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The bible; comments please
Topic Started: Jun 6 2006, 03:25 PM (1,095 Views)
piercehawkeye45
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Ok, you made the point that a lot of the bible isn't morally there. Still there are good stories in there that are good for children. David and Goliath is a great story about never giving up (whether God exists or not) and there are other stories but they are rarer than the unmoral stores.

The big portion I was getting after were the Psalms and Proverbs parts. I don't have access to a bible right now so I can't give examples. You can't tell me those have some good morals in there. If you can prove me wrong do it because I'm not 100% certain it is that great. I'm getting this off of the little I have looked in the bible and what I've heard from other people.

If anyone could give examples that would be great.
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严加华
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Some of the psalms and proverbs are good, some incoherent, some bad. Some are good if interpreted correctly and really bad when interpreted incorrectly. (The Platonic Type of these is "spare the rod and spoil the child". As a commandment it's great. As a warning injunction it is horror on a stick.)

But you know what? I can find similar guidance in the proverbs of a dozen nations. There's nothing special about the Bible in this regard. Chinese proverbs are full of ready, witty guidance with occasional profound insight. (And, as with the Bible, occasional total gibberish or worse.) The same is true of Muslim Hadith, Sufi stories (which have the added benefit of usually being hilariously funny!), Buddhist sayings, etc. So again the Bible falls flat as the "best book" in this regard. There are hundreds of other sources you could go to for roughly equivalent advice.
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piercehawkeye45
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Well the bible is the most well known book in the western world and it is hard to see and heard the other religions proverbs and moral stories unless you deliberately look for them. You pretty much proved that the bible isn't the best book for morals and more that I think of it I agree with you. Yet, the bible will be considered the best book for morals (in the US) until the other stories and whatnot become more popular within the US. If we could combine the best stories from each religion and book and combine them into one book (similar to 1001 Arabian Nights) and spread it around, maybe we could get an ultimate book of advice and moral storeis.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
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Dr. Jim
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piercehawkeye45
Jul 28 2006, 08:30 PM
Ok, you made the point that a lot of the bible isn't morally there. Still there are good stories in there that are good for children. David and Goliath is a great story about never giving up (whether God exists or not) and there are other stories but they are rarer than the unmoral stores.

The big portion I was getting after were the Psalms and Proverbs parts. I don't have access to a bible right now so I can't give examples. You can't tell me those have some good morals in there. If you can prove me wrong do it because I'm not 100% certain it is that great. I'm getting this off of the little I have looked in the bible and what I've heard from other people.

If anyone could give examples that would be great.

The david and golioth story about a soldier killing another soldier with a rock to the face?
My favorite psamls is the one about how no woman can ever be a teacher or hold any dominance over a man at all, lest she be killed.
...Matt was no exception to this. When he stood in the street and noticed his chest started to really hurt again, he made the decision to look down. He screamed like a grown man would scream when that grown man sees a laser burning his chest, and that is like a little girl...
-From Super Naked Moose Man
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piercehawkeye45
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Dr. Jim
Jul 29 2006, 02:03 AM
The david and golioth story about a soldier killing another soldier with a rock to the face?

That’s not the point. The point is the moral and a lot of moral stories have violence in them.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
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Tom Joad
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Most of the stuff in the Bible that Christians pay attention to is the New Testiment, and it is the least harsh of the two testiments. Most of the horrible stuff that you pulled out of the Bible is from the Old Testiment.
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Muller
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But you know what? I can find similar guidance in the proverbs of a dozen nations. There's nothing special about the Bible in this regard. Chinese proverbs are full of ready, witty guidance with occasional profound insight. (And, as with the Bible, occasional total gibberish or worse.) The same is true of Muslim Hadith, Sufi stories (which have the added benefit of usually being hilariously funny!), Buddhist sayings, etc. So again the Bible falls flat as the "best book" in this regard. There are hundreds of other sources you could go to for roughly equivalent advice.


it's just survival of the fittest coming in to play, but with books. The bible has stood the test of time over and over. I am not familiar with other with every single other religious masterpiece, but i think the bible is the most popular, at least in the US. You can put the bible down as much as you want, but its a freakin strong ass book it will just keep surving and fight it's way back to the top.

Let me remind everyone i'm not a fundamentalist.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.
-Seneca the Younger
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严加华
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Tom Joad
Jul 29 2006, 11:57 AM
Most of the stuff in the Bible that Christians pay attention to is the New Testiment, and it is the least harsh of the two testiments.  Most of the horrible stuff that you pulled out of the Bible is from the Old Testiment.

That's because I got bored of shooting fish in a barrel. Most of Paul's writings and, of course, the great-grand-daddy of Christian "end of days" crap, Revelation, contains lots of equally horrific stuff.

Most people just go picking and choosing which parts of the Bible they like and ignoring the rest. Even the so-called "literalists" get very uncomfortable with parts of even the New Testament. Like these:

Women are never to teach nor have authority over men.

Hatred of homosexuality despite it not hurting anybody outside of (highly arguably!) the people involved.

Support for slavery in so many places it's really very, very disturbing.

Even Christ Himself uses the symbolism of a master beating his slave to show our relationship to God. Disgusting!

A truly Christian marriage...

Damn! I haven't even reached Revelation and my stomach is turning!

And don't forget that the whole notion of God having a private torture chamber in which he tortures infinitely those who sin finitely comes straight out of the New Testament. The Jews were far more vague on afterlife punishments than was the "Lamb of God", the "Prince of Peace"....

Muller
 
it's just survival of the fittest coming in to play, but with books.  The bible has stood the test of time over and over.


I won't be able to withstand the urge: which Bible? There are so many versions to choose from which disagree on even such fundamentals as "which books belong to the Bible?". The Bible stands the test of time over and over because it gets reinvented over and over.

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I am not familiar with other with every single other religious masterpiece, but i think the bible is the most popular, at least in the US.


McDonald's is the most popular food in the world. The only conclusion we can derive from this fact is that most people who eat food a) have no taste and B) have no imagination. What parallels you can draw between this and your statement about the Bible I leave as an exercise for the student. ;)

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You can put the bible down as much as you want, but its a freakin strong ass book it will just keep surving and fight it's way back to the top.


I note with interest that you don't defend the Bible as right or desirable but only in terms of it being "strong" and "fighting". This is intrinsically disturbing.

Further, I also note that you don't seem to make the link between Christian militarism and the Bible's "strength". Like, for instance, the fact that where there wasn't a strong Christian military presence historically (China, say) there's no strong Christian presence at all.

The Bible is "strong" only because it happens to be the book that the last four world superpowers worked from. When the last nominally-Christian superpower dies (that'd be the USA and within twenty years) you will find the Bible getting weaker as well. Guns are, after all, a great persuader....
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严加华
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I don't know how it happened that I posted the same message twice, but I figured if I can't delete it I should at least get rid of the body in the second.
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Tom Joad
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That's because I got bored of shooting fish in a barrel. Most of Paul's writings and, of course, the great-grand-daddy of Christian "end of days" crap, Revelation, contains lots of equally horrific stuff.


I think that most Bible scholars agree that Revelations is by NO means to be taken literally. I am not a big Bible supporter, but when I see is take this much abuse I have to stand up for it.

When the Bible was written it was a different world, and since the Bible wasn't written by an eternally just God-like figure it was adjusted to the norms of the day. Hence the passages about slavery were not out of the ordinary, there were slaves and nobody thought it was a bad thing. Also women wee held in much lower esteem in the ancient Hebrew world, and you can see it in the contex of the Bible.
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Muller
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Quote:
 
Quote:
 
QUOTE 
You can put the bible down as much as you want, but its a freakin strong ass book it will just keep surving and fight it's way back to the top.




I note with interest that you don't defend the Bible as right or desirable but only in terms of it being "strong" and "fighting". This is intrinsically disturbing.


Hmmm, intrinsically, thats the word of the day for me. It means: belonging to the essential nature or constitution of a thing. So if you are saying you are disturbed by what i said, i can understand because you think i am just agreeing with the bible because so many other people do and i am just following the crowd, in a sense. Or maybe i like the bible just because the "strength" it has had over 2000 years. People have the option to follow the bible if they want to, and people will continue to do so for thousands of years. I wasn't implying that the bible is "forcing" it's way into people's lives, although that may be the case for a small percentage of bible-followers.

I was just saying no matter what you do, the bible, however many versions of it, will never disappear. It will continue to fight its way to the top.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.
-Seneca the Younger
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严加华
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Tom Joad
Jul 30 2006, 12:20 AM
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That's because I got bored of shooting fish in a barrel. Most of Paul's writings and, of course, the great-grand-daddy of Christian "end of days" crap, Revelation, contains lots of equally horrific stuff.


I think that most Bible scholars agree that Revelations is by NO means to be taken literally. I am not a big Bible supporter, but when I see is take this much abuse I have to stand up for it.

When the Bible was written it was a different world, and since the Bible wasn't written by an eternally just God-like figure it was adjusted to the norms of the day. Hence the passages about slavery were not out of the ordinary, there were slaves and nobody thought it was a bad thing. Also women wee held in much lower esteem in the ancient Hebrew world, and you can see it in the contex of the Bible.

You're missing my point (probably because I'm not communicating it well enough).

Yes, the Bible, in the context of its time and place, is fine. The problem is when people want to take moral guidance today from the fairy stories of an uncivilised, violent desert tribe written thousands of years ago. If you take the Bible for what it is -- the moral record of a people long gone -- it's a valuable thing to read. But if you try to apply its "lessons" to modern, civilised life, throwing our morality back to the days of slavery, women as property, intense violence in everyday life, etc.... well, it's a recipe for disaster.

My objection isn't to the Bible itself. It's in people using the Bible as a moral guide -- because it's moral guidance is questionable (to put it politely).
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Tom Joad
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Jul 30 2006, 01:15 AM
Tom Joad
Jul 30 2006, 12:20 AM
Quote:
 
That's because I got bored of shooting fish in a barrel. Most of Paul's writings and, of course, the great-grand-daddy of Christian "end of days" crap, Revelation, contains lots of equally horrific stuff.


I think that most Bible scholars agree that Revelations is by NO means to be taken literally. I am not a big Bible supporter, but when I see is take this much abuse I have to stand up for it.

When the Bible was written it was a different world, and since the Bible wasn't written by an eternally just God-like figure it was adjusted to the norms of the day. Hence the passages about slavery were not out of the ordinary, there were slaves and nobody thought it was a bad thing. Also women wee held in much lower esteem in the ancient Hebrew world, and you can see it in the contex of the Bible.

You're missing my point (probably because I'm not communicating it well enough).

Yes, the Bible, in the context of its time and place, is fine. The problem is when people want to take moral guidance today from the fairy stories of an uncivilised, violent desert tribe written thousands of years ago. If you take the Bible for what it is -- the moral record of a people long gone -- it's a valuable thing to read. But if you try to apply its "lessons" to modern, civilised life, throwing our morality back to the days of slavery, women as property, intense violence in everyday life, etc.... well, it's a recipe for disaster.

My objection isn't to the Bible itself. It's in people using the Bible as a moral guide -- because it's moral guidance is questionable (to put it politely).

You may hate to hear this, but...I totally agree with you.
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Kalkin
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On my opinion the Bible is used all too often as proof of argument. Some people bash religion, because Bible is illogical and spotty. Others bash science, because they take Bible literally. My stand is that both views are imbalancad, because nobody of currently living people has ever seen a Bible. Just read Survival Moms post earlier. I agree with him. There hasn't been a genuine Bible around for 15 centuries. (the oldest currenly existing one is from 9th century) The book currently known as 'The Bible' is not the Bible. It is a book that has been rewrited, edited and faked so many times (atleast 3 times by the Catholic church to justify their power politics) that it has almost nothing in common with the genuine Bible. In some estimates there is only 5% left of the original in the-book-currently-called-the-Bible. I don't think that is enough to make any kind of judgements about what Bible is or isn't. It bothers me that people are making judgements of things based on a pale imitation.

The current book is good for stories, but people should be very careful of what they take literally. I totally agree with earlier posts about Bibles writers not having 20th century mindscape and comprehension of stuff. Well that taken care of the current book does have some stuff that makes good reading. The Genesis is a nice metaphorical description of events after Big Bang, Revelations and Daniel are entertaining (Lets see if you spot AH-64 apache or M1A2 Abrams from Revelations. Nuclear war is too easy, since H-bombs are commonly known to work on the same principle as stars.) and the Hesekiel has a description of a prophet getting vision of a seraph (a family in a car). It moves like the wind on wheels while making a roaring noise. It has four faces, (a family going to a halloween party or one guy with pets perhaps) four wings covering the body (car doors) and blinding light (headlights). Quite amusing, I guess there were some prophets after all.
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Falcon
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I think that the original King James' version is a pretty accurate translation. Any differences between it and the scriptures written by the original authors is probably just cosmetic. The Catholics really have strayed far far away from it though, but I'm not too familiar with where they draw support for their church structure from. I always figured it just evolved over time.
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