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American Health Care
Topic Started: Aug 8 2006, 08:57 PM (785 Views)
piercehawkeye45
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Franklin Pierce
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[][][], I can't argue with the all the mortality rates but the height and mass problem can't really be blamed for bad healthcare. Yes, doctors could give out tips for being healthy, they could scold people for bad eating habits (I'll go on about this later), but that isn't going to do much unless they are really good at scaring people. Even if they did scare them it would only last a month or two.

The source of our shrinking and getting fat is not healthcare, but how the society works and a good of amount of ignorance and stupidity. I'll admit I don't eat great but I stay away from fast food and don't eat shit 24/7. Stopping people from getting fat is far from the doctor’s control. One big thing wrong with Americans is that they/we think that they/we are smarter than the (usually qualified) people telling them what to do. People aren't going to listen to the doctor if he tells them something they don't want to hear, simple as that.

Another thing that is comical/sad is the fact that some people get really offended when a doctor tells them that they are obese and it is unhealthy. I heard a story on a radio show where a doctor did just that and this dumbshit women complained and made a big deal about it. I'm sure that doctor and others are going to think twice before they say something like that again because someone couldn't face reality.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
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Tech Junkie
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Styx Ferryman
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Listen, I never said free enterprise was perfect, our system was perfect, or anything of the sort. In fact, I'm saying the system needs an overhaul. That was the whole point of the thread.

However, I was looking for market solutions to the problem, solutions that don't involve the feds shafting doctors. Yet all I hear is "Socialism! Socialism is the only way to go! No other way can or will ever work, and you should stop trying to find one!"

I challenge that premice. I'd say there's a NON-socialist solution to this problem, but it seems rather unpopular to actually think that, let alone look for one. Now, instead of giving up and saying "let's do a new system" (Because, let's be honest, it's not happening as long as the US is still full of . . . well, Americans as they are), let's look for a way to fix the system.

Y'all seem like sharp people. Put that to use in trying to find a solution besides socialized medicine. Call it a challenge. Any takers?
May the blessing of Our Lady of the Workshop be upon you.
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Irockwayhard
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Just a little note here on cutting prices: I heard a BBC report last month saying English Pharmecutical companies spent half - HALF! of their budget on advertising. US companies spent 2.3 billion on advertising, a 28% increase from 1999. That's alot of advertising we're paying to see.
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
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Tech Junkie
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Styx Ferryman
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Wow . . . and only the Enzyte and Trogan Condom commercials (Trogan Man!) are interesting enough to be worth the expense. Yeesh. . . you'd think they could hire better writers . . .
May the blessing of Our Lady of the Workshop be upon you.
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Tom Joad
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The reason everybody wants socialized healthcare here is because everybody is lazy and doesn't want to pay for something that can make your life better.

"How dare I foot part of the bill for R&D of drugs that can make MY life better?!"

One of the first things I learned about money is that you get what you pay for. If you are going to pay doctors the same as unskilled workers, nobody good is going to be a doctor.

The US is already far enough in debt, how far do you think paying for every kid with a cough to go to the doctor will put us under?

The fact of the matter is socialized healthcare will put the US farther in debt, eliminate medical breakthroughs, and create more incompetant doctors. It will not lower the infant mortality rate or lower obesity; that is not due to healthcare, it is due to our culture. Although I never heard that out average height is decreasing blaming it on healthcare is ludicris. We get more calories and protein than anybody, so it is not our diet that is making us shorter. What is making us shorter is that out Latin population is growing steadily and they have an shorter average height.
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NeoAegis
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Aug 10 2006, 12:02 AM
Wow . . . and only the Enzyte and Trogan Condom commercials (Trogan Man!) are interesting enough to be worth the expense. Yeesh. . . you'd think they could hire better writers . . .

I personally favor Jack in the Box.
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piercehawkeye45
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This isn't communism, everyone doesn't have to get paid the same.

You can pay the doctors more because the hospitals will make more money than post offices. The government paying people to go to college to be a doctor would be a very incentive to get doctors. If they fail out without a good reason you can make them pay for it to make sure no one goes in the field just because it's free college. There are many other ways to get people to go in the field of medicine, and we would still have doctors because people go into it because they like the field, not for the money.

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The US is already far enough in debt, how far do you think paying for every kid with a cough to go to the doctor will put us under?

If I made the system you would still have to pay for a checkup, just not as much as it is now. The checkup would pay for itself and a slight increase in taxes would make up the rest.

Socialized health care would prevent big cancer treatments and other diseases. I already said before it has nothing to do with height or weight.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
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严加华
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Aug 10 2006, 01:13 AM
Y'all seem like sharp people. Put that to use in trying to find a solution besides socialized medicine. Call it a challenge. Any takers?

Why the Hell would I want to look for another solution when there's one that obviously works -- as demonstrated by dozens of countries healthier than America -- already in place? Only a fool goes looking for a solution when a solution is already staring him in the face. In the IT world we called that "NIH Syndrome" (NIH=Not Invented Here) It's a term of derision.

As it is, I don't really care if you Yanks get fat and unhealthy. The faster it happens the faster you topple from the top and stop stomping around the world like cowboys. The world will be a far better place for it.

Tom Joad
 
The reason everybody wants socialized healthcare here is because everybody is lazy and doesn't want to pay for something that can make your life better.


Or because the system as it is currently is so corrupt that people are fucking dying for want of the ability to pay for the government-protected robber baronies we laughingly refer to as "free enterprise" medical care.
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Tech Junkie
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Styx Ferryman
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Why look for another solution? Hmm, yes, why make something new when there's a working thing out there?

Why did the microwave get invented when the convection oven worked just fine? Still does, and in sime cases, better than the microwave.

Why bother with electric lighting when candles were perfectly adequate?

Why bother with quantum physics when newtonian physics worked rather well in the scales we generally use?

Why did the Germans try making a better beer after the Irish already had it?

Why have a Dodge Charger when an old Model A can get you from place to place?

Why's the military need the M1-A2 Abrams when old WWII models did just fine?

Why bother getting new history textbooks for the school when the old ones contained much of the same information?

Why invent the laptop when the desktop was sufficient?

Why mess with a Mac when PCs worked just fine (well, more or less)?

In fact, why bother advancing any field when our current level in said field is adequate? Why look for solutions to problems besides the solutions we've already found?

Simple: We might find something even better.

Are you afraid that a market solution to health care issues will arise that blows socialized medicine out of the water will appear, thus giving you one less thing to hate about free enterprise?

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to track down some failures of socialized medicine, just to point out they exist and it isn't a fail-safe, perfect system that any idiot can run, and that we should all adopt post haste. Unless you'd like to present the darker side of your preferred system, of course. Seems only fair, as I've not only accepted that the current free-market system of health care is flawed, but am looking for ways to fix the problems.

(Next you'll be telling me Social Security's fine as is . . . )
May the blessing of Our Lady of the Workshop be upon you.
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piercehawkeye45
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Tech I see where you're going with this and I agree to you in some respects but your logic is flawed

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Why did the microwave get invented when the convection oven worked just fine? Still does, and in sime cases, better than the microwave.

Too big, too slow, fire hazard

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Why bother with electric lighting when candles were perfectly adequate?

Oil replacements, bad lighting, bitch to carry around and light

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Why bother with quantum physics when newtonian physics worked rather well in the scales we generally use?

New discoverys, more mysteries wanting to be solved

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Why did the Germans try making a better beer after the Irish already had it?

Competition

I could give a reason for why the rest were invented too but that would slaughter the point.

You are being a little close-minded right now. You totally disregard everything socialist healthcare has to offer. What you should be doing is finding the good points of socialist and privatized healthcare and try to find a way to get best of both worlds (be very careful). Another way is to try to improve socialized health care to get rid of its flaws and make a system that will suit our needs. Open your eyes and realize their are other ways.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
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严加华
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Magister Ludicrous
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Aug 11 2006, 12:06 AM
Are you afraid that a market solution to health care issues will arise that blows socialized medicine out of the water will appear, thus giving you one less thing to hate about free enterprise?

More straw men, eh?

I don't hate free enterprise. In the right areas it is the single best approach to developing things quickly. Health care, however, is not the right area for it. (Nor are police services, fire fighting services, and other such activities.)

The main problem with business is that it is incredibly short-sighted and self-centred. These both are very bad things for health care. These reasons combine, for example, to make pharmaceutical companies focus on controlling symptoms rather than curing conditions (whether this be AIDS, diabetes or even just the common cold). It's a very twisted reversal of the "give a man a fish" thing: "Cure a man's disease, you get one payment. Control a man's symptoms and you get income for life." The fact that society as a whole suffers when people aren't healthy; that the economy as a whole suffers when unhealthy people lose productivity? This doesn't matter. Because most businesses don't think past the next quarter's numbers and almost all businesses are blind past one year.

If you can find a market solution to health care that is equitable and not beholden to that twisted version of "give a man of fish" I'd be delighted. But given my experiences in, you know, actual businesses (not textbook cases), and seeing how they're run and why they do the things they do, I simply cannot be convinced at this time that businesses could ever form a viable health care system.
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Styx Ferryman
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*sigh*

I have indeed been away too long.




Anyways, I've done a little research. Socialization of medicine is, as indicated by others in this thread, a vaild system, a working system, etc. Heck, even seems like a good idea if implimented properly.


But that misses the entire point of the thread. The point was to find potential market solutions for the problem. I'm not saying (anymore) that the market is superior in some way, or that alternatives are invalid, or anything of the sort. I'm simply curious as to whether or not anyone's given so much as one iota of thought on the matter of solving the medical problems within my nation without defaulting to socialization. It appears this is not the case, and that ever trying is apparently considered foolish.

Well, can we be foolish for a bit? I just want to know if it's possible. I don't wanna hear any more about socialized medicine. I've been persuaded that it's a perfectly acceptable alternative, but that doesn't answer the question I started this thread asking. Could someone, anyone, try and tackle the apparently untouched question of how to fix a market medical system without socialization?

Or am I wasting my time asking, all the while listening to people promote socialized medicine without actually trying to answer the question within the rather broad parameters allowed?

Is everyone closed-minded enough to simply assume that solving the problem within a market system is impossible, therefore there's no point in thinking about it? I've looked into the socialized side, and have come to the conclusion that it's a fine solution if done correctly. Now will someone look into the market side and see if there's anything that can be done to repair the system?
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piercehawkeye45
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Franklin Pierce
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I can think of a solution that won't fix the problem but will allow the prices of a longer patent without the longer patent.

Obviously the prices and length are wrong but lets imagine we are paying $36 a month for 24 months until the patent expires and the generic version comes out. If we extend the patent to 36 months do you really think the drug companies will charge $24? They will charge $26 and make it still seem like they are the good guys because prices are lowered. The prices will be lower and everyone will be happy right? Well overall the consumer is paying more: $864 to $936.

A smarter way would be to take a lease (I think that is the term) for the medication. Every time you buy the medication you only pay $24 and $12 (prices can change) will be left as credit. That way they can pay the cheaper price without extending the patent. The only and big flaw of this is that this will create more debt and the problems that come with that.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
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严加华
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Magister Ludicrous
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Aug 25 2006, 07:36 AM
Now will someone look into the market side and see if there's anything that can be done to repair the system?

Sure. You want to repair the American system? Make the boards of directors of medical corporations (HMOs, pharmaceutical firms, etc.) personally liable for every preventable death caused by excessive costs or artificial shortages. Or infect them with the very diseases which are mysteriously resistant to finding cures (and only coincidentally also very profitable because the "control" medicines are deliciously expensive!)

Basically, do to them what happened in China with AIDS. For a long time China denied AIDS was a problem. "It's a foreign problem" was the mantra.

Then one of the big leaders' sons got AIDS.

Now AIDS awareness, AIDS prevention and research on AIDS cures tops all medical agenda here.
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Tech Junkie
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Styx Ferryman
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Cold, Creul, Heartless. . . and surprisingly effective. I like the way you think, He Whom Has Inhabited 2 Nations on the Top 5 List for Largest Land Area.

Pressure the leaders of various medical facilities to develop cures and actually save patients (though they should be trying to keep patients alive anyway. Living patients are more profitable), even if by ruthless or outright heartless means.

Now we're getting somewhere :)

(If you can't tell, this week's been just bad enough to let that little sadistic streak out. I'm thinking of keeping it that way, especially since I'm looking at sales jobs. Whaddya think?)
May the blessing of Our Lady of the Workshop be upon you.
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