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| The problem with School | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 20 2006, 03:23 PM (1,186 Views) | |
| Tom Joad | Jul 21 2006, 02:22 AM Post #16 |
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Gap tooth so my dick's got to fit.
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This summer I've really only been surrounded by my closest friends and now tonight I went to a carnival and saw a bunch of my classmates and I realized that the world is doomed, because everybody sucks. |
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| piercehawkeye45 | Jul 21 2006, 02:35 AM Post #17 |
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Franklin Pierce
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Hey thats how I feel about my classmates. Most of them are huge tools. All they do is try to gain popularity and act like they're really cool. It gets really annoying after a while. |
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Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed I'm America! I have found the enemy and he is us. | |
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| Tom Joad | Jul 21 2006, 02:38 AM Post #18 |
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Gap tooth so my dick's got to fit.
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Its kind of weird because all my classmates like me and I get along with them good. The girls like me. But they just don't entertain me, I hate to say it but I think I have got too cool. |
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| piercehawkeye45 | Jul 21 2006, 02:45 AM Post #19 |
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Franklin Pierce
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Don't mock me Thomas |
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Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed I'm America! I have found the enemy and he is us. | |
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| 严加华 | Jul 21 2006, 02:46 AM Post #20 |
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Magister Ludicrous
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This is different from, oh, every other unionised field in what way?
I can always spot the non-teacher talking about education.... As a teacher, I have taught classes as large as 72 and as small as 9. Guess which one of those two learned the most per class? Now 9 is a bit low. It's economically unfeasible and it's actually worse than, say, 24. 24 is my ideal class size. Lots of teacher time is available, and it's also manageable in group activities (which magnify teacher time availability).
"Aiming is not hunting. Not aiming is not hunting." The corrolary to your position above is "too many people believing that fixing the problem won't take money". The problem is there and real. And it will take money to solve it. Lots of it. Like about 1% of your military budget.... But it has to be money directed properly, not randomly.
Usually directed more by political issues than educational.
Privatised schooling has been a disaster in most (all?) places where it was attempted. Private schools don't show much better scholastics in the long haul than do public. I don't see how making schools (long term interests) run like businesses (short term interests) helps anybody.
Consult away. I'm a teacher and have an M.A. in Education.
Physical education -- and REAL Phys.Ed., not the half-assed crap that is done in most schools! -- should be mandatory and daily. Not "student's choice". Unhealthy bodies mean unhealthy minds. (I say this as someone who used to weigh just shy of 400 lbs, incidentally. I'm not saying this as a hypocrite who's never had to face fitness problems.)
Teaching grammar is pointless. Grammar is descriptive, not prescriptive. Teach proper composition skills and give students plenty to read. The grammar comes by itself. You can correct gross grammar problems while working on composition. And why US history? The US' main problems worldwide right now are caused by it being so parochial. Why magnify that? Teach US history only after providing the context of world history. (And then stop being so damned ... Orwellian in your history!)
This is a joke, right?
Ah, yes. Vending machines and fast food: the foundations of the healthy diet so necessary to developing bodies and minds. Very well thought-out, that.
And it's always good to prepare students for the upcoming Nazi era.
This is actually sane.
I was with you until the chilling parenthetical.
This too is saner than most violence policies.
I was wondering when you were going to bring in parental duties. One of the major problems with schools in the USA (and in Canada) is that they're no longer schools. They're social work ministries.
My first suggestion is to study the subject of education a little more closely. You have some bizarre notions like "class size is a non-issue" that need correction desperately quickly, almost as if you have the archaic 17th-century view of education as, basically, broadcast technology. (Modern theory posits dialogue, not monologue.) Your rigid curriculum also does not take into account differing learning types nor differing teaching types. You're treating the school system as a mill stamping out prefab pieces from identical source material. This runs so contrary to modern educational thought (and trivial, common-sense observation!) that you come across as a political school board appointee! |
LC Sez:
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| Tom Joad | Jul 21 2006, 02:52 AM Post #21 |
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Gap tooth so my dick's got to fit.
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I hate to go back on you Junkie, but [][][] knows what he is talking about.
Not mocking! Not mocking! |
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| piercehawkeye45 | Jul 21 2006, 03:04 AM Post #22 |
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Franklin Pierce
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You can tell [][][] is a teacher by how he just ripped apart that entire idea. I totally agree with the physical eduacation and the other stuff but that is the first time i've heard the grammer part. Your a teacher and you should know this, 75% of shudents don't get to chapter 3 on their required readings so they not going to get that much reading needed to exclude grammer. Tell me if I'm wrong but thats what I think just graduating from high school. What do you think parents should do [][][]? Or schools encourage parents to do? |
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Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed I'm America! I have found the enemy and he is us. | |
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| 严加华 | Jul 21 2006, 03:42 AM Post #23 |
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Magister Ludicrous
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I'm not just a teacher, Hawkeye. I'm a language teacher. With an eye cast in the direction of getting a Ph.D. in linguistics. What most people "know" about grammar and language? Is so wrong it's comical. If people aren't reading their required reading this signifies to me two problems:
I witnessed this latter part myself in high school. My grade 11 English teacher tossed out Romeo & Juliet and gave us Macbeth instead under the theory that teenaged boys would rather read about death and violence than kissing. He was right. Macbeth was a great hit. Romeo & Juliet would have died on impact. He did similar substitutions across the board with poetry, modern literature, etc. As to parents? Parents should make their homes conducive to learning. My father, for example, embedded in me a deep love of reading long before I went to school; indeed, long before I could actually read myself. By the simple process of reading to me a bedtime story every night. That simple little social ritual has led me to be (self-)educated in a wide variety of fields outside of the two I have formal education in (Computer Science and Education). It allowed me to breeze through high school even though I was a lazy, rebellious little-big cuss. One of my biggest gripes about education has nothing to do with teachers, administrators or students. It has to do with parents who think they have no responsibility whatsoever for their children's education. "We're paying you people to teach. So teach." But nobody in the world can teach anything. A teacher is a tour guide. We can take our charges on a guided tour of the world of information, but if they won't look where we're pointing, they won't see a damned thing. Education begins in the student and the student begins in what the parents bring them up to do and believe. Parents can undermine an education far more effectively than even the worst of teachers. |
LC Sez:
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| Nekobe | Jul 21 2006, 05:04 AM Post #24 |
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Planning World Domination
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A year ago I may have suggested that in the future more and more education could be done online, even at the high school level and earlier. I would have said that online classes would have been a nice supplement to Tech's schooling program. But now that I am taking online classes myself to get an Associate Degree in Accounting, I can see just how many holes this form of education has in it. Quizzes are virtually useless because students need not memorize anything. They just look it up in the book while taking the quiz. Reading assignments are never done for the same reason that quizzes are useless. When a question needs to be answered for a project or quiz, it is simply a matter of looking up keywords of the question in the glossary, then copying the definition found there as your answer. If the answer cannot be found there, look up keywords in the index. Then turn to the page the index indicates until you find the answer to the question. One of my classes requires that three chapters be read a week. Why bother when I can use the book to answer questions on the quizzes and projects? The projects themselves are weak most of the time. There may be twenty problems at the end of each chapter and fifteen review questions. Students in online classes are required to do usually two problems and maybe one review question. Seminars are a joke. Half of the professors that my university has for online classes do not know how to access the online software correctly in order to give meaningful seminars. Each student's text is assigned a random color when they enter the online classroom and they cannot change the color. The background color is white and most of the time I get stuck with a very pale blue or light green color that the professor and other students can barely see. The professor's text is always black but in a sea of other colors, some of which are dark, it can be lost. Most professors have to type in all caps so that their words really stand out. My professor for Microeconomics has at least four or five typos in every sentence he types out. Now I know its a live seminar and fast paced, especially for the professor. But numerous typos just make the students think he is dumb. Online professors should at least be required to take a typing class before teaching in that kind of forum. Only a few professors have thought to write up their seminars beforehand then simply copy and paste the information at intervals into the chat program. Discussion boards are online classes' strongest point. They are graded on quantity as well as quality. The policy for most classes is that you answer the professor's four to five questions posted on the discussion board and then give feedback to at least two other students' answers during the unit week. Both your answers to the direct questions and your answers to other students are supposed to be at least fifty words. Answering a student's post with "I agree," will not cut it. This is where students get to really thinking about the material being studied and get to see other students' points of view on it. Sometimes the discussion board is just what a student needs when he or she is struggling to understand something in the book. Seeing the concept written in another student's own words in easier to understand terminology helps a lot. Overall I can see some good points in online education and there may be some classes that can be easily taught in this way. I have learned a lot about accounting but I feel that I have not learned enough to land a good job once I get my degree. The fast pace of the classes and the minimual amount of work involved makes it feel as if I am trying to study anatomy but am only being required to know the sketetal system in order to get a passing grade. I made the Dean's List due to my high grade point average but it feels like I wasn't challenged. That is not me bragging in any way, it is a statement about the online classes. Anyhow that is my problem with online school at the college level. Comments? I'd love to hear what our resident professor in China has to say. |
| Do not toy with the future, for it is a devious thing... | |
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| 严加华 | Jul 21 2006, 05:47 AM Post #25 |
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Magister Ludicrous
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I'm not a professor, just a teacher. (Although I did spend the last year teaching Chinese teachers and professors the western approach to education.) You've hit the problem with online education on the head. To adopt one common model of education -- Madeline Hunter's -- you have the following "steps" in a good lesson: 1. Your objectives must be known and optionally communicated. 2. Your standards must be known and communicated. 3. You must have an "anticipatory set" -- that is an activity which leads the students into the direction of what you wish to teach. 4. You have your lesson consisting of varying combinations of a) input, modeling and c) comprehension checks.5. You have some form of guided practice in which the acquisition of your objectives is demonstrated. 6. A closure/conclusion which ties together everything that came up in the lesson. 7. Independent practice of skills acquired (a.k.a. homework, but also many other possibilities exist). Online lessons can't really effectively supply you with #3, #4c, #6 and #7 for reasons you've already cited. It's also not all that hot at #4b for a wide variety of topics. Further, there's a part of teaching which is only alluded to indirectly in the above (abbreviated) steps: evaluation. It is nearly impossible to do proper student/teaching evaluation without face-to-face contact. |
LC Sez:
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| piercehawkeye45 | Jul 21 2006, 04:04 PM Post #26 |
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Franklin Pierce
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I'm really strong on the point that high school is a place where you should not only get your education but learn a lot about life and social skills. If you take online cources you can not learn any social skills because it is all through a computer. It is much easier asking a question through email than it is face to face. You pointed out that you can easily cheat on online courses and that is another thing that will high schoolers that take online courses should not get used too. When it is that easy to cheat that can not be good, especially if that is all that high schoolers know. |
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Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed I'm America! I have found the enemy and he is us. | |
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| Irockwayhard | Jul 21 2006, 04:05 PM Post #27 |
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Disgraced Dictator
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Ñϼӻª - you might be my favorite person right now. I'm going into my 4th year towards a secondary education degree. Yeah, I think the problem is, as you say, not enough money and the money that is coming in is being misused and misplaced. In my state, schools who score higher on state ordered standardized tests get increased funding and are rewarded with primary choice when selecting new teachers. Schools who score lower or don't meet set scores on said tests, don't recieve any extra funding. These schools are often in low income neighboorhoods, undesireable to new teachers, and are monetarily unable to offer any incentive for newer and better teachers - the state and local school board also offer no incentive. This amplifies the problem. anectodal evidence: California state universities, in the midst of a budget crunch moved to make entry-level english courses, which were normally taught in small groups, to 200+ student lectures - TAs graded papers, professors team-taught the course, there was no mandatory individual counciling, grades dropped. |
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"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein | |
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| piercehawkeye45 | Jul 21 2006, 04:13 PM Post #28 |
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Franklin Pierce
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Our state did that too. Our school acually kind of bribed us to do well on those tests (exam exemptions). I don't get the point of it, inner city schools will never do as well as suberban schools, why have a standard like that? |
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Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed I'm America! I have found the enemy and he is us. | |
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| Tech Junkie | Jul 21 2006, 05:14 PM Post #29 |
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Styx Ferryman
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1) I'm grateful for all of your input thus far, especially our resident educator. 2) I readily admit my inexperience in this field. That's why I'm searching for input. On Lazy students: I figure the best way to motivate students short of paying them would be to enforce the idea that they're actually learning something useful, something they'll need in life, or at least put to use. Learning useless crap seemed to be rather high on the complaint scale in high school, and even the first year or 2 of college. On teachers unions being like other unions: Duh. Not much of a fan of unions period. They breed inefficiency and laziness. On the money: This is true, solving the problem will cost money. However, I was commenting on this belief some people have that simply pushing more money into schools will help the problem. As others have pointed out, corrupt or incompetant administrators seem to misappropriate or misuse quite a bit of funding. This is why I suggested administrators that can handle business as well as education. Any other suggestions that would prove more effective are more than welcome. On class size: I bow to superior experience on this one. If someone in the field has evidence that class size matters, it's fair to take their word for it. How's a class size between 15 and 30 students sound? On our resident educator's lesson steps: Wonderful! These must definitely be incorporated. On keeping track of student progress: *applauds* Tack on encouragement for good progress. On better reading material: Right on, man! On PE: I admit my bias, I hated gym, and ducked it in favor of a more specific form of physical activity. By "Student's choice" I meant selecting a sport or other physical activity that they preferred. For example, a year of backetball, or aerobics, gymnastics, football (whatever sort, let's not split hairs), weightlifting (Like I did both in HS and College). . . But you are right. Perhaps it should be required every year. On parents being part of the problem: Sorry I left that out. My premice for this school was that it was there to educate people, not act as day care. It needs to be made clear to parents that their kids are their responsibility. Failing that, make it clear to the students that their progress is their own responsibility. On Online Classes: Not the best of ideas at the high-school level. Iffy even in college, unless the student just has a severe lack of time. I avoided them. On Grammar: That's why I only included it as a refresher. If it weren't for the fact that those of us moving on to college will have to go through tons of papers, I wouldn't have bothered with it. Figure it'd be nice to throw in a brief refresher, maybe mix it in with actual composition to improve writing skills. On history: Ya know, you are indeed correct. I appologize for my unnessessary nationalism. I wish I'd had a better history background in school . . . On field of study: Based on y'all's input, I think some revision is in order. Perhaps those middle 2 years could be used to give the student an exposure to a few fields of study they're interested in, then they actually pick one in their 5th year. This gives them some exposure to at least 4 different fields of study, so they can see what they like to do before making a decision. Does this sound better? On the food: Lay off. Let the kids have the food they actually want. Why force the ever-changing nutritional ideal down their throats? Just limit the amount they're allowed to spend on food from the cafeteria (say, $7?) and have them put in X amount at the begining of the year for vending machines to limit their junk food intake, then key the whole thing to an ID card? I refuse to restrict sodas, though. After all, when/if they get into college, they'll have to practically live off caffene anyway. Am I right, fellow college people? Besides, I'll move the Phys Ed thing to every year and put health in there. . . er . . . somewhere. As I said, do forgive my ignorance in the field. This is why I'm after input to improve the system. Further, I do admit to seeing education as a service industry. Just the way a business student (or at least this one) sees the world. I never actually got into the teaching styles to be used. While I see no reason to change around deadlines or say "Here, spend 4 years in Algebra I so you can take its lessons to heart," I am rather aware of my ignorance in actually teaching others. Training I can do, teaching . . . not so much. Given my ignorance of teaching styles, I left things open on that. PERSONAL ANECDOTE AHEAD! As far as teaching styles go, my favorite from the student point of view was the one my Economics teacher employed: a sort of directed dialogue. I believe he referred to it as the Socratic method. Actually got students involved, got them thinking and responding. Of course, I also liked his policy of gearing the difficulty of his tests to how difficult the class was being. A class that was full of assholes and made class miserable would get taxed by having harder exams, while a class that paid attention and actually engaged in discussion would get more humane ones. Anyway On the math classes: I suppose y'all're right. After Algebra 2, I guess what you teke beyond that is more tied to what you want to do. And on a personal note, I suppose it's creul to force people through trig On 'slow' classes: I think not. Why handicap people by teaching them at a slower pace, providing them less, then sending them out as far behind as they went in, if not moreso. My sister is an example of what someone with a learning disability can manage (a relatively successful education major herself), and another friend of mine is a perfect example of how slowing things down can go wrong (HS graduate who flunked out of college because he can't do basic math or basic composition). Give students aid when they need it, don't seperate them and handicap them further. Ok, let's try a revised curriculum. And to our resident educator, how would you advise motivating the teachers to perform at their best instead of doing like some of the students and squeaking by on the least? I'm all ears, sir. Year 1 Pre-Algebra or Algebra 1 English Lit Civics/Political Science Physical Activity (Student's choice of activity) Physical Science Foriegn Languave (Student's choice of language) Practical Skill (Student's choice of skill) Year 2 Algebra 1 or Algebra 2 Basic composition w/ brief grammar refresher World History to Renissance (I know it's probably misspelled) Biology Physical Activity (Student's choice of activity) Foriegn Language (As last year) Fine Art (Student's choice of Art) Year 3 Algebra 2 or General Elective Advanced composition World History From Renissance to WWI Introductory Economics Physical Activity (Student's Choice of Activity) 2 Introductory courses in Field 1 (Semester courses) 2 Introductory courses in Field 2 (Semester courses) Year 4 General Elective World History since WWI World Geography Chemestry Physical Activity (Student's choice of activity) 2 Introductory courses in Field 3 (Semester courses) 2 Introductory courses in Field 4 (Semester courses) Year 5 (select Field of Study based on background in 4 fields) Physical Activity (Student's choice of activity) Health Composition elective (based on field of study) 2 General Electives 2 Field of Study courses Year 6 Physical Activity (Student's Choice of activity) 2 Field of Study courses 2 General Electives 2 Field of Study electives Better? |
| May the blessing of Our Lady of the Workshop be upon you. | |
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| Irockwayhard | Jul 21 2006, 08:20 PM Post #30 |
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Disgraced Dictator
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What state? I'm in KY. Are their other states implimenting the same measures? |
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"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein | |
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modeling and c) comprehension checks.

12:36 AM Jul 11