40 "...You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbour as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Luke 10:29 "...And who is my neighbour?" Luke 10:30-37 "Jesus, taking up the question, said, A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho (leaving behind the Temple of God and going to a place cursed by Him), and he fell among robbers, who having both stripped him and beaten him, went away, leaving him half dead. And by coincidence a certain priest was going down on that road (himself leaving the temple of God and going to a cursed place); and when he saw him, he passed by on the opposite side. And likewise also a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the opposite side. But a certain Samaritan (a despised people, half-Jews whom the Jews hated) who was journeying, came upon him; and when he saw him, he was moved with compassion. And he came to him and bound up his wounds (cared tenderly for this injured man), and poured oil and wine on them (What a blessing! He soothed and cleaned the man.) And placing him on his own beast, he brought him to an inn and took care of him. And on the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said 'Take care of him; and whatever you spend in addition to this, when I return, I will repay you.' Question: "Which of these three, does it seem to you, has become a neighbour to him who fell into the hands of the robbers?" Answer: "The one who showed mercy to him." ..."Go, and you do likewise." |
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| Barb | Jul 19 2010, 11:37 AM Post #13 |
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Ruby
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Hi Ray, Sorry it took so long to respond to this...I've been seeking for God's guidance and something wasn't sitting right with your response... So, what do you think God would have wanted done to the robbers who hurt the man, in the first place? Keeping in mind that Jesus was sinless at the time and now, but at the time this parable was taught? He lived within the guidelines of the laws, statutes and ordinances... And what do you believe the difference is between the laws, statutes and ordinances? And do you believe that we have God's approval to defend ourselves and our families from the enemy...and our countries? Is the military against God? In other words if someone is trying to kill us are we within God's plan to kill them in self defense? |
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| Ray Krohn | Jul 25 2010, 10:14 PM Post #14 |
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Good evening Barb, It has been a long time... I was just happening by when I saw you had a reply, and as I honestly felt there was more I could have shared in my last post on the subject, I will share it with you here. What do I think God would have wanted done to the robbers who hurt the man in the first place? God doesn't need to ask us to do anything to the robbers - and in fact, He forbids it. He will deal with them. The truth is, Jesus Christ told us to show compassion to such men as these: Matthew 5:38-42 "You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.” Romans 12:19 "Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord." Hebrews 10:30-31 "...For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. " Our Lord and Savior went so far as to reprimand His most beloved disciple when He took up a Sword to defend Him from attackers - a militarily justifiable move indeed! John 18:10-12 "Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.) Jesus commanded Peter, "Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?" In Matthew, the Lord's more ominous warning is recorded: Matthew 26:52 "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword." The religious Jews, the Pharisees we read about in Scripture - they despised the Lord for these sayings. They were looking for a Saviour who would build a mighty army and command a revolt against the Roman Empire - righting all wrongs and bringing the World tumbling to bow at the throne in Jerusalem. This was not what Christ was about at all, and that made Him a stumbling block to the Jews. What about the Laws, what about Justice? Doesn't the Old Testament command death for various crimes? It certainly did... but who can live up to the Law? Who isn't already condemned to die by it? John 8:3-11 "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. (I imagine they literally had just caught her in the act, and dragged her shamed and naked through the streets to stand her before the Lord to shock both Him and His followers) In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing Him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with His finger. When they kept on questioning Him, He straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." You see? The Bible teaches us that if you are guilty of one sin, you are really guilty of them all. James 2:10 "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." Who then, are we sinners, to judge other sinners no more or less guilty than we? Matthew 7:1-2 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." The Lord is the only one qualified to condemn sin, as He is the only one qualified to forgive sin - because He is the only One WITHOUT Sin. Is it wrong to defend yourself or your family from attack? This is a very hard thing to imagine, and I pray to the Lord my God that I am not called to do such a thing (witness the death of my family at the hands of their attackers); but I must unequivocally say that the martyrs who cry out from beneath the throne did just that - they laid down their life for Christ - and they did not fight to keep their life or the lives of their loved ones. Stephen didn't, Paul didn't - and later Peter himself, who was commanded to put up his sword by His Lord, was also faithful. He watched his wife crucified, and wept at her cross, telling her to keep her eyes on Jesus... and when she died then he asked that they crucify him upside down - because he did not deserve to be crucified in a like manner after his Lord. The Lord in His Revelation to the Seven Churches praises Smyrna, the persecuted church - not because they fought valiantly but because they died for Him... and they did: The Muslims slaughtered the Christians in Smyrna (now renamed Izmir, in Turkey), in 1922. I've been considering prison conversions a great deal lately, and the Lord has brought before me many testimonies from inmates who came to Christ from behind bars. Had these men been sentenced to death by us sinners, perhaps they never would have had the chance to receive the Lord.... ...A brother is here, perhaps there's no more to say... peace Sister. In Christ, Ray |
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| Pastor Rick | Jul 26 2010, 02:04 PM Post #15 |
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Hi Ray, Nice to see you back. Hope things are better for you and yours. Your post brings to mind a question that I have struggled with and that you addressed partly. I agree, we are not to seek revenge for ourselves or strike back. The martyrs are proof of this. But are we bound from protecting another party?? Jesus' rebuke of Peter was because he was trying to stand in the way of God's plan as it was unfolding. But would Jesus really take exception with defending say, a child or another innocent?? Like you, I hope I never have to find out. But this is something I ponder... |
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