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The Terrorists Have Won; Just not in conventional war
Topic Started: Sep 14 2006, 12:31 AM (976 Views)
Altanese
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Apocalyptic Usher
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Tech Junkie
Sep 15 2006, 01:23 AM
Um, doesn't a strong central government usually directly interfere with the lives of the citizenry as a matter of course?

I ment a strong central government as in more power over the states. Plus less beurocracy and red tape in the way of normal procedures.

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Their actions only accelerated the process.

Regardless, a goal was completed in making people trust their government less. Because hey; doing it slowly over time might have made the societal impact a lot less noticable.
Deep unspeakable suffering may well be called a baptism, a regeneration, the initiation into a new state.
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piercehawkeye45
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Altanese
Sep 14 2006, 06:46 PM
Because you don't know who could be listening in on private moments.

Oh, I forgot how much someone you will never know cares about your private moments.

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But they would HAVE to listen to a lot of innocent people to effectivly scan phonelines. After all, if they knew who to listen too, they wouldn't need wire-tapping.

No, they would get information on a suspected terrorist then they would listen in their conversations. Yes, they would need wire tapping because that is how they get evidence on who to look into further and who not too.

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Any proof that the Patriot Act has saved a single life?

This is going to go nowhere. Neither of us have proof so lets drop this argument because we're not going to go anywhere with it.

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I don't see how I'm coming off that way.

If there are two terrorist plots, what are the chances of the government stopping them? If a terrorist plot occured as much as murder than you would have a good argument.

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Then why do it?

What if the government stopped a terrorist attack that would've affected you. Would it be worth it?


They have not listened to your phone conversations unless you're a suspected terrorist. There are so many phone conversations it is impossible to listen to all of them. Even if they did listen to me, I wouldn't care. They will never know me and I will never know them.

This is another example of the American public caring too much about something that will not affect them. Yes, I agree that they will take it farther than they have too and that is bad but we have no idea what they do to keep us safe
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Altanese
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piercehawkeye45
Sep 15 2006, 03:12 AM
Oh, I forgot how much someone you will never know cares about your private moments.

It's not that they care, but that people do in fact care if a total stranger could be listening in on private moments.

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No, they would get information on a suspected terrorist then they would listen in their conversations. Yes, they would need wire tapping because that is how they get evidence on who to look into further and who not too.

If they were already a suspect, well we have had stake-outs for a while now.

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This is going to go nowhere. Neither of us have proof so lets drop this argument because we're not going to go anywhere with it.

My proof is in the fact you can't prove that it has saved a life. Its like the existance of God; no one can prove that there is a God, and no one can prove there isn't a God, but one lack of evidence only further proves the other point. If the Patriot Act saved a single life, there should be evidence for it, but if it hasn't, then there wouldn't be.

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If there are two terrorist plots, what are the chances of the government stopping them? If a terrorist plot occured as much as murder than you would have a good argument.

But there is a fundamental difference; murders kill one or two people in a short amount of time, whereas terrorism kills dozens, hundreds, even thousands in a short amount of time.

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What if the government stopped a terrorist attack that would've affected you. Would it be worth it?

At the cost of the lose of essential liberties? Hell no.

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This is another example of the American public caring too much about something that will not affect them.

Or another example of people not realizing how much something will affect them...

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Yes, I agree that they will take it farther than they have too and that is bad

Thank you for further proving my point.

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but we have no idea what they do to keep us safe

Hrm, now, what exactly does that mean?
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Tech Junkie
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Altanese
Sep 15 2006, 05:24 AM
Quote:
 
This is going to go nowhere. Neither of us have proof so lets drop this argument because we're not going to go anywhere with it.

My proof is in the fact you can't prove that it has saved a life. Its like the existance of God; no one can prove that there is a God, and no one can prove there isn't a God, but one lack of evidence only further proves the other point. If the Patriot Act saved a single life, there should be evidence for it, but if it hasn't, then there wouldn't be.?

Well ACKtually, there is a difference between this argument and the exisance of God argument. If there were evidence that the Patriot Act had indeed prevented a terrorist attack or saved a life, that evidence would be locked away in records on a still-pending trial or classified for security reasons.

To explain the difference, in the God argument, neither side has evidence, one side acts on faith with little logical backing or evidence, the other goes with the logical fallacy that absence of evidence is evidence of absence and claims it to be scientific. In the Patriot Act argument, the only way it would be put on display is if it failed, not if it succeeded. Successes would be filed away as evidence in trials that would still be in progress or otherwise suppressed for security reasons. There's simply no reason to throw data on ongoing investigations to the public. That's just bad investigating, reguarrdless of what the media want you to think.



Oh, and on a strong government with more power over the states and less red tape: With less red tape and the states less able to argue, what's to stop the central government from doing what's in it's own interests to the detriment of the people it's supposed to serve? And how long before they decide that those annoying protestors need to be silenced so they can proceed? Seems to me like any time a government becomes more powerful, it's at the people's expense.

I know it seems like I'm talking out both sides of my mouth here, but bear with me. I'm trying to help by eliminating arguments that don't work. Unfortunately, that's helping the other side in this case. Then again, we have a pro-big government person arguing against an act that expanded federal power, so I'm not sure who's on what side :blink:
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piercehawkeye45
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Altanese, are you arguing that the wire tapping is bad or that the government will overuse it powers using that as an excuse? I don't think there is anything wrong with the wire tapping but once they over use it then it becomes something else.

Everyone in America gets this bullshit sence of privacy and whenever something seems to rid them of this false sense, they get all bitchy about it. Lets say the rare chance that you were wire tapped and you had a "private moment". Do you think they gossip around the building about your problem? No, they just say there is no terrorist connections and move on.

You also missed the murder point. Murders happen frequently and if they had a "patriot act" to stop murders and nothing was stopped then you would have a good point. Terrorist attacks are much rarer than murders so they are much harder to find and bust. Tech brings up a good point with them having the files stored away too.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
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Dr. Jim
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Why do we think wiretapping is so wrong?

Who cares if the government is listening to you talk to your mother about the weather? The government doesn't care. It's not like guys in black suits will show up at your door and make fun of you for talking to your mom.
If you happen to be talking to your mom about that hydrogen bomb in her basement, then they might need to know.

The only valid argument against wiretapping is that one has something which they do not want the government to know about.

That argument in itself shows that wiretapping is required. If you don't have something to hide, then you don't have a problem with it. If you do have something to hide, then you need to be cuaght.
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Altanese
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The only valid argument against wiretapping is that one has something which they do not want the government to know about.

It's not that people don't want the government to hear their conversations, but rather ANYONE listening in.


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Altanese, are you arguing that the wire tapping is bad or that the government will overuse it powers using that as an excuse?

Oh, the government will definatly overuse it; good ol fashioned stakeouts with wire-tapping have been around for a long time and thus this law is uneeded.

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You also missed the murder point. Murders happen frequently and if they had a "patriot act" to stop murders and nothing was stopped then you would have a good point.

But thats just it; these acts are useless because police forces already have all they need to combat murderers and terrorists, and these acts would just give them an excuse to mess around with the lives of people who aren't even close to being suspects.


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Seems to me like any time a government becomes more powerful, it's at the people's expense.

Not necessarily. We would still have a representative government, and we'd still be a federal-republic. And though a strong government does have more power to take away rights, it also has a lot more pwoer to ensure those rights. It's just that right now the administration in power doesn't exactly have the people's best interests in heart.


Sorry everyone if I seem a little... off. Life and all...
Deep unspeakable suffering may well be called a baptism, a regeneration, the initiation into a new state.
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piercehawkeye45
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Altanese
 
It's not that people don't want the government to hear their conversations, but rather ANYONE listening in.

They don't sell the tapes over the internet.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
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Bigfoot
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Altanese
Sep 14 2006, 03:39 AM


"Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little extra security deserve niether freedom nor security." - Benjamin Franklin




Dang, I was about to say that :P

No one will ever win the war on terror, if you ask me. It will continue to exist in some form or another for ever.

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Tom Joad
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Yeah big government=less liberty, everybody all ready knew that. I thought 1984 was standard reading before joining this site?

The reason I don't like wire-tapping in because I am a terrorist sympathizer. I don't sympathize with their ideology, I just figure that say someday the government has gone all Big Brother on us and I'm tired of it. I think I should have a fair chance to organize a revelution before I get killed.
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NeoAegis
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I haven't read it.
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Bigfoot
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NeoAegis
Sep 15 2006, 08:54 PM
I haven't read it.

It is a gem of a book, I recomend it ;)
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piercehawkeye45
Sep 15 2006, 08:00 PM
Altanese
 
It's not that people don't want the government to hear their conversations, but rather ANYONE listening in.

They don't sell the tapes over the internet.

Not yet.

The future is the point. You said a while ago that the US was greedy and corrupt before 9/11, I agree, 100%. And I am saying that it is only a matter of time before the next power grab, uses YOU as bait. They use your ant-administration words against you. Lock you up tight and throw away the key. Then they tell what's left of the US that YOU are the problem and they WILL be hunting down those like YOU. To rid this country of those who threaten it. To scare the general public into believing that there are boogermen, like YOU who are waiting to kill decent Americans. The wire surveillence should be nipped in the bud, while still in infancy.

Maybe the problem IS that only half of us have read 1984. That book was a warning of the times we live in NOW. I'm with Joad, I'm granted my right to rifle by the Constitution, and I want my chance to use it.


And yes, let's pull out of Iraq. This is OUR war. We need to face this HERE. On US soil. It's our time to face the music for shitty foreign policy, that promotes genocide in some places, ignores it in others, and deals with it where there is OIL.

It is bullshit, and it's high time WE swam in it, instead of exporting it to third world countries.
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piercehawkeye45
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Are you talking to me or altanese?

I am planning to read 1984 but I don't have the time in college so I will have to wait for Winter break.

What will happen if we pull out of Iraq? We just can't say pull out without looking at the consquences.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
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NeoAegis
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I say it might have been a good idea to look at the consequences before going into Iraq all gung-ho, but hindsight's 20-20.
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