Chaocipher

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Chaocipher
Topic Started: Aug 25 2007, 12:04 AM (1,095 Views)
tidmiste	Aug 25 2007, 12:04 AM Post #1
Just registered Posts: 9 Group: Members Member #943 Joined: June 23, 2007	So does anyone else know about the Chaocipher, created by J.F. Byrne? It's supposed to be an impossible cipher, but I think it could be solved, simply by the fact that it's a transpostion. Even more so by the fact that he gives one phrase over one hundred times, encrypted in the machine. Anyone have any opinions about how to solve this? And does anyone need a copy of the cipher? I had checked out the book containing this from the library, and scanned the last chapter, which explains it. I'll be glad to send it to you.
	Ancient chinese wise man once told me... SPOILER:GO AWAY!!!!!


jdege	Aug 25 2007, 02:41 AM Post #2
Elite member Posts: 263 Group: Admin Member #246 Joined: December 7, 2006	tidmiste Aug 24 2007, 06:04 PM Anyone have any opinions about how to solve this? Have you read the Cryptologia articles?
	When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl.


tidmiste	Aug 25 2007, 10:18 PM Post #3
Just registered Posts: 9 Group: Members Member #943 Joined: June 23, 2007	I have, but it doesn't really help... (to me.) I'm thinking about trying to solve it by using those first couple of pages he provided, because if there's a pattern in encryption, the same pattern would be used in decryption. But I have a problem about this... How could a small machine like that before the use of computers remember every letter put into it, and then rearrange them? You can't put in a letter, and then get out another... EDIT: Sorry... Didn't see that second page... (read it online). I see that there were three more challenges issued, but the ones in the book will help with those too.
	Ancient chinese wise man once told me... SPOILER:GO AWAY!!!!!


Paarth Dave	Mar 30 2008, 05:09 AM Post #4
Advanced Member Posts: 70 Group: Members Member #2,712 Joined: March 26, 2008	Can you please send me the copy of the cipher?? Thanks in Advance....
	Cryptography Vanquished....


jdege	Mar 30 2008, 06:56 PM Post #5
Elite member Posts: 263 Group: Admin Member #246 Joined: December 7, 2006	Paarth Dave Mar 29 2008, 11:09 PM Can you please send me the copy of the cipher?? Thanks in Advance.... Chaocipher, From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
	When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl.


Paarth Dave	Apr 2 2008, 09:23 AM Post #6
Advanced Member Posts: 70 Group: Members Member #2,712 Joined: March 26, 2008	There's nothing over here....Can you send me the encrypted pamphlet of Chaocipher?
	Cryptography Vanquished....


jdege	Apr 2 2008, 01:24 PM Post #7
Elite member Posts: 263 Group: Admin Member #246 Joined: December 7, 2006	Paarth Dave Apr 2 2008, 03:23 AM There's nothing over here....Can you send me the encrypted pamphlet of Chaocipher? I'm not aware of any online source of the actual ciphertext.
	When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl.


cmdline	Jul 23 2008, 04:42 PM Post #8
Just registered Posts: 16 Group: Members Member #3,232 Joined: July 17, 2008	tidmiste Aug 25 2007, 12:04 AM So does anyone else know about the Chaocipher, created by J.F. Byrne? It's supposed to be an impossible cipher, but I think it could be solved, simply by the fact that it's a transpostion. Even more so by the fact that he gives one phrase over one hundred times, encrypted in the machine. Anyone have any opinions about how to solve this? And does anyone need a copy of the cipher? I had checked out the book containing this from the library, and scanned the last chapter, which explains it. I'll be glad to send it to you. Why do you think it's a transposition cipher? I know it says that in the Wikipedia article about it, but an inspection of the ciphertext shows that it can't be a pure transposition cipher because the frequency distribution is relatively flat. Mellen's article also ruled out transposition.



tidmiste	Aug 15 2008, 02:41 AM Post #9
Just registered Posts: 9 Group: Members Member #943 Joined: June 23, 2007	Well, in all honesty, it says in the book that he published that it's a transposition, like it says in the Wikipedia. I've read it myself, and that's why I've got the original pages. Also, I made the Wikipedia myself. (If you don't believe me, look at the edit history. You'll see user name "TidMiste" there too! :P) The reason why the frequency distribution is weird is because, as he stated in earlier pages (which I could send you if you'd like), he uses infrequently used letters as a way of punctuation, like QQ for a period, of W for a comma. It would seem as if the distribution is weird because of added letters, right? Also, I can see if I can find some place on the web where I can post all of the original cipher text. For now, I'll post as much as possible on Photobucket, and I can link it there. It'll have to be in the next post, since they're not there yet. Thanks. EDIT: http://s117.photobucket.com/albums/o62/pre4edgc/Chaocipher/ There we go. This album contains all of them, so just click on them, and make sure you save them unless you're willing to read them sideways! Edited by tidmiste, Aug 15 2008, 04:42 AM.
	Ancient chinese wise man once told me... SPOILER:GO AWAY!!!!!


Paarth Dave	Aug 15 2008, 01:56 PM Post #10
Advanced Member Posts: 70 Group: Members Member #2,712 Joined: March 26, 2008	Hey tidmiste, Thanks a lot for the ciphertext.....I'll study it some day as I have a very busy schedule nowadays. And do keep us all updated about your findings and observations. Thanks again.
	Cryptography Vanquished....


cmdline	Aug 24 2008, 05:25 AM Post #11
Just registered Posts: 16 Group: Members Member #3,232 Joined: July 17, 2008	tidmiste Aug 15 2008, 02:41 AM Well, in all honesty, it says in the book that he published that it's a transposition, like it says in the Wikipedia. I've read it myself, and that's why I've got the original pages. Also, I made the Wikipedia myself. (If you don't believe me, look at the edit history. You'll see user name "TidMiste" there too! :P) The reason why the frequency distribution is weird is because, as he stated in earlier pages (which I could send you if you'd like), he uses infrequently used letters as a way of punctuation, like QQ for a period, of W for a comma. It would seem as if the distribution is weird because of added letters, right? I actually have previously read chapter 21 of "Silent Years". Where does Byrne say that it's a transposition cipher? I know that he says vague things like "chaotic disruption" of the text or "splitting the written word", and in his meeting with Marcellus Bailey, the patent attorney, Bailey said something like "you have certainly scrambled your eggs" after receiving a demonstration of the model, but I wouldn't want to conclude that it's a transposition cipher based on that. I'm aware that Byrne used certain letters for punctuation, at least for the first two of his cipher exhibits, and that this would skew the frequency distribution somewhat. However, even taking that into account, how can Exhibit 1 from the book be a simple transposition? He gives you the plaintext-ciphertext correspondence (i.e. "ALL GOOD, QUICK BROWN FOXES"...). Even accounting for the two punctuation characters in the sentence being replaced by low frequency letters, I don't see how the ciphertext can be a simple transposition of the plaintext. Take ciphertext instance #1 starting with "CLYTZ..." for example. The plaintext sentence ("ALL GOOD, QUICK...") contains four "E"s. There's only one "E" in ciphertext #1. Furthermore, if the period at the end of the plaintext sentence is replaced with "W", then there should be two "W"s in the ciphertext (the other one is from the word "BROWN"). If it's a pure transposition (i.e. rearrangement) cipher without substitution, then there should be two "W"s occurring in the ciphertext. Ciphertext #1 contains no "W"s at all. Now, certainly the cryptosystem could be a combination of transposition and substitution, but I don't see how it can be pure transposition. Edited by cmdline, Aug 24 2008, 03:56 PM.



cmdline	Feb 20 2009, 08:59 PM Post #12
Just registered Posts: 16 Group: Members Member #3,232 Joined: July 17, 2008	If anyone is interested in the Chaocipher, Moshe Rubin has just created a webpage for it, including scans of the ciphers and a PDF of Chapter 21 of Byrne's book. The URL is: http://www.mountainvistasoft.com/chaocipher/index.htm There's also some current discussion of it in the sci.crypt newsgroup.



mosher	Jun 1 2009, 08:40 AM Post #13
Member Posts: 41 Group: Moderators Member #3,268 Joined: May 26, 2009	FYI, The Crypto Forum now hosts a new sub-forum dedicated to Chaocipher research: Crypto->Cryptanalysis->Chaocipher. Many thanks to Revelation for agreeing to creating this new sub-forum. Moshe Rubin The Chaocipher Clearing House



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