| Welcome to Exit Mundi Forums. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| The problem with School | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 20 2006, 03:23 PM (1,185 Views) | |
| piercehawkeye45 | Jul 21 2006, 09:03 PM Post #31 |
|
Franklin Pierce
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I live in Wisconsin but I bet a lot of states have this. What are your different fields of study Tech Junkie? I disagree with the food part. Kids will eat what the easiest and best tasting thing avaliable at the time. If you have something like make-your-own subs or somthing like that and mix it up twice a week with pizza or something like that, kids can get what they want to eat and still eat heathier. I'm not a health freak or anything but McDonalds or KFC everyday will not be good for students, espcically junior high and high schoolers who are growing and establishing eating habits. Gym will not cancel out anything either because 50% of my gym class just stood around doing nothing anyways. |
|
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed I'm America! I have found the enemy and he is us. | |
![]() |
|
| Tech Junkie | Jul 21 2006, 09:47 PM Post #32 |
![]()
Styx Ferryman
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I hadn't thought too much into what fields of study would be available. It would stand to reason that they would be more broad than an average college major, perhaps covering a general field instead of picking out a specific area in said field. Some examples would probably include things such as: Business Biology Earth Sciences (Physical sciences like geology and meteorology, perhaps some environmental science, that sort of thing) Physics/Astronomy Social Science (Economics, Psychology, Sociology, Anthropology) Criminal Justice Biology w/ Medicine Political Science Art Music Computer Science General Engineering Feel free to add broad areas that may fit. As for food, I never said other alternatives wouldn't be available. I have fond memories of the bakery from 2 of my 3 old high schools. Further, the school would naturally provide its own food to compete with the 3 fast food places. I figure the school provides some of the variety that the fast food places will inevitably lack. Perhaps reduce the number to 2 such places. (Perhaps a Wendys and a Taco Bell?) And you missed the point of the physical activity. This isn't some lame gym class where participation is optional. Think more along the lines of playing a sport for an hour a day, or an hour of aerobics, or of weight lifting. Sitting things out isn't an option unless you have a valid medical reason to. Figure it'll be added incentive that the student chooses what he'll be doing/playing/practicing for the year. |
| May the blessing of Our Lady of the Workshop be upon you. | |
![]() |
|
| Tom Joad | Jul 22 2006, 02:01 AM Post #33 |
|
Gap tooth so my dick's got to fit.
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I read about a school here in the inner-city Omaha (yes, there is an inner-city of Omaha) where they pay kids for their grades. They get more money for a higher grade. It is only available as a last resort for kids who have failed in any other system. I think it is quite new so I don't know if it is working or not. |
| |
![]() |
|
| piercehawkeye45 | Jul 22 2006, 02:10 AM Post #34 |
|
Franklin Pierce
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I have a feeling that will just end up being motivation to do bad then to do good to get paid. Stupid system, it will fail. |
|
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed I'm America! I have found the enemy and he is us. | |
![]() |
|
| 严加华 | Jul 22 2006, 04:41 AM Post #35 |
|
Magister Ludicrous
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
The problem here is the usual one (and, indeed, similar to the problem that drove me away from high tech): the people who need education have no idea of what they need. My students, for example, are always giving me "helpful" advice on how I could "improve" my classes and make them more "useful". Invariably the advice is utterly stupid because they (the ones who can't speak English, mind you, and who know nothing about languages nor education) simply don't know as much about the problem domain as does the polyglot (four languages now) with an M.A. in Education and an eye on a Ph.D. in Linguistics. For example in my writing courses I'm told that my classes are "too simple" because I'm focusing on getting them to write coherent sentences. They want tips on advanced composition, yet they're incapable of consistently writing sentences that contain verbs! They don't see that you need to have good bricks and good mortar to build solid walls. They want to jump straight to the walls, ignoring the building materials. I could very easily make these classes far more interesting and "relevant" for the students. And they would fail to accomplish anything in the end because interesting is not the same thing as necessary. Now, of course, as with everything, balance needs to be achieved. Only working on the fundamentals without showing a bigger picture is devastating to the learning process. But, sadly, the truth is this one simple, little fact: much of what you learn will bore you to death. Nothing you can do or say will change this. Students have to get the discipline from within or get it imposed from without.
I was just making sure that the point that it will cost money is made. I was pretty sure of what you were talking about, but it's easy to take the step of going from saying "just throwing money isn't enough" to "money isn't needed".
One word: Exxon. Another word: Worldcom. Another word: Enron. Business is no less corrupt and incompetent than government. It just tends to get found out and punished sooner. Let's say, however, that you have an Enron-like school. It gets caught and "punished" quickly. Your students are all still screwed.
Kill all fundamentalist Christians. They cause more problems to your educational system than do a million corrupt or incompetent administrators.
Manageable. My ideal size (24) is smack in the middle of this, so it's quite nice. 15 might not give quite enough interaction for my purposes, but I'm a fan of students helping and educating each other, so I actually prefer slightly larger class sizes than an average teacher. I've taught comfortably as high as 32, so 30 is fine as well. Past that and you start to see degradation. Another reason I like 24 is that it divides so nicely. You can divide the class into 2, 3, 4, 6 and 8 even-sized groups. This gives a lot of flexibility. Other class sizes restrict your flexibility some, but it's not that big a deal. (15, for example, gives you 3 or 5.)
Pay enough to get actually qualified teachers and they'll already know all these "steps".
This is tricky. The problem is that group dynamics are such that (in North American cultures in particular!) rewards breed jealousy, not inspiration. One of the things I truly enjoy in teaching Chinese students is that good students are looked up to by their classmates, not looked down upon. From my memories of high school and university this is emphatically not true in North American schools. I think the main cause of this is the western sense of entitlement that is bred into children at a very young age vs. the Chinese sense of face bred into children at a very young age. If you have ideas on how to encourage good progress, let me know.
The problem is that Phys.Ed. is typically an afterthought and typically really badly implemented in most schools. I point to my bit about having approached 400lbs. (396, to be precise.) I hated gym too, and I hated it usually because the Phys.Ed. teachers weren't educators. They were idiots. To do Phys.Ed. properly requires an education, not muscles. It requires knowledge of not only fitness, but also of nutrition, psychology, motivation and a whole host of other disciplines. Which cost money schools aren't willing to pay. Unless it involves a sports team. Which tends to be money wasted, rather than well-invested.
No. No choices whatsoever during high school. You learn an overview of everything that is feasible in that time. High school should not be a job preparation facility (and neither should university, but that's a whole 'nother rant).
No. What people want and what's good for them are two radically different things. This is true of education and is also true of food. I do not want students in my class in a post-McDonald's torpor. I want students who have adequate nutrition to be alert and able to learn. If you're going to cripple them with bad nutrition, go whole-hog and deny them education in the first place. Keep paying me my paycheque, however, because I shouldn't be the one punished for your decision.
There has never been any change in nutritional ideals, only in the mass media version of same. Nobody who has ever been actually educated in nutrition has ever really went off-message from:
The specifics have varied somewhat over the years, but the bottom line has always been those four points. Fast food undermines all four. They're typically highly caloric. They're the kind of food that generates an instant energy high followed by extended periods of torpor as the blood sugar crashes. The food is never fresh. They have hardly any meaningful vegetable content.
If you're living off caffeine, you're not managing your time properly. And, to be fair, I never managed my time well either. ;-) So some sort of caffeine or caffeine-analogue is likely needed at college. But sodas are the worst source of caffeine you can use. They boost your energy while sapping you of blood sugar. (You get, as with fast foods, a quick spike, then a drop. This builds to an addictive cycle quickly.) You want a decent source of caffeine that doesn't undermine your academics? Tea. (Not coffee!) Tea gives you the caffeine, but doesn't add the sugars that cause the dependency cycle in your blood sugar. Further, unlike coffee, which gives you caffeine and a whole host of other things that leave you jumpy, tea gives you caffeine and a whole host of other things that relax you. You're alert and relaxed at the same time.
But it isn't a service industry. Or, rather, it is. But not the kind of service industry you're envisioning. Think more like tourism than like accounting. The problem with looking at education (or tourism) like a typical service industry is that education (or tourism) relies far more on personality interactions than does a typical service industry. You are, in short, drawing invalid parallels.
An admirable teaching style suitable to any field in which opinion and/or analysis is relevant. And not every teacher can do this. And not every student can thrive in this. My view of teaching is ecclectic. I believe in no single "one true way". I believe in a toolbox approach. I'd be very suspicious of a car mechanic who only had one screwdriver or of a software developer who only used one programming language. Similarly I'd be very suspicious of any educator who advocates only using one style of teaching. A good teacher has a toolbox with many tools. The Socratic Method is one such tool (and a good one if used on the right people). How would it work on a kinaesthetic learner, though?...
I have to meet this teacher. I employ a similar metric, only my criterion is participation. If most of the class is actively participating, I'm merciful. If the class is sullen and unresponsive, I'm vicious. Very similar.
One would be to actually reward good teachers instead of teachers who've been around for longer. (Measuring that is left up to you. I'm not touching that with a ten-foot pole!) I can think of nothing worse for motivation than saying "it doesn't matter how good you are, that guy who's been here for ten years more than you gets the raise". Why bother putting the effort into excelling if that effort nets you nothing? Another idea would be to raise the bar. It is human nature to do the least amount of work possible for the maximal perceived rewards. Raise the standards (and provide the tools needed to reach those standards!) and then let the teachers squeak by on the "least". Yet another idea would be gratitude. Administrators tend to treat their teachers like chattel and worse. The occasional, heart-felt "thank you" is often motivation enough. Finally, and this may be the biggest one, get the Hell out of our way! Don't use opinion polls, media scare reports and every other two-bit distraction to make our lives a living Hell. We are the educators. We are the domain experts. Tell us what goals you want and let us get there. A good boss in any field is the one who says "I want X by Y time". A bad boss in any field is the one who says "I want X by Y time using Z in manners A, B and C." Guess which is most common in the field of education?.... |
LC Sez:
| |
![]() |
|
| Tech Junkie | Jul 22 2006, 05:32 PM Post #36 |
![]()
Styx Ferryman
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Continuing on lazy students: Nice points, sir. The fundamentals are often dull. Of course, said dull fundamentals should be out of the way by high school. Some subjects are dull *cough*Math*cough*. I suppose that can't be helped, beyond finding some means of making them interesting. (Hint: Talking really fast and repeating yourself frequently isn't it. That borders on hypnosis. My College Algebra teacher did that. Spent 20 minutes on a problem that the sharper students had in less than 2, and the slow kids in 5-10. The only time I ever fell asleep in class. . .) On Administrators: You left out Arthur-Anderson Seriously, though, what sort of people should administer a school. It stands to reason that they should know what their employees do, hence the background in education. It also seems reasonable that they know how to run an organization. I'm not sure who to put in, really. Background checks are in order. . . On Fundamentalist Christians: Drop off the word "christian" and you may have me agreeing with ya. Religious fundamentalists as a whole are detrimental to education. Let's just keep them away from this school's administration and lesson plans. Religion is fine, just don't ram it down other people's throats. Same goes for atheism: don't ram it down people's throats. On teacher salaries: Basic business policy here- find the most qualified individual with the most successful track record. gotta make sure to get your money's worth. And as for increasing salaries based on success, why isn't it already like that? Only thing that I'm concerned about with this would be teachers inflating their student's accomplishments to improve their salaries. How would one prevent this? On encouraging students: I was a nerd through elemantary school that steadily changed into a geek through high school. Students tend to mock others for progress. This is a particularly bad problem, and one hard to overcome. Well, It could be counterbalanced by finding ways to bring shame to those that screw up. Make those that do poorly look like morons, assuming they're screwing up on purpose, as opposed to being people that actually need help. Given that psychology is more of a hobby of mine (esp. Abnormal Psych), I'm not sure how to go about this. Perhaps it'll come up later in my education. On PE: Agreed about hte PE 'teachers'. That's why I figured on letting the students just work at one sport and condition themselves for it. A decent coach knows what they need for the sport they're coaching. My HS weigh training coach, for example, knew the fitness stuff, the nutrition stuff (even if I didn't listen :P) and definitely the motivation stuff. Of course, my old JROTC instructor was better at motivation, but he was a retired Army Major (Infantry, if memory serves), so . . . On the "job prep facility": Where, exactly, should someone be prepared for a job? I don't know about you, but I like my employees to know their stuff when I hire em, not have to send them to training so they can function in a work environment. That said, I see High School as a College/University preparation facility. That's why I wanted them to have a choice. This way, they get a better idea of what they want to do before they get there. Just having a general background in everything isn't enough to help make that decision. Granted, some people make a decision even with that little knowledge (basically anyone that declared a major from day 1 at their college [like me]), but it would be nice if they knew what they were getting into. On food: *SIGH* You're really persistant, ya know that? Fine, no fast food. But we're keeping the vending machines (pre paid) and the soda machines. How about throwing in juice machines, gatorade machines (no powerade. that stuff's horrible), and tea. No, no tea machines. Let's offer it as an option with meals. Maybe offer a variety of teas. (I prefer my Earl Grey ) Since there's no fast food, let's eliminate the spending limit. Can we at least keep the bakery? I want my cinnamon twists, donuts, and those other nice bread things
Sidenote: My diet's low veggie (can't stand the taste). Course, I don't eat much anyway. (probably less than 2000 calories/day, or around there at best) I could stand to exercise more, though. (233 lbs) On caffene: Tea is good. Sodas are OK for quick bursts. Coffee. . . bleh! Chocolate. . . was left unmentioned On that great teacher: Mt. Tiner, business department, Economics teacher, Three Rivers Community College, Poplar Bluff, Missouri. More on teachers: I think we may be on the same page on administrative involvement in the education process. Administrators would be saying "You have 9 months to teach Algebra 1. Just pick the books and supplies you need and get it done. Try to stay within your budget." Being courteous to your employees, even encouraging, is generally a good idea. Paying and faciliting success is just good business. As for setting a moderately high bar, no problem. I suppose some sort of final for the course that's administered by someone other than the teacher would work. Tell the teacher what's actually on the test (the type of stuff, not the actual questions) and have them prepare students for it. Having the teacher prepare the students for the next level of said class (if it has one) wouldn't hurt either, if said teacher has to teache the more advanced course as well. Students that already know part of what they're supposed to learn can make the teacher's job easier. `Course, this is just what I can come up with on the spur of the moment. Still open to advice, comments, opinions, and suggestions. |
| May the blessing of Our Lady of the Workshop be upon you. | |
![]() |
|
| piercehawkeye45 | Jul 22 2006, 06:02 PM Post #37 |
|
Franklin Pierce
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I'm assuming you've never had a good math teacher.
I'm on the same boat as you [][][]. But what do they exactly do in education? I'm just wondering.
This could be America's schools biggest problem. Lets face the facts; a majority of the "cool" people in middle and high school don't exactly get the best grades. This makes other people who want to be cool follow that and also get bad grades. Don't argue with me cause I've seen it. I like that suggestion though. I doubt it would work, especially in Junior High because kids tend to tell their parents and parents think their kids are angels and it just goes from there. If you could find a way to make them looks a moron, without giving them good attention that they want, and without actually insulting them, that method might work.
NO!. High School is NOT a college preparation facility. Some people don't go to college. It should prepare kids for life in general not college.
Actually you should encourage other sports, notice how the best athletes are usually good at more than one sport. Training for different sports allows you to train with more variety, which allows you to become more athletic all together. Training for one sport will not get you as far as training for multiple sports. And don't give me the "if you spend more time on one sport they will be really good at that sport, but if they spend equal time on three they will be ok at three" because that isn't true at all and it is closer the opposite. Every sport builds off another. |
|
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed I'm America! I have found the enemy and he is us. | |
![]() |
|
| 严加华 | Jul 23 2006, 01:52 AM Post #38 |
|
Magister Ludicrous
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Oh boy do I have bad news for you! I am, as I said, casting my eyes in the direction of a Ph.D. There's lots of dull fundamentals between me and that goal....
Definitely not! That's just bad teaching. Which is amplified and rewarded in horrific educational systems like yours.
My objection wasn't to someone who knows how to run an organisation. It was to the whole "run it like a business" meme. I know that in America in particular (and, sadly, this concept is infecting the whole damned world slowly but surely!) business is the only organisation that many people can envision, but seriously: there are hundreds of different kinds of organisations. Businesses are only one of them. And they're not necessarily the most efficient at any given task. (The main clash is the one between long-term interests vs. short-term gains. Businesses are focused on the latter often at the expense of the former.)
In your country there is only one fundamentalist organisation causing problems: Christianity. When I see anything as damaging as the whole anti-evolution crap coming from any other religious group impacting your education, I'll broaden the term. Right now, however, it is Christians all the way down.
Two words: trade unions.
Teachers don't test their own students.
Two dangers. You've already highlighted the first: you may do this to someone who needs help, not derision. The second is that it will likely backfire. The bad kids will just become badder and even more looked-up to. The problem is cultural, not school-based. The USA (and Canada, to a slightly lesser extent) has a long history of disdaining educated people and glorifying the stupid rebel. This is why I will never, ever teach students in the USA or Canada.
The odd thing is that I think it's the employers who have the responsibility to do job training. I'm tired of huge businesses getting a free ride from (my!) taxes by basically treating the educational system as a free job training centre. It fosters even large amounts of corporate irresponsibility and fewer links to community giving us such monstrosities as Enron, et al.
I respectfully disagree. You cannot make a meaningful choice until you've been exposed to all feasible fields. I can even give you a direct personal experience for this. I wound up in high tech for twelve years until I just couldn't take the bullshit anymore. Then I found out I really enjoyed education and linguistics. Now had I been exposed to these latter two in high school....
If you're going to have vending machines, especially with sodas, just give up and throw your students out. You've already betrayed them at the deepest, most profound level possible. Why bother pretending to teach?
School is not a restaurant. It is a place of learning. Everything in it should be oriented toward learning. The food schedule should be as diverse and as mandatory as the learning schedule. This means there's room for the occasional bready thing, but it should not be the staple by any means.
If you're in high school and already at 233lbs, boy oh boy do I have bad news for you. I was in high school and only at 180lbs. (And I'm a REALLY big boy! My shoulder width alone is over 50% larger than most people my height.) My peak weight was 396lbs. Keep up what you're doing and you'll be where I was. (For reference I'm now ~250 lbs.) It's not where you want to be. Just trust me on that.
Strange, then, that businesses in particular don't grok this point.
The problem of testing is always the big knocker. Too many teachers (usually at the demands of administrators, students and parents) teach to the test instead of teaching the material. My own approach to the test would be to tell the teacher "this is your textbook -- the students are responsible for all information and techniques outlined in this textbook at every level of Bloom's taxonomy". |
LC Sez:
| |
![]() |
|
| Tech Junkie | Jul 23 2006, 05:35 PM Post #39 |
![]()
Styx Ferryman
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
On food: So, lemme get this straight, no food students may actually enjoy if is just happens to be unhealthy according to the current definition of the term unhealthy? I'm trying to cut these people a break. And no, I wasn't 233 in high school (I was 214 in my senior year). I'm 233 now, 4 years after graduation (Yeah, I know, I know. I learned the lesson of 'don't screw around' in college . . . at the expense of keeping me in it an extra year and forcing me into a year off) at 6'. *sigh* However, perhaps the contents of said vending machines are negociable. What shouldn't be allowed? Can we at least keep the tortilla chips? How about the gum? And why not give the students a choice of beverages? Let them take their health into their own hands. On Dull fundamentals: It appears you have a point I'd totally overlooked. Especially ocnsidering I too have a few boring fundamentals ahead of me. . . *glances at BBA an MBA* And yes, I've never had a good math teacher. In fact, the 2 worst teachers I've ever had outside of elementary school taught math. On business: I do see your points on short-sightedness, and they frustrate me to no end. I mean, it stands to reason that a business should be interested in it's long term profit, not the next quick fix. Bad enough our government runs things that way. Perhaps a better way to phrase that meme to suit my (and likely your) ideal would be "run it like a business should be run, if the people at the top weren't short-sighted dolts." Short sightedness is what gets businesses crushed, even a student like me can see it. A good business rewards success and penalizes/learns from failure. A good business rewards good employees and fires bad ones. Am I the only one in the business field that thinks this way? On the cultural bias against intelegent: Believe me, nothing irks me more. Leaves those of us that were at the bottom of the social ladder in High school despite our intelegence just bitter enough to laugh at those that were at the top of that ladder as they bag our groceries and serve our fast food. This is one of, if not the, worst problems in education, alongside parents that refuse to believe their kids can do wrong, let alone dicipline them. On Job training: You're right, of course. But from a business perspective, why knock a good thing ON college prep: If High school is supposed to prepare people for life, it does a piss poor job of it. All it seems to teach is that stupid people rise to the top, atheletes are king, and stupid social games are the way. It also teaches that hard work is overrated, accomplishments in your actual work mean nothing, and that your actions generally don't have consequences. You don't learn how to speak before a group, do manual labor, raise a kid, maintain a job, or even file for welfare. This myth about High School preparing people for life needs to die, or it needs to live up to that reputation. Until then, what purpose does it serve, other than to prepare people for either work or college? Work, College, or Unemployment are the only places to go from high school. I'd prefer to encourage college. On Choice: Why keep students from choosing things? They'll get to in the workplace (to an extent) and they'll definitely get to in college. May as well give them a year or 2 to get used to the idea. However, maybe the field of study thing isn't that sharp an idea. People tend to do better at things they're interested in, though, so the choice stays. More electives then, I suppose, to replace the field of study thing . . . More on food: How can one orient a cafeteria to learning? What, teach them that others know what's best for them by taking away their ability to decide for themselves? I see no point in taking away choices. This doesn't foster thought in any way, beyond providing the nutritional basis for said thought. What good is the ability to think and dscide if you're not taught to use it? This is why communal societies in general disturb me, as does the idea that non-communal societies are somehow wrong. I believe both are equally valid, though I have a preference on which one to take part in. And how can something be both diverse and mandatory? Doesn't "mandatory" anything generally eliminate choice, while "diversity" encourages it? Do explain your meaning, as it's likely I didn't get it. On weight: Trust me, I've got enough examples of what happens when your caloric intake exceeds your expendature. I like to call them my cousins. On the testing: This is where your hands-off policy for adminstation takes over. There needs to be some way to avoid teaching the test while avoiding the other pitfall of not really teaching what you're supposed to be. Progress should be measurable, but there should be some means of keeping the measurement from being tampered with. |
| May the blessing of Our Lady of the Workshop be upon you. | |
![]() |
|
| piercehawkeye45 | Jul 23 2006, 06:16 PM Post #40 |
|
Franklin Pierce
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I suggested subs, does anyone object against that?
Your missing the point, there is a difference between taking away someone’s ability to decide for themselves and steering them clear from something they will surely hurt themselves with. If a parent doesn’t let a child play on a freeway is that taking away the child’s ability to decide for itself?
That isn’t the school’s fault, it’s society’s. High school is just a game to gain as much popularity as possible. Just because the social ladder is different in high school then it is in life doesn’t mean that high school failed at preparing you for life. It gave you a chance to gain social skills and to be comfortable around people and if someone doesn’t take advantage of that, it is there own fault. This is coming from someone who was a football captain and didn’t have any popularity because I was shy my first three years of high school. One thing I agree with your post is the part about it teaching that hard work is overrated. That is why college dropouts and unemployment rates are so high. Learning that hard work pays off in high school benefits society as a whole a lot better than when people are in their twenties with a family to support. By the way, it is impossible for high school to prepare you for all those things; it should prepare you with ways to find out how to prepare for them.
Wouldn’t teaching the textbook then basing the test of what you teach work? |
|
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed I'm America! I have found the enemy and he is us. | |
![]() |
|
| 严加华 | Jul 23 2006, 11:58 PM Post #41 |
|
Magister Ludicrous
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
First, as I said before (and now I'm beginning to feel what Dr. Jim must have felt like with that Peak Oil guy), the definition of "healthy food" from actual, you know, nutritionists, has not changed anywhere near as markedly as you seem to think. A "healthy meal", as designed by a nutritionist in the 1950s would not be considered an "unhealthy meal" by a nutritionist today. Perhaps today's nutritionist would tweak a few things (fibre content in particular), but there would be no wholesale redefinition. Look away from pop culture when you read about nutrition. It will kill you. Literally. And as for letting them take their own health into their hands, sure. I'm all for it. After all individual freedom is far more important than is our duties as educators. While we're at it, let them take their own education into their hands as well. Because if you're going to let them eat the carbohydrate-and-(trans)fat-laced foods as meals, you're already undermining any hope of decent learning. Why not go whole-hog and let them screw up their entire future?
All businesses preach this. Now find me one that puts it into practice....
Because it's damaging in the long haul? Oops. There's that whole "long term thinking" problem again.
<cynic>And this is a failure to prepare people for life in precisely which way again?</cynic>
Hmmm.... Let me relate the story of how I left high tech and see if this, too, is life preparation or not. My company, Entrust, had a big release coming up. (Code-named "Banff".) A certain block of features was needed on this big release, and all of the project management-fu pointed to a release date late in the year (November or December? This was over six years ago now, so I don't recall precise dates anymore.) This did not suit the suits, however, who needed, for some bizarre reason or another, the release to happen by late August. So they came up with a bonus scam (sic): if the project gets out the door by their fantasy time, the whole development team would just pack up and head off for an all-expenses-paid trip to Banff. (See the clever tie-in with the code name? Yeah. Pretty damned stupid.) Well, the marketing staff were all gung-ho over this. And even the less experienced developers were saying "Yeah! Let's do it!". Me, on the other hand, a veteran of many idiotic campaigns to "improve productivity" -- I leaned over to the "approachable" VP of our department and said "this is doomed to fail". Stupidly on my part, I had neglected to find out whose plan this was before critiquing it. It was the brainchild of that same VP. My prediction, as pronounced to that VP, was that they were going to get a surge of productivity as developers gung-hoed their way through. But then it was going to become clear that the project could not be delivered in that time. Why? Because we were already firing on all cylinders and all estimates based on that had the schedule ending far later in the year. So once it became clear that the project couldn't possibly be delivered, and therefore the trip to Banff with it, staff morale would fall. We would, in the long haul, wind up with lower productivity, not greater. I was waved off (and this was the first sign of the impending personal disaster). Then everything went exactly as I predicted it would. Huge surge of productivity. Failure of morale. Productivity drops to lower levels than when it started. Project slipped -- not from the fantasy August deadline but from the realistic deadline. It slipped to APRIL of the next year, in fact. (I had predicted May.) Now here's the fun part. My team -- the toolkit team -- delivered on time. I mean delivered to the fantasy August deadline. Hell, we delivered so well that we were temporarily seconded to other groups to help them out. (This, too, didn't work as Brooks noted in the '70s in The Mythical Man-Month.) Yet I had made an enemy by predicting the failure of the project. And that enemy blamed me, one of the few people who actually did deliver on time, as the main reason the project failed. Why? Because I was a "negative Nellie" who infected others with my negativity. That was the death spiral to my career in that company (and the final straw for me and high tech in general). The VP who came up with the misconcieved bonus scam? He got huge bonuses. The guy whose team delivered everything on time but had the misfortune to correctly predict what was going to happen company-wide? He was driven out of the company six months later. So, given that, what exactly is wrong with the preparation you're seeing? It seems to fit real life like a glove.
Because they lack even the most basic information from which to make an informed choice?
By having it supply foods which don't actively damage the learning process. That's easy. Carb-and-fat torpor is just so bad on so many levels for education it's scary.
Diversity is not a function of choice. It is a function of variety. If you "choose" to eat a Big Mac every day, there is no diversity whatsoever. If you're required to eat different meals every day from a variety of sources, you have a diverse diet. That's pretty clear to me. What's the problem? |
LC Sez:
| |
![]() |
|
| Tech Junkie | Jul 24 2006, 01:33 PM Post #42 |
![]()
Styx Ferryman
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I think I'm getting the meal thing. Basically, provide a healthy meal, but keep what that meal consists of as a variable (within the field of healthy choices). I suppose this is acceptable. Tell me if I'm envisioning the correct thing: A la carte lunch, where the student selects one item for each part of the meal from within a healthy range of selections. Drink Options include soda (a variety of them), various teas, milk, or bottled water. No vending machines. Fine. I still think the students should be able to grab something to drink between clases. Gotta keep hydrated, right? How about leaving the same options as found at lunch in the drink machines, with the addition of sports drinks? Is this acceptable? Just trying to find some way to keep the students, educators, parents, and nutritionists happy. On businesses not practicing what they preach: That was kind of my point. It frustrates me to no end that people in business (and government) are so painfully short sighted. There must be some way to combat this. Unless I actually get that CEO position I dream of (And I figure that's 20 years off bare minimum), I can't exactly do it alone. Hey, I'm 20, about to turn 21. I can still be idealistic, right? On your last job: A perfect example of the problem. However, your point is prooven. Life is often as f**ked up as high school. On what High School is: Decidedly not job prep. Given that not all students go to college (their loss. Sad if they didn't have the chance. If they did and rejected it, foolish*). Weak as life prep, given that the people that sat at the top of the social ladder (or rather, a substantial proportion thereof) have those wonderful jobs that involve "Drive around to the first window, please" while some of the ones at the bottom are off making our games and writing the software that makes the world go `round. So, what function does it serve? I know it has one, otherwise there'd be no reason to do it. I suppose Mr. Educator is correct in that it's there to provide a well-rounded education. (Ok, I like the sound of that. You're Mr. Educator from now on) On Testing: Not bad, Mr. Pierce. Perhaps said system shouldn't be tampered with too much. Just throw in a test at semester and a final administered to measure progress. . . get teacher input on what can be reasonably taught in a semester (despite my misgivings that, as humans, they'd try and set the bar a bit low for their own benifit. Not too low, just low enough to be plausible). Is this acceptable? I'm appreciating the input, and I'm slowly but surely getting this. *Why do I have the feeling someone will pull out some sad anecdote about how someone had to refuse college to take care of the family farm or a dying aunt or something . . . |
| May the blessing of Our Lady of the Workshop be upon you. | |
![]() |
|
| piercehawkeye45 | Jul 24 2006, 06:09 PM Post #43 |
|
Franklin Pierce
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
That isn't really rejecting college, but an extenuating circumstance. With the life prep issue, education and life preparation are too different issues and shouldn't be clumped together. The people who are working at McDonalds for their whole life didn't get an education, how popular they were in high school has no part in it. The same goes the other way, for all the "nerds" that got a great education will of course get a better job than the people who didn't try. The thing is, if there are two people with equal education. One is an outgoing person who is comfortable around other people and the other is a shy person who isn't comfortable around people. Who is going to get the job? That's why social skills learned in high school are so important. The people in the top of the social ladder will most likely be more successful at life than the people at the bottom of the social ladder assuming they are at the same education level. |
|
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed I'm America! I have found the enemy and he is us. | |
![]() |
|
| Ownthink | Jul 25 2006, 01:40 AM Post #44 |
|
Struggling Scientist
![]() ![]() ![]()
|
The best article ever. http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Nov2004/everton1104.html |
![]() |
|
| 严加华 | Jul 25 2006, 01:43 AM Post #45 |
|
Magister Ludicrous
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Fine except for the sodas. And why bottled water? It's far more likely to poison you than is tap water. Refrigerated tap water is just fine. (That is what 99%+ of bottled waters are anyway!)
You know, when I went to school we had this thing called a "fountain". It permitted us to hydrate whenever the Hell we wanted by serving up fresh, clear, cold water.
A proper role for high school is to provide a foundation of knowledge and thinking for students to base their futures upon, no matter where that future leads them. Sadly, however, due mostly to parental and political stupidity, high school cannot serve this vital purpose. (Parents are threatened when their children can spot bullshit arguments, you see, as are the powers that be.) So increasingly high schools have become first daycares for advanced children and then, ultimately, jails. |
LC Sez:
| |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
|
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Politics and Religion · Next Topic » |





![]](http://z2.ifrm.com/static/1/pip_r.png)





) Since there's no fast food, let's eliminate the spending limit. Can we at least keep the bakery? I want my cinnamon twists, donuts, and those other nice bread things

12:36 AM Jul 11