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| Guantanamo Bay; That Facility in Cuba | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 13 2006, 12:13 AM (1,281 Views) | |
| Comrade Jim | Sep 19 2006, 06:12 PM Post #31 |
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The Apocalypse Itself
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"Who is to say that the hardline insane law is wrong?" Me, both laws are completely and utterly incomparable- firstly you don't get whipped for not wearing your seatbelt, secondly there is no dispute about the dangers of not wearing of a seatbelt and its a minority (and lets face it wrong) view that cutting off your beard will piss off God, thirdly if you had didn't want to wear a seatbelt you could simply not go in a car while growing a beard is more or less impossible to avoid if you're a guy and lastly wearing a seatbelt doesn't just affect you by not wearing one you endanger all in the car with you. We have freedom for Smurf! sakes petty regulations do not amount to oppression. Waco was apart of a police action which had a reason (child abuse I think it was) again comparing that with Saddam crushing a revolt in self preservation is not right. "What do you mean without feelings or emotions? It's a country. You're buying into the propaganda we're being fed. It's not some evil country that hates everything good or something stupid like that." I didn't say anything about it being a evil country I said that just because a country doesn't have foreign influence over it doesn't make it free- the state may be able to do what it wants but that doesn't make the people free. Countries as a whole do not have emotions, individuals do was what I was saying. Iraqis were not more free under Saddam, sure you could say they were more happy, secure and prosperous under Saddam but not more free. "But now, please, define what you mean by "free." Do you mean free of laws? Because no place is like that." A place free of laws is worse than one with too many, I just argued against dictatorial laws. "Should we bomb everyplace? Including ourselves?" No.......
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| Tom Joad | Sep 19 2006, 09:11 PM Post #32 |
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Gap tooth so my dick's got to fit.
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How about we never say 'free'. Freedom has never done anything good, seeing as a concept is neither good nor bad, but peole usinf 'freedom' as a reason have done good and bad with it. |
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| Dr. Jim | Sep 20 2006, 08:01 PM Post #33 |
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Nihil estis, Omnes sum
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You don't get whipped for not wearing a seatbelt, but you get the form of punishment our country uses instead for minor offenses like that: a fine. The value of either a beating in one country is equal to the value of a fine in the other. It's actually argued that seatbelts can cause more harm that good to adults. And why it is a wrong view that cutting off a beard will make the gods mad? It's a view shared by the Christians, Muslum, and Jewish faiths. That's the three big monotheistic players right there. The view of the majority of people who think there is a single god feel that the cutting of hair is a hell-worthy and so too punishable sin. Not wearing a seatbelt does not endanger anyone save for yourself. But this single example is just that, an example. You still haven't stated WHY is islamic law wrong?
How do you know we have freedom? Really. Aside from being unable to define freedom, the only thing we have to back up our "freedom" is the fact that we are told day in and day out that we have freedom. But I think the Nazis made it clear that simply repeating something over and over again on TV [radio] doesn't make it true. If you care to, though, please try and explain IN WHAT WAYS do we have freedom?
Wait, wait, wait... Crushing a revolt for self preservation is wrong? So that whole "American Civil War" was wrong? We shouldn't have stopped the south from revolting through the use of force? Are you to say that if my town decided to overthrow the government, that the government shouldn't stop us? I know the American Government doesn't feel that way, and I'm happy they don't. A government that doesn't stop competeition won't last.
Then what makes the people free? To continue you must answer, atleast, these questions: What makes people free? In what ways do we have freedom? How did they not have freedom? Why is Islamic law wrong? |
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...Matt was no exception to this. When he stood in the street and noticed his chest started to really hurt again, he made the decision to look down. He screamed like a grown man would scream when that grown man sees a laser burning his chest, and that is like a little girl... -From Super Naked Moose Man | |
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| Tom Joad | Sep 20 2006, 09:05 PM Post #34 |
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Gap tooth so my dick's got to fit.
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If you ask me there is no freedom and there is no right or wrong, so I just ruin everything. |
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| Necronomicon | Sep 20 2006, 09:26 PM Post #35 |
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omar comin' yo
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Doesn't your second amendment give a pretty clear right to insurrection? |
| omar yo. omar comin | |
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| Tom Joad | Sep 20 2006, 10:48 PM Post #36 |
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Gap tooth so my dick's got to fit.
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The second amendment doesn't really favor anybody, because it can be interpreted any way you want. |
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| Dr. Jim | Sep 23 2006, 06:16 AM Post #37 |
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Nihil estis, Omnes sum
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It's purpose is actually so that the citizens are capable of defending themselves and providing a suitable militia to back up actual troops in the event of an attack from an enemy. Living in Michigan (the militia state), we get to hear about this ALL the time. |
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...Matt was no exception to this. When he stood in the street and noticed his chest started to really hurt again, he made the decision to look down. He screamed like a grown man would scream when that grown man sees a laser burning his chest, and that is like a little girl... -From Super Naked Moose Man | |
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| Comrade Jim | Sep 24 2006, 02:37 PM Post #38 |
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The Apocalypse Itself
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Ok then, I can't be bothered to prove that not wearing seatbelts can hurt other people but I saw a road safety advert which said that. I very much doubt that every Christian, Jew and Muslims keeps that rule about hair cutting. And I may as well throw in my opinion that al religion is wrong and stupid. Islamic law is wrong as it imposes someone's narrow world view on everyone else and please don't compare any Islamic law with some western law because it will make me weep as the comparison is petty and pointless. "The value of either a beating in one country is equal to the value of a fine in the other."- That’s a reason why we are free and people under Islamic law are not we have reasonable punishments for crimes. Of course I think the American Civil War is completely different and was not done for a leader to stay in power. We have freedom- I am entitled to a fair trial, I wouldn't be arrested for criticising the government, I can travel and settle anywhere in the country within reasonable limits, I have the right to choose my religion, I (in theory) will be treated with respect by the government, my government is accountable and more or less transparent, I have a whole host of legal rights, the government must follow public opinion much of the time or face defeat in the polls, I have a vote every so often which ensures the government has to take into my account my opinions.......being just some reasons. Of course this doesn't work in practice all the time. Iraqis were not free as they were severely denied the things I stated above lots of the time. If you don’t believe freedom exists you probably live in a world of absolutes or sit around thinking bout philosophy too much. I’ve answered at least three of those questions (I refuse to get into an argument about what freedom is and what makes people free as it will have no end), can I continue now? Or is there a cryptic riddle before I can continue? |
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| Dr. Jim | Sep 25 2006, 01:50 PM Post #39 |
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Nihil estis, Omnes sum
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You did well, we shall continue: The majority of reasonable people don't obey that law about hair cutting because, as you said, it's stupid. But the law is in their holy books nonetheless. Much like in the Islamic states, where it is a rule that is in the holy books, but not one you will get beaten for (as all holy books say you should). It's one of those laws everyone breaks, like working on Sunday. So we can throw out that argument. Islamic law does the same thing all other laws do. It prevents chaos and keeps people from killing others, stealing stuff, etc. The only differance is it's called Islamic law. It doesn't imposes someone's view narrowly any more than any other set of laws do, including those in the west. It should also be noted that, since the vast majority in the area are islamic, it would make sense to use those laws. Heck, it's a blasphemy to impose our laws onto them. So we can throw that argument out. Reasonable punishment is a relative term. It's reasonable there to be beaten, where as here it's reasonable to be fined. Myself, I would rather be beaten at times, because I see some fines as unreasonable. This is a subjective argument, so we can throw it out. When the south declared independance from the north because they were pisssed that they lossed the election, we smacked them down. If that happened again, we would smack them down. When those people in Iraq do it, guess what, we're still smacking them down. This one is thrown out as well. Good list of freedoms. Though I have to point out, they had many of those. I should also point out we don't really have some of those. And of course, who is to say that people should have those? A lot of those are dangerous to give to the ignorant masses. We won't throw this one out, this shall be the one I would like you to reply to. |
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...Matt was no exception to this. When he stood in the street and noticed his chest started to really hurt again, he made the decision to look down. He screamed like a grown man would scream when that grown man sees a laser burning his chest, and that is like a little girl... -From Super Naked Moose Man | |
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| Mister Sinister | Sep 25 2006, 06:00 PM Post #40 |
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Delusional Granduerist
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It seems you guys are debating pure semantics here. Those "freedoms" Comrade Jim listed, are mostly illusion of "choice" or "say so" in Federal Government. What "poll" could possibly sway presidential policy? The polls have been down on Bush for two years now, but he stubbornly stays the course. No politician cares about polls while they are "in" power. They can also find ways to subvert them through the Democratic process when they really do matter, vis a vis Florida in 2000. It's a big act, with the real inner workings covered cleverly by the curtains of choice and freedoms, which can be pulled back at any time (when it's no longer profitable) to reveal the true control and power the government actually has on us. Why do you think there are 31 flavors of Ice cream? It's to distract most people from realizing there are only two presidential choices every four years. Closing in on 300 million Americans from hundreds of different backgrounds, but only 2 White males have the qualifications to be president?!?!? Don't think that there is a difference between the two parties either. They are both Big Business pawns, because big business pays their salaries, or their plane trips, or their Hawaiin Vacations, or whatever else a congressman or President wants to indulge in. It's provided, as long as the "powers that be" play ball. And they ALL play ball. NoOne in Washington has "your" best intrests at heart when they vote on bills, their wallets crowd their minds, and their pants, and impede on your rights. You have the right to a fair trial, allright...If you can afford it, otherwise a pawn of the state is put on your case. How much does that court appointed lawyer care about your life? Is THAT fair? Fair can also be subjective, from court case to court case, agreed? And do you really consider a 15 or 20 year sentence a "reasonable punishment" for a simple drug possesion? It's the law. The law of your "free" land. The US may not arrest for anti-government speech, but you can bet you sweet smurf that they are listening, and waiting for you to drop the ball so they can swoop in and discredit, jail, or kill you, under some other pretext.. Ask Sacco and Venzetti... Oh wait, you can't the Government killed them. That's not philosophy, that is history. A surface of well written language hides the depths of your transparent govt. Do you really beleive that what you see is what you get with any of those politicians we call leaders? |
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| Tom Joad | Sep 26 2006, 02:32 AM Post #41 |
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Gap tooth so my dick's got to fit.
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Well said Mr. Sinister. |
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| Mister Sinister | Sep 26 2006, 06:50 PM Post #42 |
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Delusional Granduerist
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Thank you Mr. Joad. You see how easy it was to subvert Habeus Corpus. All they had to do was say it. So let it be written, so let it be done. From this day forth the US government shall seek out individuals of varying natures, call them "Military Combatants" and send them to jail for no reason, without a chance for a hearing or trial. But maybe one day, when it is a legality, put you before a Military Tribunal, and judge you based on heresay, with no right to a defense counsel. That is terrifying to me, because when they are done with the group of people they are going after now, they will come after the Mexicans (or U.S. citizens of Mexican descent) under the guise of "Taking back the Southwest". "These people have taken your land, now we will take their lives", say the leaders, followed by a deafening cheer of approval. Then it will be those who check "other" on their college applications, under the guise that "NO american is safe without some Americans knowing, what ALL Americans are doing, all the time", these people will be rounded up forcibly, and put in some camp, or building, indefinately. Next will be the Black or African-Americans. White Businessmen will find a way to run the poor blacks and whites out of their so called "ghettos", scoop up the land nice and cheap, carpetbagger style, then build gigantic warehouse after warehouse, much like they are trying to do in the Ninth Ward. Here is where it might end. The black American identifies with the muslim, in that they feel as if the US government perpetrates atrocities, while advocating peoples rights, for they are on the receiving end of such atrocities. Once that is accomplished the gap between rich and poor will be so great, that nothing else need be done. It will be the end of all American rights and privelages. Their will be no one to speak up for the people, because the people will have all been subdued, totally and completely. We need to be brave enough to step up and say that what is going on in Guantanamo should change. Let them be tried, and let them be released if no evidence can hold them there. We live by those principles, we should die by them as well. I am willing to die for my country by the hands of Extremists, even if my only infraction, is going to work that day. At least those I left behind will know that I was resolute to live my life the way it should be lived, free from fear and government control. IF we don't stand up for those being treated unfairly, and unconstitutionaly today, you and I will have no one to stand for us, tomorrow. It may be a convoluted arguement, but it certainly beats exporting war to save American Civilians. |
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| Dr. Jim | Sep 26 2006, 08:46 PM Post #43 |
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Nihil estis, Omnes sum
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First they came for the indians, and I didn't say anything because I'm white. Then they came for the witches, and I didn't speak up since I'm a christian. Then they came for the communists, and I didn't say anything because I'm a capitalist. Then they came for the middle-easterners, and I didn't say anything because I'm from America. Sound familiar? |
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...Matt was no exception to this. When he stood in the street and noticed his chest started to really hurt again, he made the decision to look down. He screamed like a grown man would scream when that grown man sees a laser burning his chest, and that is like a little girl... -From Super Naked Moose Man | |
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| Mister Sinister | Sep 26 2006, 08:49 PM Post #44 |
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Delusional Granduerist
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I've heard something like that somewhere, and it's the base for my theory, but I hate to say, I do not know what it is. I don't think it went exactly like that though, it's been years since I heard it. Please, enlighten me.
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| Tom Joad | Sep 26 2006, 09:09 PM Post #45 |
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Gap tooth so my dick's got to fit.
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That is part of the Right of Rebellion. That is pretty much what the Declaration of Independance is about and what America was based on. It is not mentioned in the Constitution or any state constituions except New Hampshire though. |
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