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The Myth of Flowering Democracy; why it won't stop terrorism
Topic Started: Aug 13 2006, 09:14 PM (464 Views)
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omar comin' yo
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I'm just curious about the ultimate stated goal of the U.S. occupation of Iraq.

How exactly does giving them a stable democracy evaporate all ill-will towards the west? Where is the evidence that this is even plausible? It seems to me that all the embitterment engendered by the invasion and occupation would lead people to vote for more outspoken anti-western leaders.

Reminds me of what happened in Palestine when they had an election: Surprise, the people voted for the most violently anti-Israel party, and the country was promptly blacklisted by the international community. What, they're given democracy and the freedom to choose their politicians, but only those politicians the west wants them to? Sounds like a raw deal to me.

Anyone care to clarify this for me, or have I pretty much hit the nail on the head?
omar yo. omar comin
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Sempiternal
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It seems like the western nations, mainly the U.S. wants the Iraqis and all other Democratic countries to make their own desicions, as long as they make the "right one" in our eyes. It's as if we are saying "Ok you can go ahead and vote, but you have to vote the right person into office, or else we will have to make the desicions for you."
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Tom Joad
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Y'all hit the nail right on the head. I'm all in favor of the Iraqi people making there own decisions whether we like it or not.
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Dr. Jim
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If you can take their excuse and find an obvious paradox or logical flaw in it, then the excuse is a lie. We're there for a differant reason.
...Matt was no exception to this. When he stood in the street and noticed his chest started to really hurt again, he made the decision to look down. He screamed like a grown man would scream when that grown man sees a laser burning his chest, and that is like a little girl...
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Irockwayhard
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Reminds me of the Vietnam cliche: The US vowed to sanction a democratic Vietnamese election by 1955 - the winning party would govern and the US would move out its advisors. They held a fixed election where US puppet Ngo Diem won. Come to find out - Eisenhower wrote years later - US intelligence estimates had popular support for Marxist Ho Chi Minh at 80%, British MI5 had that estimate at 90%. So when the US went into Vietnam, 80-90% of the poeple were hostile. Moral of the story: the people will prevail.

But I guess we just want a democracy in every country because democratic countries are less likely to war with each other. I guess, if you want to take the "we're in Iraq to democratize" stance, we're trying to ensure peace. Problem is the poeple may not always want peace.
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
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Timi Hendrix
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Irockwayhard
Aug 14 2006, 04:55 PM
Reminds me of the Vietnam cliche: The US vowed to sanction a democratic Vietnamese election by 1955 - the winning party would govern and the US would move out its advisors. They held a fixed election where US puppet Ngo Diem won. Come to find out - Eisenhower wrote years later - US intelligence estimates had popular support for Marxist Ho Chi Minh at 80%, British MI5 had that estimate at 90%. So when the US went into Vietnam, 80-90% of the poeple were hostile. Moral of the story: the people will prevail.

But I guess we just want a democracy in every country because democratic countries are less likely to war with each other. I guess, if you want to take the "we're in Iraq to democratize" stance, we're trying to ensure peace. Problem is the poeple may not always want peace.

The iraqi people might not think they want to change, but how would they know? they've been brainwashed their whole lives.
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Irockwayhard
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Timi Hendrix
Aug 14 2006, 01:27 PM
The iraqi people might not think they want to change, but how would they know? they've been brainwashed their whole lives.

I agree. I don't think that they've been brainwashed, per se. Rather, they've been fed fear politics. (Hmmm, where have I seen fear politics used before...?)

Not saying that the Iraqi people don't want peace or secular democracy - but this brings a moral dilemma: Even if a populace is brainwashed to favor an autocracy or dictatorship or any other form of oppressive government, if they want it, is it in anyone's place to tell them they're wrong, and then impose another form of government? But I guess that's the fundamental question the Cold War proxies were fought over, and now the Iraq war.
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
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Dr. Jim
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Timi Hendrix
Aug 14 2006, 12:27 PM

The iraqi people might not think they want to change, but how would they know? they've been brainwashed their whole lives.

The same can be said for the United States, only in that instance there has been actual brainwashing going on.
...Matt was no exception to this. When he stood in the street and noticed his chest started to really hurt again, he made the decision to look down. He screamed like a grown man would scream when that grown man sees a laser burning his chest, and that is like a little girl...
-From Super Naked Moose Man
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Tom Joad
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Timi Hendrix
Aug 14 2006, 05:27 PM
The iraqi people might not think they want to change, but how would they know? they've been brainwashed their whole lives.

If you have a TV, computer, or a radio, or read books or newspapers, or talk to people, or do anything then you have been brain-washed.

Tabula Rasa FTW!
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Delta_38
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Aug 13 2006, 09:14 PM
Reminds me of what happened in Palestine when they had an election: Surprise, the people voted for the most violently anti-Israel party, and the country was promptly blacklisted by the international community. What, they're given democracy and the freedom to choose their politicians, but only those politicians the west wants them to? Sounds like a raw deal to me.

In some ways, you hit the nail dead on and I agree.

In one way though I disagree.

I don't see it as a raw deal. They had a choice, a very clear one.
They chose the violent terrorist party. To me that says the people approve of such rhetoric and terror tactics, and are in fact bent on genocide of the Israelies.
As such, if that's the rules they want to play by, they have no place claiming to be opressed every time Israel hits a civvie by accident.

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The Mandalorians will triumph! For Clan Ordo!
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Chris Larkin
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Delta_38
Aug 17 2006, 08:07 PM
I don't see it as a raw deal. They had a choice, a very clear one.
They chose the violent terrorist party. To me that says the people approve of such rhetoric and terror tactics, and are in fact bent on genocide of the Israelies.
As such, if that's the rules they want to play by, they have no place claiming to be opressed every time Israel hits a civvie by accident.

Do you not feel that there might have been other factors in them voting for Hamas, apart from a wish for the destruction of Israel?

Part of these things are always economic - one of the reasons Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was voted to power in Iran was because the previous government cared very little about the poor, and so the people got rid of them, and brought in those who promised to help them (and who since have). As a socialist, I have some sympathy for the poor in them doing this. Hamas won the election in Palestine, promising to help the poor and improve the economy there (which they would have done, had Israel not got so arsey about things by refusing to allow aid payments in).

The thing the Sest sometimes don't understand is that people are more concerned about where the next meal is coming from than what the foreign policy of a party is (as it affects their daily lives little). That can go some way to explaining why populist anti-Israeli governments are springing up all over the Middle East, and could also show why Socailst governments are springing up all over South America.
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Delta_38
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Quote:
 
Do you not feel that there might have been other factors in them voting for Hamas, apart from a wish for the destruction of Israel?


While this may well be the case( I very much agree with you there were other factors) I also see it as the people choosing to back a party of thugs and killers for personal gain and security, much as Germany did in 1933 when the Nazi party came to power.

Choosing to back such a party can bring fearful consequenses indeed.


Quote:
 
As a socialist, I have some sympathy for the poor in them doing this. Hamas won the election in Palestine, promising to help the poor and improve the economy there (which they would have done, had Israel not got so arsey about things by refusing to allow aid payments in).


I never did understand welfare. In my eyes, it's dead weight on the system, and it's difficult to tell who really deserves it and who's simply mooching.

I ought to know too- Before I enlisted in the army, I was entirely dependent on work to survive.

As to Israel not allowing aid payments in, I don't blame them. What assurance do they have Hamas will in fact aid their poor instad of buying more bombs and ak-47s?
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The Mandalorians will triumph! For Clan Ordo!
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Necronomicon
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Would you vote for a party that served the interests of other countries first, or a party that served the interests of your country first?
omar yo. omar comin
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Chris Larkin
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I don't think anybody in their right mind would vote for a party that considered other people to be more important than themselves, unless they were highly disaffected with the way their country was. However, these things shouldn't have to be mutually exclusive, and a government should not need to see the lives of its citizens as more valuable than those of foreigners.
A squatter's made a mural of a Mexican girl,
With fifteen cans of spray paint in a chemical swirl.
She's standing in the ashes at the end of the world,
Four winds blowing through her hair.
- Bright Eyes
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Gopher_dude
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I don't think we should be even over there..This all kind of reminds me of a viking scenario only instead of rape, we give them democracy..both of whitch they don't want in the first place, and instead of plundering gold we get prisoners of war?


Anyway all I know is: the israels or whatever don't want democracy they mutch rather stick to there violent leaders who get in through money and threats, and I think we should let them do what they want. Exsept for terrorism thats not very nice but what are ya gonna do?
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