Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Exit Mundi Forums. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Super-Power; No Land of the Free
Topic Started: Sep 18 2006, 10:29 PM (829 Views)
Altanese
Member Avatar
Apocalyptic Usher
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
piercehawkeye45
Sep 20 2006, 03:42 AM
I'm staying with Japan, if we could see it would probably end up being Brazil or something we wouldn't think of.

I doubt it; without a sucessful first colonial revolution and an America thats important enough to distract Europe now and then, Spain and Portugal probably would have stayed in control of South America; along with a few smaller colonies of other nations; with the two probably fighting each other for control eventually.

Now, Japan; the entire reason that Japan withdrew from isolation was because of America and her Navy; just a few steel ships forced Japan into the world and from there it gradually became expansionist.
Deep unspeakable suffering may well be called a baptism, a regeneration, the initiation into a new state.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
piercehawkeye45
Member Avatar
Franklin Pierce
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I think that other countries would have revolted against the colonies, just because the US was the first doesn't mean it wouldn't have happened altogether.

That goes with everything else, Japan may have been inspired by someone else to exaand, Britian, France, Germany. It doesn't really matter by who but they would have been inspired never-the-less.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Altanese
Member Avatar
Apocalyptic Usher
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
piercehawkeye45
Sep 20 2006, 12:28 PM
I think that other countries would have revolted against the colonies, just because the US was the first doesn't mean it wouldn't have happened altogether.

Another reason the colonies revolted was because of the Napoleonic Wars, which I already mentioned were indirectly caused by the American Revolution

Quote:
 
That goes with everything else, Japan may have been inspired by someone else to exaand, Britian, France, Germany. It doesn't really matter by who but they would have been inspired never-the-less.

Doubtful; the Europeans had already learned the lesson of not messing with Japan, had agreements about not getting into the Japanese Isles, and had no reason to meddle with Japan what with the rest of the world ripe for the pickings.
Deep unspeakable suffering may well be called a baptism, a regeneration, the initiation into a new state.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
piercehawkeye45
Member Avatar
Franklin Pierce
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
If America wasn't the first to revolt, some other country would eventually take it's place. Inspiration and cause and effect are two different things. Just because the French Revolution was inspired by the America Revolution doesn't mean that it wouldn't have happened (I'm not saying it would have anyways I'm just making a point).

This is just like in sports. If the big player on a team was never there, someone else would step up to take their place. That player that steps up may be a year younger but could be worst, just as good, or better than the star player in the long run but we would never know if he didn't get a chance and sat on the bench the whole year.

The world is cause and effect and some things may change scenarios entirely but it also may take the same course but with different names.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Altanese
Member Avatar
Apocalyptic Usher
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
piercehawkeye45
Sep 20 2006, 02:28 PM
If America wasn't the first to revolt, some other country would eventually take it's place.

See, heres the thing; America was governed by indirect controls; Most other nations such as Spain used direct control over their colonies. America expected to be represented, most other colonies did not. Plus, the book 'Common Sense' was pretty much just America. Add on a failed American revolution,and you have the perfect recipe for a New World still under the thumb of European nations.

Quote:
 
Just because the French Revolution was inspired by the America Revolution doesn't mean that it wouldn't have happened (I'm not saying it would have anyways I'm just making a point).

Good thing you added that last part ^_- But I must say this: French support of America had emptied it's coffers, and the French were inspired by the sucess of the Americans.

Quote:
 
The world is cause and effect and some things may change scenarios entirely but it also may take the same course but with different names.

Do you realize how highly unlikely a history even remotly similar happening is, especially with major events turning out completly differently? The now changes with alternate history the further back you go, as well.
Deep unspeakable suffering may well be called a baptism, a regeneration, the initiation into a new state.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
piercehawkeye45
Member Avatar
Franklin Pierce
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Altanese
Sep 20 2006, 03:13 PM
See, heres the thing; America was governed by indirect controls; Most other nations such as Spain used direct control over their colonies. America expected to be represented, most other colonies did not. Plus, the book 'Common Sense' was pretty much just America. Add on a failed American revolution,and you have the perfect recipe for a New World still under the thumb of European nations.

The European nations would have lost most of it's influence eventually and the colonies would have revolted then. If the motherlands would annex the countries and accept it as part I may agree with that but if they kept treating the colonies as second rate, someone would have revolted eventually.

Quote:
 
Do you realize how highly unlikely a history even remotly similar happening is, especially with major events turning out completly differently? The now changes with alternate history the further back you go, as well.

It's more likely than you would think. History repeats itself but just in different forms. Sometimes they are so different that it's really hard to recognize. A Great War was almost certain the way diplomacies were set up and if a couple things changed it would still happen. It may happen 100 years later and the countries are allied differently but it would still happen.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Altanese
Member Avatar
Apocalyptic Usher
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
piercehawkeye45
Sep 21 2006, 02:00 AM
The European nations would have lost most of it's influence eventually and the colonies would have revolted then.

Why would they lose influence with hope crushed for colonists in the form of a failed American revolution and no major war in Europe? If anything, Europe would have grown stronger from all this.

Quote:
 
If the motherlands would annex the countries and accept it as part I may agree with that but if they kept treating the colonies as second rate, someone would have revolted eventually.

Yes they were treated second rate, but only because they're faaar from homeland with few amenities to make life easier and a good bit of time for problems to reach the ruler's ears. Otherwise they were mostly treated the same as any other peasant.

Quote:
 
It's more likely than you would think. History repeats itself but just in different forms.

History repeating itself isn't the same as history changing completly.

Quote:
 
It may happen 100 years later and the countries are allied differently but it would still happen.

Why would it still happen? History isn't some straight line, with major events occouring no matter what.
Deep unspeakable suffering may well be called a baptism, a regeneration, the initiation into a new state.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
piercehawkeye45
Member Avatar
Franklin Pierce
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Altanese
Sep 20 2006, 11:40 PM
Why would they lose influence with hope crushed for colonists in the form of a failed American revolution and no major war in Europe? If anything, Europe would have grown stronger from all this.

If someone has so much against them and don't have anything to lose, they will fight no matter what happened in America.

Quote:
 
Yes they were treated second rate, but only because they're faaar from homeland with few amenities to make life easier and a good bit of time for problems to reach the ruler's ears. Otherwise they were mostly treated the same as any other peasant.

I was talking more about extra taxes and unnessesary military contol.

Quote:
 
History repeating itself isn't the same as history changing completly.

Obiously, the same scenarios can happen under different names and different times but they accomplish the same things.

Quote:
 
Why would it still happen? History isn't some straight line, with major events occouring no matter what.

To a point yes it is. If two countries are in a fight about something and neither does anything to solve it, they will continue to fight about it an most likely start a war about it if it is big enough. They way the countries before WWI, it was a rubber band ready to snap.

Tensions between countries are like a rubber band, no matter which direction you pull it, if you pull it hard enough it will snap.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Altanese
Member Avatar
Apocalyptic Usher
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
piercehawkeye45
Sep 21 2006, 05:31 PM
If someone has so much against them and don't have anything to lose, they will fight no matter what happened in America.

But why do you think other colonies would have revolted? At the very least, you must admit that Great Britian would have remained strong. Regardless of what Americans of the day said, they treated their colonies very well, especially in later years when they became a global empire.

Quote:
 
I was talking more about extra taxes and unnessesary military contol.

The taxes were essential; the colonies were very prosperous and thus were taxed more, just like the rich pay the most taxes today.

And what unnessesary military control are you talking about? A strong military force was greatly needed in colonies, to protect from revolts, natives, and other nation's colonies.

Quote:
 
Obiously, the same scenarios can happen under different names and different times but they accomplish the same things.

But how would things like the collapse of Eurpean Imperialism, the Napoleonic Wars, and the re-awakening of Japan from isolation have still happened?

Quote:
 
To a point yes it is. If two countries are in a fight about something and neither does anything to solve it, they will continue to fight about it an most likely start a war about it if it is big enough. They way the countries before WWI, it was a rubber band ready to snap.

But thats just it; without these base events, none of the others would have happened. No American Revolution = No French Revolution = No Napoleonic Wars = No unified German nation AKA 1+2+3=6. MAYBE a World War One over colonies, power, etc.
Deep unspeakable suffering may well be called a baptism, a regeneration, the initiation into a new state.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
piercehawkeye45
Member Avatar
Franklin Pierce
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Instead of repeating the same thing over and over I'm going to say this. If Rome supressed the Goths, would Rome still be a superpower?
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Altanese
Member Avatar
Apocalyptic Usher
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
piercehawkeye45
Sep 22 2006, 12:54 AM
Instead of repeating the same thing over and over I'm going to say this. If Rome supressed the Goths, would Rome still be a superpower?

It very well could be. If Rome could keep back the barbarian hordes, I could see it still alive today; maybe not as powerful, maybe far more powerful than it ever was. And if they had accepted the Huns as an ally instead of refusing to give up a little land, well the world could be under two twin Empires; Rome with some Hun features, and a Hun Empire modeled after Rome.
Deep unspeakable suffering may well be called a baptism, a regeneration, the initiation into a new state.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
piercehawkeye45
Member Avatar
Franklin Pierce
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Rome would have fallen even if they suppressed the Goths. Countries don't fall from one reason, and one reason can't prevent them from falling either. Rome was having major political problems and the Goths and Huns just made it worst. If Rome was having problems earlier the barbarians in Gaul may have taken over and if they had them some other group (Franks?) may have taken the prize.

Yes, if you change some elements of history we may have completely different results but sometimes events are almost destined to happen. Europe had it's glory and a country would revolt and gain power. If that would happen, that country would have tried to expand (US in 1812 and Mexican War) and the political boundaries would be a lot different than today. The Superpower would probably be a combination of a couple of today's countries.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Comrade Jim
Member Avatar
The Apocalypse Itself
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Rome fell because as its empire had grown so large it was hard to govern and thus expansion stopped meaning no more slaves from wars of expansion which really hurt the Roman economy which was very dependant on slaves. A falling birth rate, major political problems and barbarian invasions all contibuted to Rome's fall.
Posted Image

http://www.counterorder.com/nihilism.html http://www.resnet.trinity.edu/ddamon/hiero...exicon_menu.htm http://www.dcpoliticalreport.com/PartyLink.htm http://ninjagrizzlybear.azurenight.com/fightclub.htm
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Altanese
Member Avatar
Apocalyptic Usher
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
piercehawkeye45
Sep 22 2006, 08:18 PM
Rome would have fallen even if they suppressed the Goths. Countries don't fall from one reason, and one reason can't prevent them from falling either.

You can't say that for sure, though. Lets say Rome kept back the Goths and accepted an alliance with a new Hun empire; these events weren't the sole reason Rome fell, no, but they were major turning points, thus Rome could still be an Empire today. It might not though, I admit that; nothing for sure.

Quote:
 
Yes, if you change some elements of history we may have completely different results but sometimes events are almost destined to happen.

How about this; ever hear of (that guy from Alexandria) who invented a steam-powered toy that would spin this little wheel? He was one step away from a working steam-engine, and maybe causing an industrial revolution of sorts nearly two-thousand years before the actual one. Lets say he took that last step?

Deep unspeakable suffering may well be called a baptism, a regeneration, the initiation into a new state.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
piercehawkeye45
Member Avatar
Franklin Pierce
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Altanese
Sep 23 2006, 09:26 AM
You can't say that for sure, though. Lets say Rome kept back the Goths and accepted an alliance with a new Hun empire; these events weren't the sole reason Rome fell, no, but they were major turning points, thus Rome could still be an Empire today. It might not though, I admit that; nothing for sure.

Maybe they could have still kept their identity and we would have Rome instead of Italy but the point I was getting at is that they would have fallen from superpower status. Just like Britain and France today.

Quote:
 
How about this; ever hear of (that guy from Alexandria) who invented a steam-powered toy that would spin this little wheel? He was one step away from a working steam-engine, and maybe causing an industrial revolution of sorts nearly two-thousand years before the actual one. Lets say he took that last step?

If he did take the last step and lets say there was an industrrial revolution 2000 years ago. It's common sence to say that the world would be a lot different than today but this comment works for and against me. It works for by saying an industrial revolution was "destined" to happen, just 2,000 years earlier. If it did happen then, the world would be a lot different than it is today. Events will happen if the events are allowed to happen. America becoming a country was not as big of an impact on the world as the industrial revolution until the World Wars. It didn't change the course of human race, so those events would've still happened.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Politics and Religion · Next Topic »
Add Reply

Theme Made by Sionthede of the IFSZ.