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Death by Firing Squad
Topic Started: Jun 18 2010, 08:09 PM (820 Views)
Ray Krohn
Advanced Member
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Rick my brother,

I can't answer that question - but I know we shouldn't need to ponder it. I believe that if we make it our practice to follow the Lord's leading in our daily lives, then He will be faithful to show us His way when the time comes... and we will know what to do.

I personally cannot fathom standing by and watching someone get killed (whether I know them or not), if there is anything in my power I can do to stop it (and probably even if there isn't). But that's me. That's my natural disposition - and God doesn't use our natural dispositions - He is looking to infuse His into us.

I read about our Lord, and the disciples that followed Him to Golgotha - and they never raised a hand to bring Him down from His cross. When I read about the struggles of the martyrs, I've sometimes seen the defense made by their friends - but it isn't typically an armed resistance... people are spirited away in the night... they are surrounded and upheld and marched through soldiers.... and if it is the Lord's will, they make it through.

"The Lord will have mercy on whom He will have mercy." "It is appointed for men once to die, and after that, the Judgement." Glib sayings whose reality can be hard to face.

You know, I was touched in reading Revelation 19:11-21

"I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice He judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but He himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of His mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."

Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

Here are the points that touched me in this passage:

1) He is the one who judges and makes war - not His army of Saints and Him, not the Church and Him, not the Bride AND the Bridge-groom. But only Him. Only He is fit to Judge, to break the seals, and to execute the Judgement.

2) The armies of Heaven follow Him - but they are dressed in bright, white linen. These aren't the angels; this is the Bride who has made herself ready. This is the raptured Church of God. They are present, and they are CLEAN - not present to do battle but present for the marriage.

3) He comes to do battle with the hoardes of the Anti-Christ. He comes and throws the Beast and the False Prophet into the Lake of Fire alive... but He alone is responsible for killing ALL the rest of them - all of the hoardes - with the sword of His mouth that is the Sharp, double-edged sword of the Word of God:

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart."

By His Word alone He is able to kill the hoardes of the Enemy - but His army does not apparently lift a finger. They come not dressed in armor, and not wielding weapons - but dressed in clean, fine linen. They come singing, not shouting and crying for vengeance.

Is this not a picture of whom we are to be, in Christ? Lord willing, we will one day be these mature Saints - ready for our Bride-Groom. This will be us following Him as He goes forth to judge and make war. If we would not raise a hand even then, when the ones against whom His hand is raised are so clearly guilty, then can we raise our hand now?

The bottom line is, you cannot show someone the love of Christ down the barrel of a gun. We cannot fight fire with fire, nor repay evil for evil. You cannot love your enemies, while you're blowing them away.

If any of us decides to stop trusting in our God - who is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent - and takes matters into his own hands - then we are taking the role of Judge - a position we have no right to. We are saying, effectively, "Lord, I do not trust You."

He knows what we need, and when we need it. Sometimes, He sifts us, even as Job was sifted. When the trials come, like Job, we must say "Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" ...In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.


Amen
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Pastor Rick
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Well stated my friend... :)
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Barb
Ruby
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Hi Ray,

So good to see you!!
Prayers for you and your family continue...
If it's oka, I'd like to address things you've said...one at a time...
You first response regarding the robbers...
I think it's important to determine timing with this parable...
Jesus had not yet gone to the cross and Jesus was sinless...therefore hHe did not go against the law in anyway...
God did ask the chosen tribes of Israel to do something with robbers in the law...
If at this time, while Jesus was still in the flesh...to suggest that Jesus was teaching them to ignore the robbers would be a transgression of the law...
I think we have to be careful of each event and when it occurred...

As far as the Adaultry by the woman...I know on the surface it appears to suggest that Jesus wasn't condemning the woman and showed compassion...and He did, but the motivation for such a response may be debated...
The law, at the time was clear that not only the woman, but also the man was to be put to death...if she was caught in the act, why did the people only bring the woman and not also the man?
I don't believe God has asked us to keep asking, seeking and knocking for the Truth if we could understand His message at first glance...
Again, we need to be careful to look at the motivation or a nonbeliever could see contradictions in the Word and say Christians don't know what they are talking about...on the one hand God says I'm the same yesterday, today and forever, but He says one thing in the OT and changes in the NT...
The law is our guide...and so for the Just there is no law, but the law was never made for the Just...It has always been for the unjust...
It'll take me a little bit to share the scriptures...it's the long weekend here, so I'll get back when I can
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Barb
Ruby
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Here is the one scripture I was referring to.
1Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

So let's look at it, more in context...

1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

So here in is another question...
Does this sound like God has asked us not to use the law when dealing with ungodly behavior?
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Ray Krohn
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Good morning dear Sister in Christ,

Do we who are in Christ say we are righteous? Not even Paul would have dared to say so. The righteousness which may be attributed to us comes solely through Christ - His righteousness attributed to us by faith in Him and in His all-atoneing death for us - a death we sinners earned under the Law to which we are all subject. This righteousness now attributed to us is not ours by nature, but only by our being in Christ - by abiding in Him as He abides in us. If we believe we are above the law by our self-righteousness, then we have become the Pharisees to whom Christ said:

Luke 5:32 "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."

Did He imply here that the Pharisees were well, were righteous? No - and if these men were honest with themselves, they would have heard in this what the Lord intended them to hear - that they themselves needed to repent. That they were sinners - no less so than the whores, the tax-collectors, and the murderers among them. But if these Pharisees truly believed they were righteous, then Christ spoke truly to them - He did not come to call them. Not being called, these law-keepers would forever be locked out of the Kingdom of God. I know that I have need of Him - and I know He has called me to repentance.

Believe me, please, when I tell you honestly and plainly that by the law I deserve to die. I don't say this to boast. I have sinned and sinned greatly. Even now I struggle with how much of the things I've done I should honestly share here. The Lord has forgiven and forgotten, but I know - I still know - that in me, that is, in my flesh, no good thing dwells.

I don't just speak of sins of things left undone, which are many. I don't just speak of wicked thoughts, which once were continual - but also of deeds.

I was talking with a young woman the other day at a friends house, and she suddenly asked me "How long have you and Lynn been Christians?" This young lady has not received the Lord herself yet, so I saw this as an opening, and shared some of my testimony with her. "I was Saved a long time ago, when I was 16 or 17," I said, "but I back-slid for a VERRRY long time."
"What's back-slid mean?" she asked, "is that like when you guys sin and stuff? What do you guys call sin? - you gamble? - like bingo! (she said making an "ooo - you're naughty" face.)

"No." I said, looking her right in the eye because I know some of the sins she herself is guilty of, and at His prompting I confessed: "I drank, I smoked weed, I snorted cocaine and dropped acid." Her eyes widened - this was not what she expected a Christian to say - and there's so much more I could have told her (believe me) - but as the Spirit leads; I've confessed all to Him, and He's washed my crimson stain away (Praise you Lord for it! Oh Lord Jesus!)

By the law, I deserve to die for what I've done. We all do. You know, I don't usually quote Hollywood in any post, but since this discussion has been opened there is one quote from the aptly titled movie by Clint Eastwood ("Unforgiven") that's been playing in my head.

Will Munny: "It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got, and all he's ever gonna have."
the Schoefield Kid: "Yeah, well, I guess they had it coming."
Will Munny: "We all got it coming, kid."

Psalm 53:3 "Every one of them has gone back. They have become filthy together. There is no one who does good, no, not one."

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and fall short of the Glory of God."

Would it be right, therefore, under the Law to haul me off and hang me now? I freely confess I've broken God's Law - shouldn't I be executed for it?

Isaiah 53:3 "But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought our peace was on Him; and by His wounds we are healed."

Who are the lawless and the disobedient? Who are the ungodly and the sinners, the unholy and the profane, the murderers of fathers and the murderers of mothers - the manslayers? We all are. Guilty of one sin, we're guilty of them all.

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Barb
Ruby
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Hi Ray,

We are all sinners, but we need not be...Jesus has shown us the Way to live a godly life and yes, we all fall short.. absolutely...
And it is only through Christ's blood we are seen as righteous to our God...
However, as Christians we are fully aware that when we sin we suffer the consequences of our sin, under the guidance of the law we see what those consequences are...as we mature in Christ we are convicted quickly when we sin against the law...for sin is the transgression of the law...correct?
The consequences of our sin we must face...
If I ignore my tax bill, our authority has given me a penalty to pay for my lack of action...
If I act in haste...such as speeding, the consequence is a ticket or an accident...these would be my consequences to own for my disobedience and clearly I know the laws set out before me and ignorance is no excuse ...it is in God's eyes and therefore He will be Just in the consequences we bring on by our ignorance...
But when we are fully aware of the consequences and we choose to disobey then we suffer the consequences...God chastises ...correcting poor choices...and if He didn't we wouldn't know His loving correction to help us to become as Christ-like as we possibly can, in this life-time...never being perfect, but striving for as close to it as possible...
He has Mercy on whomever He will have Mercy on...but He will not go against His Word to do it, then He is a liar, but He knows the motivation and circumstances behind the sin and why someone has acted out in sin and or not acted being sinful...
For example we've watched people do things and it doesn't appear they are being corrected by God...their life seems to be going along perfectly, but the mature in Christ know the scriptures...where God will allow a man to gain wealth and then pull the rug out from under him, because it will get his attention more than if He had corrected him, that instant...like a puppy with a rolled up newspaper...
And when a child of His has been beaten and tortured as a child and acts out of ignorance and pain, He will not hold that child as accountable as one who has been raised knowing the truth and willfully is disobedient to His Word...
God knows the hearts where we do not, but He does give us guidelines to live within...and individually the law stands...
I do truly believe that if God wanted this man to live...He would have worked within the hearts of all those around him to keep him alive...
Was it wrong to hold him accountable for his actions under the laws of the land...based on the Judeo-Christian laws of the OT ...
It breaks my heart because I don't like seeing suffering...but I don't see those fulfilling the consequences of the law as the ones commiting sin, here...and it's taken a lot of meditation and study, thus far to come to this conclusion...
Sometimes whether we like it or not...loving someone means we need to make those tough decisions to hold them accountable for their actions and it hurts to have to discipline even those we consider our enemies...but if we don't hold them accountable our nation suffers chaos...there is wicked in our lands and that's why God said to execute the consequences He set out...to keep wickedness from our lands
For example:

Leviticus 20:14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.

Let's go to scriptures again to understand the differences from the OT to the NT regarding the law...


1John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Okay so sin is going against the law...so the law does play a part in Christianity today because without it we'd not understand what sin is...

I'm just going to leave that for a minute and post this...I think it's getting long, but Ray before I go, I want to say how awesome your testimony is and how proud our Lord must be of the way you are sharing His Word and drawing those nonbelievers to Him...
Praise God for you Ray...and the lady you spoke of is in my prayers!
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Barb
Ruby
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Just found some time to add to my response...guess that was more than a minute...;)
I want to be sure we aren't missing that God does make a difference in scriptures between the Righteous and the wicked...
I think this scriptures says it as clearly as any:

Mal 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Abraham also in his asking for God's mercy for his nephew asked if God would spare the righteous...
And I think we have to be careful not to lump all who sin in the same category as those who were martyred for their faith...
Peter chose to die, as he knew he would and most of the disciples and many saints since...the world will hate us and so it is, but that doesn't apply to those who are under the laws of the land who have been sent to their deaths...convicted of a crime with as scriptures puts it...two witnesses...
Those being willfully disobedient verses those who are killed for their faith I do not believe are two in the same...
Ray, had God allowed the laws of the land to prevail in your case...regarding the drugs...you would have expected some consequence from this behaviour, correct? That God protected you through this period of rebellion, just shows how God's Mercy runs deep...Others who have been tempted as you have been probably aren't always spared a criminal conviction and fines to pay, etc...
So for some reason, only God knows ...He spared you through the sin...
More than likely so that you could help comfort others the way you were comforted...Praise God for that!
And I wanted to me more clear with regards to what we are to do when people use us and aren't behaving in a godly fashion...
Love is an action word and we are to love our enemies, those not behaving in a godly manner...we have some things to do...
Love also along with the unconditional acceptance and all that mushy stuff...Love is caring enough about someone that we correct them when we know they are going off the rails
Correcting from my postion is still a big part of Love.
We are also to pray for them...well, if I know someone is behaving contrary to God's laws, I'm going to pray that our Lord does what it takes to get them to follow Him...opening the door for our Lord to come in and make the changes...but I wouldn't be praying for that person to use me some more...because it's not helping them to become all that God intended nor is it going to keep chaos and wickedness down in our land...
And Ray, I do believe the Justice system in Canada is corrupt...I believe God can assist His own when they are faced with a corrupt justice system...and that's where I am with my thinking at this point...

Trusting that God's Word is true and that the authority over us was hand picked by God and He won't allow one of His children to go through anything without Him right near.

Let's go to our guidance...we are to obey those in authority over us
Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
So if the authority says death by firing squad, those who fulfilled those consequences were in fact exactly where God wanted them at that moment.

I do not see how we can get around the fact that God builds up and tears down and He alone brings His servants to Him and He alone increases their wisdom...and He puts people in authority over another...
Then He tells us to obey that authority....anything corrupt and in the ruling...He'll take care of that...but our job is to submit to the authority in our lives...
Pray that makes sense...
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Ray Krohn
Advanced Member
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Good evening Sister,

I can say "Amen" to a lot of what you've said... and I too believe that consequences need to be brought to bare for our growth, for our development...

Proverbs 23:13-14 " Do not withhold discipline from a child;
if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with the rod
and save his soul from death."

...But we must also take care that in punishing, we do not say "Lord, this is what I intend to do about this. If this is not your will, then you must stop me."

Jesus said to Satan, quoting Deuteronomy 6:16 "Again, it is written, you shall not test the Lord your God." - Matt 4:7

There is a great difference between God's Permissive Will (what He will allow - which is sometimes even sin so that correction might come) and what He truly desires - His Perfect Will.

Romans 12:2 "Do not be conformed to this present world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may test and approve what is the will of God-what is good and well-pleasing and perfect."

I believe that if we assume all that He allows must also be His will, we err. He did not want Adam and Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit - I believe that act of rebellion, which He always foreknew, broke His heart.... and yet He allowed it. If He didn't allow it, then we wouldn't have free will at all... we'd be puppets on His strings... and that is not what He truly desires. He desires a counterpart, a bride, a match, a lover... That is so much different....

I do not want to misspeak. I value you people - all of you, brothers and sisters in Christ.... I do not want wrong words to bring harm to any. Let me pray, and seek Him in my response... I too will be back with more, Lord willing.

In the Love of Christ Jesus, Saints...

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Ray Krohn
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Good morning all,

The Lord has really kept this topic on my heart the past few days - a proper response is demanded, and I've been weighing in with what more I can say. Lord, let my words be Your words - keep me true to You.

Barb, in a previous post, speaking of Jesus being sinless before coming to the cross, you said "...there He did not go against the law in anyway." Yoy are right, He was, of course, sinless - but was He not also called a law-breaker by the Legalistic Jews?

He did "work" on the Sabbath (healing, commanding a man to carry his bed, etc)
He touched the unclean - lepers and sinners alike
He did not tithe
He taught them not to take "an eye for an eye", but to "turn the other cheek"

Jesus did not break the written law - but He did break with oral Laws, traditions and interpretations - and we need to be certain that when we look to observe the Law (not so that we can gain righteousness, which is unattainable, but so that we can follow the Lord our God Jesus and not grieve Him) that we do not make the same mistake the Pharisees did - specifically, we need to be certain that we interpet the laws correctly.

Regarding the woman caught in the act of adultery:

You have suggested that perhaps the Lord's motivation for releasing her was that the man caught with her was not also brought before Him - that by excusing this adulterous man the verdict against the adulterous woman could not be rendered...

Our Lord is Righteous - in fact, He is the only righteous one. Would a Righteous Judge release a guilty woman - one caught in the act by more than two witnesses - simply because not all guilty parties were brought before Him? Would we expect that of a human Judge today, when deciding on a capital case like this was?

Suppose a woman and a man committed murder (a capital crime in the US) - and that they were caught in the act. Suppose the Police hauled the woman before a Judge and the man was not brought in... would we call that Judge righteous if he refused to render a verdict on the woman in that case - and instead released her only telling her not to murder anymore? No.

We would expect a righteous Judge to say, if His intent was to punish this woman at all, "Where is the man she committed this sin with? Why have you not also brought him before me? Go therefore, and fetch him - that I might Judge both, and that justice might be done."

There is no question at all about what The Lord Jesus did here - I contend that He showed Love and Mercy - as is His right to do. The Pharisees believed they were righteous, and had the right to enforce the Law - but the only one with that right
is God Himself - because ONLY He is righteous. There is NO one righteous apart from Christ.

Romans 3:10-12 "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

Romans 3:22-25 "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood."

Sister, you later said "The law was never made for the just, it has always been for the unjust." This is wrong.

The Law was made for all - that by the Law man might come to know what sin is - and in seeing, know our condition before God. The Law cannot save anyone - the Law condemns, because we CANNOT uphold the law, or keep the commandments. The "righteous" man is a myth - there are none righteous - APART, that is, from Faith in Jesus Christ. If there were any righteous, then Christ died in vain. Those who are righteous would be saved by their works, and have no need of His Salvation. Those who are unrighteous could be said to have earned their fate in the Lake of Fire, and damnation.

You provide the quote in 1 Timothy, starting at verse 8: "But we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully."

There is first, we must note, an "IF" in that statement. It would appear, from Jesus judgement over the adulterous woman, that to stone her to death would have been an unlawful use of the law.

Secondly, this quote should not start at verse 8, for before it Paul (writing under the direction and authority of God in Christ Jesus v1-2) wrote to Timothy:

1 Timothy 1:3-5 "...I exhorted you... to remain in Ephesus in order that you might charge certain ones not to teach different things. Nor to give heed to myths and unending genealogies, which produce questionings rather than God's economy, which is in faith. But the end of the charge is love out of a pure heart and out of a good conscience and out of unfeigned faith;"

Further, Paul writes

1 Timothy 1:6-7 "From which things some, having misaimed, have turned aside to vain talking, Desiring to be teachers of the law, though they understand neither the things they say, nor concerning what they confidently affirm."

This is an indictment that should not be taken lightly - these ones in Ephesus, to whom Paul charged Timothy to minister, were themselves desiring to be teachers of the Law... they diminished the Gospel, the Good News - which is the atoning death of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins - all sins - big and small. Paul knew what he was speaking about, he himself had been accounted righteous by the keeping of the law... and look what kind of man he had been, prior to his encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus: A murderer of Christians.

Barb my sister, you have quoted also:

Hebrews 13:17 "Obey the ones leading you and submit to them, for they watch over your souls as those who will render an account, that they may do this with joy and not groaning; for this would be unprofitable to you."

Who are the ones leading you? Who watches over your soul and will render an account? Is it our secular human government? Will Christ turn to Stephen Harper or Barak Obama one day, and say "What kind of a citizen was this?". No. The one to give an account to our Father is Christ Himself. The One who watches over your soul is the Holy Spirit. The one who leads you should be your Lord and your God.

If we read this passage in Hebrews to mean that we are to obey the secular government, then historically we can see some major problems.

When the sons of Israel dwelt as slaves in Egypt, a Pharoah came to power by God's will, one who did not know Joseph. That Pharoah saw that the Hebrews were growing in number, and prospering in Goshen. Satanically inspired, he enacted a law whereby the midwives were to ensure that all Hebrew boys did not survive their birth. They disobeyed, and allowed the boys to live. Did they sin?

Adolf Hitler was allowed to come to power in Germany by God. He exercised that power over God's chosen people, Israel. He enacted laws whereby it was unlawful for people to harbor Jews whom he ordered extradited to concentration camps. If you were caught harboring a Jew, you were called a blood traitor - and you and your family were sent to that camp as well.

As a Christian, if you accept Hebrews 13:17 as a charge to Obey secular authorities, then did the people who harbored Anne Frank commit a sin in doing so?

Should all the Christians in Germany have given up the Jews of whom they were aware, so that Hitler could fulfill his ultimate (and Satanically inspired) goal? The extermination of the Hebrew race not only from Germany, but from the whole of the Earth?

One day soon God will permit another man who is not a man to come to power. That man will be given control not of one country, but of them all - unifying the Earth under a single government. He will change laws and times, he will speak blasphemies against the Most High. He will stand in the Holy Place, and proclaim himself to be God. Are we to obey him? Will he give an account for us, and does he watch over our souls?



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Barb
Ruby
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Ah Ray,

You are beautiful...and I pray you take that as a complement...not an insult...I mean it in the highest regard! Great questions and things to ponder!...Ah, how I've missed these interactions...Praise God for you!

Let's put the woman who commited adultery aside for a moment...let's deal with our authority over us...does it make a difference according to God's Word if they are secular or not...I propose no difference, in fact secular is better because we are God's witness and He addresses that in the scriptures I'll provide...
I'd also mentioned that God will take care of His own in a corrupt system...He gave to us beautiful examples of how our Lord will guide us in a corrupt system...so we know with certainty when that man of lawlessness...Satan...antichrist is revealed, we have His protection in the corrupt system...I'll share those scriptures also...
Um, looks like I'm saying beautiful a lot...and I have to smile...I'll share that, too...a little later...
Okay would those who protected the Jews have been sinning...not if they were listening to the Holy Spirit...that's why God is the Just Judge and He knows the hearts and He treats us as individuals, not as the laws in the land are today as Pressident law...and when one of us is caught up in the corrupt system of Pressident law, God will take care of His own...He will move in the hearts of those of us caught in the system and those of in authority to make the decisions for those of His own in the system...He's got the power to do so that His will shall be done and that all things...even when they appear on the surface so wrong...will work together for good... for those who...

Okay, are we to obey secular authorities over us...

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Barb
Ruby
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So, to the Word we go:


1Pe 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
1Pe 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
1Pe 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
1Pe 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
1Pe 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
***Daniel was a good example of this when under the authority of the King of Babylon, who is our example, during the time of the end when that man of lawlessness will proclaim to be Jesus...setting up His temple pretending to be God and ruling the world, for a short time...five months...Revelation 9

Even in captivity under a corrupt leader, Daniel did good works, remained in relationship with God and stayed faithful to God and God gave him favor with the King. Joseph was another example of doing good works, falsely accused and God showing favor to Joseph by moving in the heart of those in authority over him.

Paul again is a perfect example of how God protects His own when the corrupt authority is after one of His children...His friends helped him over the wall...God will move in people's hearts to do good works to fulfill God's plan. If His children are murdered, etc they have their reward with Him. God will step in and when His purpose is fulfilled, in a matter He'll guide His child through the system of corruption...some will be martyred...they will die for their faith...we know that but we also know that He will be with us through that time and He will either bring us to Him, in our death or keep us where we are or as in Peter's case, find a way to release us from our capters...it's individual because God's laws are individual for us...they are a guideline for us to live a godly life, but we do not need the law, those in Christ is we are seeking to do good in a corrupt system...All leaders want their people taken care of and provided for...this looks good for the leaders and then they'll remain in power for their time when the people are happy or civilized because the people will not revolt...no leader wants war with the people...
So, doing good works, as Joseph and Daniel did will bring favor with the leaders...so let's keep going here...


1Pe 2:19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
1Pe 2:20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
*** I am forever falling short in this area, the scripture above...boy when I'm falsely accused...sometimes I react without the patience God would be pleased with...


1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Okay I'm going to post this because I want to share another scripture and for some reason, same thing happened last night...when I have this box open my reading program won't read which scripture I'm on...so this might come in short posts, but more than one...

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Barb
Ruby
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So, 1 Peter teaches us that we are to follow the laws of the land, even under corrupt leaders. We are to seek to do good works. The only time we should be afraid is when we seek to do evil in a corrupt land, then we can count on those laws of the land and those who enforce them to bring evil on us.

My Father-in-law used to say: Rules are for the disobedient...and he’s correct, if we are seeking to use our freedom in Christ for evil then we can count on being repaid with evil. But, if we seek to do good works, we’ll have favour in the land, just as Daniel and Joseph had...even though they were both falsely accused and given trouble by the authority, God delivered them...In Joseph’s case he had favour with the guards in prison and was treated well, even in captivity. Daniel was also given favour with the King and was given a position of authority over the people...even in captivity...

As Christians we can see where the rulers are corrupt but God will work in their hearts to show favour to God’s children...Satan has been limited when he comes to deceive the whole world...Revelation 9....he’s not to...



Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.



The second Satan will cross the line by killing the two witnesses and this goes against the command given to Satan...it’s over for him...until he’s released again, alone, without his followers to test at the end of the thousand years...then the final judgement will be upon us.

No it isn’t God’s will that any should die, but they will and Satan’s been already sentenced to that death eternally, so once he does go against the power God will give him...the Marriage supper will begin...and the fowls will be eating flesh of kings and rulers...Wahhooo! The final battle will commence...and mountains will fall...a very bitter sweet time for Christians...

So, my point God protects His children in a corrupt system, but we are to follow the laws of man on earth and seek to do good works...then we have favour, even when it looks bad...

Ray, I’ve gone against the law to the letter myself before, in a courtroom, I’ve stood up, talked out of turn, but was driven to do so and because I stood up and listened to that voice believing it was our Father, the people I was defending in my outburst received no monetary loss, which was what the judge was about to sentence them to.

In my own case one time before I was married, my friend who became my husband parked in a location to help me bring in my reading machine, into the place we were going...normally you can park there between certain times....but we fought that ticket, because he was seeking to do good works...although at the time I didn’t understand it as such a scriptural topic...to me the man was helping someone with a disability and shouldn’t have had to pay a penalty for that service...

We won the battle...but I spoke out of turn, once again, so that my point would be heard and God gave us favour...

Someone else might have been thrown out of the courtroom...although I ‘m sure they were happy to see us go...;)



So, again God treats us as individuals looking at all the circumstances surrounding our sin...and love covers a multitude of sin...







Which is why the only way to exercise the law, lawfully is to love your neighbour as yourself, not by Pressident law...also by loving God first...









Okay posting this and checking to see if the scriptures post with it...more to come...
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Barb
Ruby
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Ray the scriptures didn't post...ah there's something going on with this computer...I'll be back when I've figured it out...
I was going to go to Roman's 13 to support the position about how we are to submit and be obedient to the rulers whether they are Christians or not in authority over us...
But let me try and gigure out what's happening with this computer first...
The two passages I tried to post in the last post were...
Matthew 22:37, 40...where all the laws hang on the two commandments...by loving God and our neighbor...
And the second was 1 Peter 4:8

The only way to use the law...
And I believe from the example David made with his disobedience to the law, God showed His mercy, but there were consequences...
Here's a question you may have heard me ask before...
When we are promised that the same we dish out to others will come down on our own heads...just giving my way of speaking not quoting directly...
Then with Paul beating and torturing others...did God fulfill His promise in Paul's example when a Christian...he was beaten and tortured...in a similar manner whereby he himself had abused the righteous, in Christ...
In other words...he dished it out and before he died in the flesh he received similar to what he had done?
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Ray Krohn
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Good morning Barb, my sister.

I should be out the door this morning already, but I believe the Lord has me here typing and I pray it is not merely my own nature that keeps me glued to this chair for a while before I do run.

Sister, I believe we are now arguing two different things.

In your opening post, you stated:

"When I read the Word, I get a clear opinion from our Father that when there are two witnesses to a murder and the murder is premeditated...the man should be put to death...
Not talking about heat of the moment murders where someone killed another person in rage, or jealousy...
I'm talking about those who planned out the murder...
A planned out homocide...
I believe reasons for this is to deter others from committing such an act..."

Further

"I recall at one time about thirty years ago taking a strong stand against this form of justice, but after studying our Lord's Word, I believe there's a time and a place for it... "

From those statements, what I understand you to be asking is, if we, as Christians, should be involved in advocating and executing capital punishment on the men and women our laws find guilty. We should, effectively, campaign for capital punishment because it is "biblical".

Do I misunderstand your initial point?

This is entirely different from "There shall be consequences for your actions", or, as you quoted in regards to Paul's own circumstances, "what we dish out to others, the same will be on our own heads" - because the one involves us, the Christians, the salt and light of the world, making a judgement when we are commanded not to judge. The other involves the sovereign hand our Loving and mighty God bringing a hand of discipline against His own.

I have not suggested that there ought not be consequence for sins. In fact, speaking personally, you know what my family has been going through, dear sister. You know that I have resolutely stood with my son not to shield him from the consequences of his sins, but to stand by him in love that he may bare them.

I may add, dear sister, that your inclination was to do EXACTLY the same for him. The Spirit moved in you with love and compassion for this boy, even knowing the particular nature of his sin. The law would cry out for his blood - we both know that. The atoning blood of Christ is his payment. Devon's debt, paid by our Lord. Devon will still suffer consequences, this is natural and it's absolutely right. But do we lay those consequences on him ourselves, by picking up our stones and hurling them?

You ask if Paul suffered justly, with the same suffering he afflicted others with. Absolutely he did. He never would have suffered like he did, if he was not guilty of causing this same suffering to others. I am convinced of that. However, this is not an argument for capital punishment. It was not the children of God - the Christians of the day - who afflicted Paul to justly repay him for his former crimes (as perhaps Ananias supposed they should - Acts 9:10-17), but rather they showed him love and fellowship, without which, we would never have had the Apostle Paul, and the wonderful Epistles!

Read 2nd Corinthians chapter 3 this morning, and see what is written about the "ministry of death, engraved in stone in letters", this "ministry of condemnation", which stands in stark contrast to the "ministry of righteousness" which "abounds in glory". The New Covenant, so superior to the Old.

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. I am not saying His Law does not apply - I am saying only He has the right to enforce it.

"The Lord will judge His people and have compassion on His servants when He sees their strength is gone...See Now that I Myself am He! There is no god besides Me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of My hand." Deut. 32:36-39

Just as the laws of Canada are not ours, as citizens of this country, to enforce - but they are to be enforced by the courts - by the judges - by the politicians appointed. Even witnessing a murder, I cannot haul off the murderer and incarcerate him in my basement. I don't have that right. Moreso even as Christians, neither do we have that right, when it comes to judging and enforcing God's Laws.

You write in your post that we are to obey the authority over us, and disobey only if we are so lead to disobey by the Holy Spirit. Again, we agree completely. This was my very argument. We are to follow the lead of the Holy Spirit in all things, just as Daniel did - by refusing to cease praying even when praying to God was outlawed. Just as Shadrach, Meschach, and Abed-nego did in refusing to bow to the Golden image. We may do the same in combatting injustice, in standing for what is right as regards the enforcement of capital punishment. We cannot take guns and march against our capital, but we are to go out and witness to the World and spread the Good News! Jesus Christ is risen! Death could not hold Him, and it need not hold you!

Following the leading of the Spirit is something we, as Christians, can do because He lives in us. We do not need to rely on vain reasonings. We need to get into His Word, and we need to let His Word get into us. If we abide in Him, then His Word will abide in us. He will inscribe his Word not on the tablets of stone but in our very heart. Let us lean not on our own understanding, but trust in the Lord with all our hearts.

The Bible is a love story. It is a love story written to man and woman with one central thought: God is seeking a counterpart, an expression, a body for the head. Dead letters which kill do not achieve that ends. These letters were a means, and still are, to show us what kind of corrupt people we are. But the religion formed around these dead letters (Judaism) is likewise dead. The sacrifices offered by that dead religion no longer apply, because one sacrifice was made that was sufficient for all: the Sacrifice made on Calvary. The words of the Law do not speak life to any, because these words condemn us all. Life is found only in Christ. Christ, who through his atoning death satisfied the righteous requirements of the Law - thereby fulfilling it.

I have to run again, but please Barb - consider in prayer....

In Christ,

Ray


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nov1971
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I know we as Christians are suppose to forgive and leave the whole vengeance thing to God but with incidents like this story, how can we not support the death penalty as a society?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39520959/ns/us...urts/?GT1=43001
Read this story and think of the last minutes of 17-year-old Hayley and 11-year-old Michaela, the pain and terror that were their last final minutes on this earth. It is stories like and people like Steven Hayes and Joshua Komisarjevsky, which make the death penalty necessary. Let me blunt if I had it my way Hayes and Komisarjevsky, would died very slow and very, very painful deaths, no gas chambers, no electrical chairs, no firing squad or death by hanging were in a few minutes they slip off into the hereafter, but slowly tortured to death,
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