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| The Terrorists Have Won; Just not in conventional war | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 14 2006, 12:31 AM (977 Views) | |
| piercehawkeye45 | Sep 14 2006, 04:32 AM Post #16 |
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Franklin Pierce
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You guys are really taking that out of proportion. How did the terrorsist win? Just because we have a little more security how does that let the terrorist win? I'm pretty sure we had wire tapping before 9/11 (no proof but I'm sure) and the only reason it got blown up because of the anti-Bush rallying going on. This goes to wire tapping. Why the hell do you care if you are being wire tapped? What are you hiding? It is not a breach of security because the people complaing about the wire tapping are NOT getting wire tapped. Do you think that they have the time and people to wire tap everyone? The reason everyone complains about things is because people like getting benifits without paying the price. Once the price is revealed people get all bitchy about it then when they take the benifits away they get bitchy about that. The government can not win. People need to grow up and realize that things aren't always going to go smoothly. (that wasn't a shot at you guys but the hypocrits we all know and love) |
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Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed I'm America! I have found the enemy and he is us. | |
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| Altanese | Sep 14 2006, 10:26 AM Post #17 |
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Apocalyptic Usher
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It's because of two reasons: 1) wire-tapping destroys people's sense of privacy and creates a Big Brother complex, and 2) not a single terrorist plot has been foiled by the Patriot Act and wire-tapping. |
| Deep unspeakable suffering may well be called a baptism, a regeneration, the initiation into a new state. | |
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| piercehawkeye45 | Sep 14 2006, 03:17 PM Post #18 |
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Franklin Pierce
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How does it destroy a sense of privacy. They don't watch everyone, they only watch suspected terrorists. So as long as you're not doing anything stupid and not Middle Eastern (sad but true) you are not being watched. You really shouldn't be that concerned on whether or not someone is listening to your phone calls unless you're planning on doing something terrorist related.
Any proof of this? You are making it seem like a terrorist act occurs as often as, lets say murder. Planned terrorist attacks are rare and if done right, hard to find out about. A couple years of wire tapping isn't going to stop terrorist attacks. What it could do it stop them before a plan begins. It's like saying a vaccine for the flu hasn't cured anyone with the flu. They do two different things. |
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Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed I'm America! I have found the enemy and he is us. | |
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| Mister Sinister | Sep 14 2006, 04:04 PM Post #19 |
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Delusional Granduerist
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If terrorist attacks are so very rare, then why the hubaloo? Why even tap anyones phone? Do you have any proof that the wire tappings or the patriot act make things safer? This is the point, IT WON"T END WITH TERRORISM. The wire tappings could be used, in the future, to listen to your anti-government speech, and possibly interfere with your life because of it. I, as an American Citizen, have nothing to hide. I, as an American Citizen, have the right to say whatever I want, to whomever I please. I, as an American Citizen, have the right to live my life, without the government infringing on my day to day activities. You want to stop the terrorists? Leave them alone. Leave their politics alone, leave their women alone, leave their religion alone, leave their damned oil alone. Oh, it won't work? How do you know, we've never tried it! You actually believe, the government, won't abuse this power? Has history taught you nothing? Listen, this is how it starts, the government comes after a group of people, under the guise of freedom, safety, or 9/11, or whatever instills enough fear to get the rest of the nation to leave them alone, long enough to get the job done. When they're done with that group, they pick another, and another, and another. If we as a nation, don't defend our own fellow citizens' rights, when they come after YOU, I presume a white male, there won't be anyone left to defend you... And they WILL come. They will come, because people like you TRUST those slimy bastards in Washington, more than you trust your own neighbor, and that is just pathetic, and just what this Administration is banking on. We have killed or caused (by our presence) over 30,000 Iraqi civilians deaths. These are men women and children. We have become what we are fighting. The terrorists have won. Most in this nation are scared of what terrorists can do to us. The Terrorists win. Our "democracy" has been hijacked by a "theocracy". The terrorists win. Price of gas through the roof and becoming more unstable as time moves forward. The terrorists have won. More than 3,000 soldiers DEAD, and dying. The Terrorists win. NO END IN SITE... The terrorists have won. |
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| Comrade Jim | Sep 14 2006, 04:28 PM Post #20 |
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The Apocalypse Itself
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The terrorists CANNOT win, their objective is establishing a Islamic republic and the downfall of America/ western civilisation- its never gonna happen. Terrorists have killed something like 10,000 people since 9/11- they could kill a thousand times that and western civilsation would still be around despite the senseless slaughter. Out of all the muslim countries only two have been ruled by strict Islamic law this century (correct me if I'm wrong)- Afganistan (which had its hardline Islamic goverment toppled and now is a democracy if a unstable one) and Iran (which is reforming and will probably be a full democracy this century) which is a far cry from another Baghdad caliphate. Fundamentalism in muslim countries will die eventually, probably very painfully ,as the Islamic world liberalises just like the west has done- Islam will end up having its equivalent of the sixties where it finallly "chills out". Already suicide bombers are just politically/ socailly/ sexually/ emotionally fustrated and impressive young men and over time the number of people who are willing to blow themselves up or die as "matyrs" will decrease and decrease to nothing. The terrorists aren't out to end our freedom they probably don't give a Smurf! about our freedom but just want a free hand to oppress thier fellow muslims and dictate to the rest of the goverments of the world. |
![]() http://www.counterorder.com/nihilism.html http://www.resnet.trinity.edu/ddamon/hiero...exicon_menu.htm http://www.dcpoliticalreport.com/PartyLink.htm http://ninjagrizzlybear.azurenight.com/fightclub.htm | |
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| Mister Sinister | Sep 14 2006, 04:51 PM Post #21 |
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Delusional Granduerist
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Well, I'll agree with most of that, but our ideals have been shaken, and we aren't exactly the polar opposite of what we are fighting, which to me means, they have won in a way. But you're wrong about the "Chill out" period. Afghanistan has had it's day of peaceful, world class cities. It will be CENTURIES, before that country is back on course. As for Iran and the rest of the middle east, I only see the US, CREATING another generation of pissed off Muslims. All we need to do, to end that cycle, is take our over-inflated egos and military budget out of that equation. Since we do not know how to create long lasting, peaceful relationships with third world or developing countries, we should just stay seated, and keep our mouth shut for once, until someone ASKS us what we would do, instead of forcing our way of life down the throats of millions. All that frustration you speak of isn't just going to dissapate. They will act. They will kill. They will continue to blame us and Isreal for EVERYTHING, unless we find a way to co-exist, or the US just stays out of it. But co-existing isn't really an option, one of us has got to go...Do you have the willingness to kill or die for this current administration? Then sign up, or sit back. |
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| Dr. Jim | Sep 14 2006, 05:14 PM Post #22 |
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Nihil estis, Omnes sum
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The terrorists have not won. The objective was to force the United States to stop interfering in international affairs and stop fluanting our wealth. It resulted in us interfering in the form of wars and fluanting our wealth in the form of soldiers with GPS and paying a billion dollars a bomb. If by win you mean reach their objective, then no, they have not won. The loss of freedoms haven't protected anyone. But they also haven't really been very invasionary. |
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...Matt was no exception to this. When he stood in the street and noticed his chest started to really hurt again, he made the decision to look down. He screamed like a grown man would scream when that grown man sees a laser burning his chest, and that is like a little girl... -From Super Naked Moose Man | |
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| Mister Sinister | Sep 14 2006, 07:02 PM Post #23 |
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Delusional Granduerist
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Not yet. |
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| Chris Larkin | Sep 14 2006, 07:24 PM Post #24 |
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Planning World Domination
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The British security services may use wire-tapping for surveillance, but it is not allowed to stand up as evidence in court. Dr. Jim - Do you not think that actually agreeing to those ideas you've suggested would help everyone? It would save the USA a load of money in the long run, stop people wanting to attack the country, and everyone would give you a lot of respect. We all know that the terrorists don't hate us because of our freedoms, but at least we could stop them hating us in a way which helps everyone. |
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A squatter's made a mural of a Mexican girl, With fifteen cans of spray paint in a chemical swirl. She's standing in the ashes at the end of the world, Four winds blowing through her hair. - Bright Eyes | |
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| Necronomicon | Sep 14 2006, 07:39 PM Post #25 |
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omar comin' yo
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Terrorists don't fight conventional wars, armies do. Nor do terrorists take away your freedoms. The only group who can do that is your government, with your approval (explicit or tacit) or inaction. |
| omar yo. omar comin | |
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| Mister Sinister | Sep 14 2006, 08:24 PM Post #26 |
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Delusional Granduerist
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The US doesn't need to use it's wiretapping evidence in court, because there is no court, only imaginary "Military tribunals" that aren't even legal. They could listen to your converstion, deem it militant, then kidnap you and you'd never see the light of day again. No hope for court. How do we stop them from hating us or shift the focus of their anger, at all? Not to metion the "benefits everyone" part. It would be nice to see an end to Iraqi civilians and Soldiers dying. Let's benefit those two groups first, then we can worry about the rest of us, safe in cyberspace. |
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| radiohead1102 | Sep 14 2006, 10:05 PM Post #27 |
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Crazy Doctor's Apprentice
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I somewhat support Altanese, 'cept that the terrorist have beaten the Bush administration and not America. Also... People need to get it through their heads that terrorism isn't fought by full-scale warfare but by intelligence and police work! With that, I think that because the CIA and FBI have been so full of shit like bureuracacy (sp?) that it time for a large intelligence reform. Necromicon, you were right on the dot. |
| So this is Hell. And there's a crucifix in it. | |
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| piercehawkeye45 | Sep 14 2006, 11:45 PM Post #28 |
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Franklin Pierce
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Mister Sinister- you make it sound like we were a moral country before 9/11 and then got power hungry after. Just because we didn't notice what the government was doing before 9/11 doesn't mean that they weren't doing it. I know I'm changing the topic a little but we are asking the wrong questions regarding Iraq. Instead of asking "Why are we there?" and "When will we leave?", we should be asking "What will happen if we leave?" "Why can't Iraq fend for itself?" The US is in a big hole right now, if they pull out the country has a chance to be run by a same or worse regime then when we came in, which will let everyone that died in that war die in vain. If we don't pull out it gets criticized by itself and the world. |
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Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed I'm America! I have found the enemy and he is us. | |
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| Altanese | Sep 14 2006, 11:46 PM Post #29 |
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Apocalyptic Usher
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Because you don't know who could be listening in on private moments.
But they would HAVE to listen to a lot of innocent people to effectivly scan phonelines. After all, if they knew who to listen too, they wouldn't need wire-tapping.
Any proof that the Patriot Act has saved a single life?
I don't see how I'm coming off that way.
Then why do it?
Completly illegal laws don't protect people's lives, and CERTAINLY not their rights. All that these laws serve is too unecessarily increase power of government. Now, don't get me wrong; I'm all for strong central government, but not when it directly interferes with the lives of it's citizens.
I ment more in the sense of battles between armed groups.
Right. And would this happen if terrorists weren't a problem at all? Just because they don't directly do it, doesn't mean they aren't the cause. |
| Deep unspeakable suffering may well be called a baptism, a regeneration, the initiation into a new state. | |
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| Tech Junkie | Sep 15 2006, 01:23 AM Post #30 |
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Styx Ferryman
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Um, doesn't a strong central government usually directly interfere with the lives of the citizenry as a matter of course? How many totally benevolent big-brother states have there been again?
Their actions only accelerated the process. As much as it makes me sick to believe it, as our central government grows stronger, they would've taken more and more away to protect their strength. Look at Campaign Finance Reform (McCain-Finegold[sp?]). Passed without a hitch, despite being designed to limit political speech without directly limiting it. The stronger the government, the more restricted the populace's freedoms end up. |
| May the blessing of Our Lady of the Workshop be upon you. | |
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