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Stem Cell veto; Thoughts?
Topic Started: Jul 27 2006, 05:21 PM (752 Views)
Tech Junkie
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Styx Ferryman
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What people conveniently leave out in those "X amount of Americans don't have health insurance" figure: Some people that don't have it see it as an unnessessary expendature. For example, people in their 20s that figure they're still healthy, or people that think they have strong immune systems.

Tangental thought: What about those of us that have rather hardy immune systems and fast recovery times? Is there anything wrong with not burdening the system with unnessessary doctor visits when we have a little tickle in our throats? Waiting till something's actually wrong before seeking treatment?



Conditions that are not emergency-care worthy:

Colds
Mild alergies
Minor cuts, scrapes, and bruises
Inconvenient conditions

Conditions that are:

Severe blood loss
Severed anything
Severe alergies
Life-threatening conditions
May the blessing of Our Lady of the Workshop be upon you.
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Tom Joad
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I concur Tech Junkie. I am actually considering getting into economics because of your inspired writing. Medicine just seemed too boring.
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Chris Larkin
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Tom Joad
Aug 8 2006, 10:34 PM
If in 2010 there are 100 million people in the US who can't pay for healthcare then maybe the health companies will have to lower their prices.  My family has terrible healthcare because my father owns his own business, but I'm not complaining.  When you have free healthcare you abuse it.  You go to the doctor's when you don't need to and you buy medicine that you don't need.

Really? And so, having no healthcare at all for millions of people is better than running the risk of people 'abusing' the system?

I don't know if anyone saw 30 Days, the program with Morgan Spurlock. In one episode, Morgan and his girlfriend tried to live for a month on the minimum wage of $5.15/hour. Because of the hard manual labour Morgan has to do for his money, he ends up with injuries to his arm, and, on going to the doctors, is charged several hundred dollars for tratment that amounts to a bandage and some pills. The total cost of a few (entirely necessary) trips to the doctor leaves them several hundred dollars poorer than when they started the month, despite both working full time. This is the sort of situation that people find themselves in - because the cost of healthcare of prohibitive, they simply don't get any, and they end up suffering in the long term.

I'm not saying that you should adopt a nationalised healthcare system in the USA (it would never happen, anyway), but healthcare that is affordable should be a basic right for humans.

And another thing... that minimum wage is offensively low. In this country, a 16 year old must be paid $5.73/hour (£3), and a 21 year old would get $9.26/hour (£4.85). I don't see how it is possible to live on $5.15/hour. Notice that the minimum wage in the USA has not been increased since 1997, despite increased prices. I know the argument that a high minimum wage would mean greater unemployment, but I don't really buy that one. We don't have a significantly higher unemplymenr rate here, despite the far larger minimum wage. I reckon this is all just big business influencing the government, out to make the richer richer, and keep the poor poor.

Anyway, I've dragged this from Stem Cells to a rant on the Minimum Wage, so back to the topic...
A squatter's made a mural of a Mexican girl,
With fifteen cans of spray paint in a chemical swirl.
She's standing in the ashes at the end of the world,
Four winds blowing through her hair.
- Bright Eyes
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严加华
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Magister Ludicrous
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Tech Junkie
Aug 9 2006, 10:45 PM
Conditions that are not emergency-care worthy:

Colds
Mild alergies
Minor cuts, scrapes, and bruises
Inconvenient conditions

Conditions that are:

Severe blood loss
Severed anything
Severe alergies
Life-threatening conditions

I believe that this is what is called a "straw man".

Nowhere did I, for example, advocate emergency treatment for a scratchy throat (and, in fact, directly stated the opposite). I did, however, advocate regular visits to the doctor for PREVENTATIVE CARE. You know: go to the doctor every six months for a check-up. He looks under the hood, makes sure the fluids are all topped off, ....

OK. I mean he checks your vitals, checks for the more common easily-missed problems (like, say, prostate cancer, etc.), asks you about any problems you may have had in the past six months, etc. You see, doing this? It is an "investment" (if you want it in economic terms). It's a low-cost item done regularly that can (and really, it does -- just look at the health stats on countries like Sweden and compare them to the USA for evidence) catch serious illnesses before they require expensive treatments. Having this in place has several benefits to society:

  • Your society's overall health is better. This leads to a more productive society.
  • Some very nasty communicable diseases get caught flat and removed because, you know, people can actually afford to go to the doctor for diagnosis and treatment. That kid in your class with the sniffles? You know, the one from the wrong side of the tracks? He could have something a lot more serious than a cold....
  • The profiteering from pharmaceutical companies is stopped dead in its tracks since diseases tend to get caught before you need all the fancy (and expensive) treatments. This allows R&D to focus on more long-term things like, you know, cures for diseases.

I know that talking to an American about socialised health care is like talking to a brick wall. But still, I urge you to look up the WHO numbers. America's health care is one of the most shameful things for such a wealthy country to have. And what's funniest? The very victims of its health care "system" are its strongest supporters.
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Tech Junkie
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Technically not a straw man, as 'abusing the system' has been mentioned. Just not by you :P


Anyway. . .


While your argument about preventative care is a good one, as in another thread, I contest the idea that only a socialized medical system can/will create a physically healthy nation. I'm not saying the system as is is perfect. Quite the opposite (which was the point of my other thread). I'm just saying that the same solution doesn't necessessarily work in all situations (to avoid confusion, that solution is socialized medicine. Being a Canadian, though, you already know how that system can go wrong, as you're pointed out).

Quick minimum wage note: Argument from Lack of Imagination, anyone? Sure, depending on where you live, $5.15 per hour may or may not be enough to live off of. Say you live in San Francisco or NYC. That wouldn't be a reasonable wage to survive on at the lowest level (Of course, the states where said cities are have higher minimum wages, but let's ignore that for the moment). In other places, it's a perfectly comfortable wage to live off. Depends on the local economy.

We'll not get into the job shortages a minimum wage creates if set below market equilibrium. If the minimum wage is set below equilibrium (example: $5.15 an hour in Houston, but the lowest wages in my old neighborhood are currently in the $7/hr range)





Ok, sorry for hijacking the thread. Y'all get back on stem cells now! (For medical systems, go to the other thread, kay?)
May the blessing of Our Lady of the Workshop be upon you.
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Irockwayhard
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Find me a community where a family can live on 5.15 an hour.
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
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Dr. Jim
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I lived on 5.15 an hour all through highschool, college, and then I got a raise to about 6 dollars an hour. It was nice.
It's all about knowing how to save, and what to buy.

Though one time I had the disease called "mono." and I went to the doctor because I had giant lumps in my throat. It was ten minutes long, he said "I dont know whats wrong, I can't do anything." and I left with a FIVE MOTHER EFFING HUNDRED DOLLAR BILL.
Five hundred dollars to tell me he couldn't do anything. I could have asked a hobo for five bucks.
...Matt was no exception to this. When he stood in the street and noticed his chest started to really hurt again, he made the decision to look down. He screamed like a grown man would scream when that grown man sees a laser burning his chest, and that is like a little girl...
-From Super Naked Moose Man
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Tech Junkie
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People in this town (which shall remain unnamed, but is in Southeast Missouri, which is admitedly known for a sucky economy) get by just fine on $5.15 an hour. Some even have the extra to blow at the really trashy strip club just outside city limits. Just a matter of budgeting as Doc said.
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Tom Joad
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You don't have alot to waste if you are being paid minimum wage, but should you? It is MINIMUM WAGE.

A lady at my work makes the same as me ,$3.15 an hour plus tips (equals out to be about $6 an hour) and she manages to have a good sized home a sweet van and 3 kids. You just have to be careful with your cash.
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Irockwayhard
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Scraping by on minumun wage and living on minimum wage are different. And I won't get into the human injustices imposed by living on minimum wage (we've done that enough). And these people are surely getting federal aid - i.e. Welfare, WIC, Medicare/Medicaid, EBT - most of which, if I'm not mistaken, most of you are hostile toward or opposed to.
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
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Dr. Jim
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If you're on minimum wage then you cannot get help such as welfare.
Scrapping by is living. Anything that dosen't involve you dying is living. Unless by living you mean wasting or getting things you don't need.
...Matt was no exception to this. When he stood in the street and noticed his chest started to really hurt again, he made the decision to look down. He screamed like a grown man would scream when that grown man sees a laser burning his chest, and that is like a little girl...
-From Super Naked Moose Man
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Tom Joad
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In America, why should people be poor? You get a free education, as long as you aren't a complete idiot you can find a job, so why should anybody with a reasonable backgroung not make enough to live?
If your parents looked you up and didn't let you go to school you have an excuse. If you have a disease that keeps you form working you have an excuse. I'm just talking about a person from a middle to lower class background, I really can't think why they have to be poor so maybe soembody can tell me.
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严加华
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Magister Ludicrous
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Tom Joad
Aug 15 2006, 09:19 AM
In America, why should people be poor? You get a free education, as long as you aren't a complete idiot you can find a job, so why should anybody with a reasonable backgroung not make enough to live?

Here's a course in basic mathematics, Tom. I'm not trying to talk down to you, it's just that here the math leads to conclusions that aren't obvious.

Using round numbers, if the unemployment rate in the USA is at 5%, if you take 20 people from your country at random, odds are good that one of them is unemployed. If you take a hundred, 5 are unemployed. If you take a thousand, 50 are unemployed.

The reasons for their unemployment can be highly varied. For example from 1987-89 I was unemployed and actually had to use welfare to live. What happened? The economy in Saskatchewan went into a tailspin and unemployment shot through the roof. When I was applying for a job as a damned GAS ATTENDENT I was facing 30 other people applying for the same job, most of whom had experience in the job. Since there was only one job, most people -- even those with experience and references -- didn't get the job. You can imagine where I, fresh out of school, sat with it.

People are poor because of a wide variety of reasons. Yes, a great many of them are poor because they're lazy, they're foolish or some combination thereof. But a great many are poor for no fault of their own. They didn't have the opportunities needed to advance.

Now, in my case I broke out of the welfare culture. (It can be a trap.) But had the welfare cycle not been there at all? I'd have been a criminal. The desperate poor tend to go that route because if it's a choice of not stealing/whatever and not eating or stealing/whatever and eating, guess which wins every time?
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DirkNL
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Aug 15 2006, 02:34 PM
Now, in my case I broke out of the welfare culture.  (It can be a trap.)  But had the welfare cycle not been there at all?  I'd have been a criminal.  The desperate poor tend to go that route because if it's a choice of not stealing/whatever and not eating or stealing/whatever and eating, guess which wins every time?

Stealing, and guess what happens next : the police cycle.

Once they get caught, they go into jail, get out,m steal again, get in ,etc. etc. etc. and live f***ed up lives. I consider myself lucky (I'm from the upper working class, got two working parents and no sisters/brothers and we don't need to live from welfare), but there are hundreds in my city which are caught in the police cycle. Most of them also do drugs, but yes, poverty can even be a big problem in small, high-tech countries like here in the Netherlands.

-Dirk

P.S, topic is dying I think
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Irockwayhard
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Dr. Jim
Aug 14 2006, 08:52 PM
If you're on minimum wage then you cannot get help such as welfare.
Scrapping by is living. Anything that dosen't involve you dying is living. Unless by living you mean wasting or getting things you don't need.

What!? Welfare and Federal and state aid qualifications are based on standards of need, net and gross income, children in the home etc. Explain.

And wow..."Unless by living you mean wasting or getting things you don't need." I love compassionate people.
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
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