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| Seperation of Church and State?; Uh huh | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 2 2006, 05:15 AM (780 Views) | |
| Irockwayhard | Aug 7 2006, 02:07 PM Post #16 |
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Disgraced Dictator
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Saul (Paul) didn't write any of the gospels, as we know it. My point was that the New Testament, regardless of who wrote it, how or why they wrote it and whether or not the people they quote actually said what the authors claim, is a compelation that does preach caring for the poor, giving to the needy, being humble, etc. It does preach separation of church and state (Matthew 22:15-22). Sure there are some vague references that could be interpereted as 'pro-life' etc., but I'm okay with people believing that way based on personal morality. I don't believe in the infallibility of the bible, and I question whether I have a faith daily, but regardless, I support the christian faith, in that it is ultimatley a religion of peace (Christianitly = emphasis on the New Covenant, non-violent) and 'social-welfare'. We can't blame the religion and it's followers as awhole for the Fundamentalist Christian leaders who exploit the religion for political power. |
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"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein | |
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| Tech Junkie | Aug 7 2006, 02:44 PM Post #17 |
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Styx Ferryman
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Seperation of Church and State. Good idea, but often leads to some . . . er . . . interesting things. I, for one, am glad that religious organization X, Y, or Z doesn't run the country. I'm also glad our government can't force us to follow religion V or W. However, some things do kinda irk me. No prayer in schools: Reasonable. School-led prayer is out. However, when said school sees some guy praying for the smarts or luck to pass a test, or rounding up some friends of his for the same, they have no right to interfere. Let whomever pray to whatever wherever. No harm done. Not like they're government employees or something (or worse, televangelists). "You Can't Legislate Morality": My Bullshit Detector is blaring at this one. Usually, the people saying this are later pushing to have their view of the world shoved down someone's throat. All laws are based in morality. It's generally considered immoral to shoot your neighbor in the head for looking at your wife wrong, for example. Who cares where the idea that this act is wrong came from? On the other hand, certain 'moral' legislation makes no sence. Take prostitution for example. To quote George Carlin, "Selling is legal. F*cking is legal. Why isn't selling f*cking legal?" I can't figure this one out. Why in the blue hell is it illegal to sell something it's perfectly legal to give away? Just chipping in my 2 meseta. (Got nothing better to do. My car's in the shop, so my move's been delayed. I should be somewhere in Arkansas right now, but instead I'm waiting on Rusty to replace my timing chain) |
| May the blessing of Our Lady of the Workshop be upon you. | |
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| Dr. Jim | Aug 7 2006, 04:03 PM Post #18 |
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Nihil estis, Omnes sum
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That's because they only can get that much passed. IF they had their way, all non-procreative non-missionary sex would be illigal. |
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...Matt was no exception to this. When he stood in the street and noticed his chest started to really hurt again, he made the decision to look down. He screamed like a grown man would scream when that grown man sees a laser burning his chest, and that is like a little girl... -From Super Naked Moose Man | |
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| Irockwayhard | Aug 7 2006, 04:41 PM Post #19 |
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Disgraced Dictator
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I saw a Time/CNN poll a few years ago - overall, more democrats said they had a 'good' or 'great' sex life than did republicans. |
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"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein | |
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| piercehawkeye45 | Aug 7 2006, 07:16 PM Post #20 |
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Franklin Pierce
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This is a real complicated issue. The reason they do this is because they just don't want to deal with religion altogether. There is such a fine line (in different places too) that if you start being "that is ok, but that isn't" you will get in trouble. It is sad that this is happening but you can't blame them for not wanting to get in trouble. For example, in a graduation speech, I am not offended at all if someone thanks Jesus, but once they start telling me I should thank Jesus they went too far. Other people can tolerate both, some people can't tolerate either. Just banning religion altogether makes it much easier to run and not have to deal with people getting offended.
I thought it was the right-winged fundamentalists that were against sex. |
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Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed I'm America! I have found the enemy and he is us. | |
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| Irockwayhard | Aug 7 2006, 08:38 PM Post #21 |
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Disgraced Dictator
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Right, hence more Democrats saying they had a 'good' or 'great' sex life. |
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"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein | |
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| piercehawkeye45 | Aug 7 2006, 08:50 PM Post #22 |
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Franklin Pierce
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Oh, I thought you meant it to be ironic. |
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Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed I'm America! I have found the enemy and he is us. | |
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| 严加华 | Aug 8 2006, 03:07 AM Post #23 |
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Magister Ludicrous
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That was sort of my point. Saul of Tarsus wrote most of the New Testament. Other people wrote the Gospels and the Revelation. And if you comb through everything in the whole New Testament, Christ's words amount to about five pages. (Having a red letter edition of the Bible helps to find those.)
The problem with the Bible as a whole, and even the New Testament in isolation, is that it preaches a whole lot of stuff. It preaches slavery being good. It preaches that women should be, basically, barefoot and pregnant. It preaches violence (yes, even in the New Testament!). It preaches intolerance (yes, even in the New Testament!). It preaches a whole bunch of stuff alongside the good stuff. So basically you can cherry-pick the parts of the Bible you like. If you're a decent person you find the parts that preach caring, giving, humility, etc. If you're an asshole you find the parts that preach the opposite, regardless if you want to stick to just the New Testament or not. Further, there's absolutely zero support for throwing away the Old Testament. Christ Himself didn't say "throw out the old teachings" he said that he had come to fulfill them. "Fulfill" does not equal "replace". |
LC Sez:
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| Irockwayhard | Aug 8 2006, 04:54 PM Post #24 |
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Disgraced Dictator
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I'm no bible scholar, if there's one on the site, be my guest and explain this stuff. Also, I was raised in church but haven't attended consistently in three years. I'm not defending Christianity, or the Bible as factual, infallible, or the true faith. I'm only defending Christianity as beneficent and philanthropic, as far as social consciousness goes, contrary to the Fundamentalist, Conservative Christianity taught by Ralph Reed, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, and adopted and exploited by Conservative politicians. That being said: Context. Context. Context. "Slavery being good" - that's a stretch. Matthew quotes Jesus as comparing slave and master to disciple and teacher - "It is enough for the disciple that he becomes like his teacher and the slave as his master" - basically, aspire toward Jesus' perfection, be a slave to God. "women should be, basically, barefoot and pregnant" - Paul's letters we find in the Bible, were written to individual churches, with individual problems and needs. Most who claim the Bible is against women in leadership positions ("barefoot and pregnant? Let's refrain from hyperbole, please.) quote either of the letters to Corinth. The Corinthian church was a converted Jewish congregation - before their conversion, women weren't even allowed to sit in the same room as men - the change was radical and hard to handle. So, Paul wrote to tell them how to ease themselves into the New Covenant and Christianity. In Acts, Paul meets a woman, Lydia, who leads a prayer group in her home, Pal comes in and blesses her and her congregation. Speaking of the New Covenant: I never said that the Old Testament should be thrown out, nor did I claim that Jesus wanted to throw the Old Covenant out. He said he came to fufill the prophesy and the Laws, but he did create "the New Covenant in My blood" (Luke 22:20), creating Christianity and denecessitating the requirements of the Old Convenant. Violence: Find me contextual support of violence in the New Testament, or was the whole "blessed are the peacemakers" thing out of context? Intolerance? Um...were? Read Mattew and Luke. And, you're right, you can cherry-pick as you like, you can take things out of context, make up stuff and misinterpret stuff. But when taken as a whole, the Christian faith, as detailed by the New Testament, is a peaceful, tolerant and compassionate faith. It's pretty vogue to Christian-bash these days, but too many people confuse true Christianity with politicaly-molded-Christianity. |
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"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein | |
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| Tom Joad | Aug 8 2006, 09:37 PM Post #25 |
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Gap tooth so my dick's got to fit.
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I like your post Mr. IROCKWAYHARD. |
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| Dr. Jim | Aug 9 2006, 01:43 AM Post #26 |
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Nihil estis, Omnes sum
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There are places in the bible quoted in support of, and not in support of, slavery. It takes both stances on the issue, saying both that someone who is a slave is a slave and that is not a bad thing, also saying one can sell themselves or family into slavery to pay debt, and saying that no one is a slave except for to god. They say both, and so they dont really have an opinion. You cannot blame the bible for it's views on women, nor should you try and defend them. The time period for which it was written held certain views about women that the modern world doesn't. Times change, and social concepts are not constant. Yes, they thought women were property and good only for reproduction (even though the act itself fouled them for a few months). But so did everyone else, and back in the day that was considered good. The bible takes a hypocritical stance on violence as well, much like regular christians. While it supports violence, it also speaks out against it. The same guy turns the other cheek, dies, and [plans to] return with a sword. The christian philosophy is a good one. It is nonviolent and it is a really great one. The christian mythology and holy book are what are bad. |
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...Matt was no exception to this. When he stood in the street and noticed his chest started to really hurt again, he made the decision to look down. He screamed like a grown man would scream when that grown man sees a laser burning his chest, and that is like a little girl... -From Super Naked Moose Man | |
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| Tom Joad | Aug 9 2006, 01:33 PM Post #27 |
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Gap tooth so my dick's got to fit.
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I like your post Mr. Dr. Jim. |
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