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The Afterlife; Heaven and Hell
Topic Started: Oct 6 2006, 08:34 AM (1,208 Views)
Kleptonis
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Disgraced Dictator
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Why's everyone assume that they keep their body in the afterlife? How unimaginative.
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piercehawkeye45
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Franklin Pierce
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Hopefully you don't look like your personality on Earth.....I would be one ugly mother.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
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Kalkin
Disgraced Dictator
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Altanese wrote:
Quote:
 
To Kalkin: Are you advocating overthrowing all civilization and going back to hunter-gatherer family units like apes?


No, of course not. Did you you think that anything I wrote before constituted a DISapproval of current state of the world?

Edited by Kalkin, Sep 2 2011, 02:17 AM.
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Altanese
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Apocalyptic Usher
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You're not being entirly clear. You claim that it would be better if we went back though we can't, and then you say that nothing would be better either way because the world wouldn't change?
Deep unspeakable suffering may well be called a baptism, a regeneration, the initiation into a new state.
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Kalkin
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It goes like this: pain is not the same as misery and pleasure is not the same as happiness. A masochist can be in pain and still be happy. I'm simply advocating a cost/benefit analysis before acting and putting things and concepts into proper perspective before acting. For example climbing into an electrical pole can get you cheers from your drunken friends, but it can get you injured, while abstaining from climbing earns you ridicule from your drunken friends for five minutes, but probably saves a hospital trip. Which is better?
Edited by Kalkin, Sep 2 2011, 02:22 AM.
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Necronomicon
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omar comin' yo
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Ah, but nothing means anything objectively, so we do as we wish.
omar yo. omar comin
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Tom Joad
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Gap tooth so my dick's got to fit.
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Kalkin
Oct 8 2006, 04:04 AM
Altanese wrote:
Quote:
 
To Kalkin: Are you advocating overthrowing all civilization and going back to hunter-gatherer family units like apes?


No, we cannot go back to sweet oblivion. We now know about lies and deception and madness. It'd never be the same. But we can become aware of all those illusions and not participate in such rubbish. That's what I'm doing. I claim that a persons life becomes a lot simpler, easier and clearer, if they cut of the illusions that bog them down.

Apparently you have never tried to survive in the wilderness or do real agriculture work because I have done both and I can testify that it is much 'sweeter' to be surfing Exit Mundi.

Life is not simpler, easier, or clearer if they see through illusions. These illusions make our lives seem so simple. The good people of 1984 didn't have a hard choice to make in their lives. It was simple for them. Now I for one am willing to make the sacrifices to see through illusions. Hence 'you can't handle the truth.'
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Kalkin
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Tom Joad wrote:
Quote:
 
Apparently you have never tried to survive in the wilderness or do real agriculture work because I have done both and I can testify that it is much 'sweeter' to be surfing Exit Mundi.

City life work just as well. It's how you see the world that counts, not where you do the seeing.

Quote:
 
Life is not simpler, easier, or clearer if they see through illusions. These illusions make our lives seem so simple. The good people of 1984 didn't have a hard choice to make in their lives. It was simple for them. Now I for one am willing to make the sacrifices to see through illusions. Hence 'you can't handle the truth.'

You say that, because you have never tried the pure clarity of mind. Illusions are sweet only as long as they don't make you do anything. The second they start making demands its best to get rid of them. The bottom line is: everything that happens in our minds (excluding brain damage) is always ALWAYS in our own total and absolute control. If some of the stuff in our minds is causing us trouble, the best option is always ALWAYS to get rid of it. It's basic physics: Simple brain activity costs less energy than moving the rest of the body (beyond a certain point of bodily activity).
Edited by Kalkin, Sep 2 2011, 02:26 AM.
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Necronomicon
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omar comin' yo
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Kalkin
Oct 9 2006, 05:13 AM
You say that, because you have never tried the pure clarity of mind. Illusions are sweet only as long as they don't make you do anything. The second they start making demands its best to get rid of them. The bottom line is: everything that happens in our minds (excluding brain damage) is always ALWAYS in our own total and absolute control. If someone thinks otherwise, it's an illusion or a brain damage. If some of the stuff in our minds is causing us trouble, the best option is always ALWAYS to get rid of it. Anything that makes us think it's not possible is also an illusion that troubles us and needs to be removed as well. There is know need to be enslaved by illusions or follow emotions or suffer misery or be anxious. Which is more effective a way to handle anxiety: A. smooth out anxiety with something else. or B. Simply stop producing anxiety (and start producing happiness instead).

I suggest you study neuroscience for a thorough refutation of your assertion that we are in complete control of our brains.
omar yo. omar comin
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Kalkin
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Necronomicon wrote:
Quote:
 
I suggest you study neuroscience for a thorough refutation of your assertion that we are in complete control of our brains.


Necronomicon, I was talking about controlling our minds, not our brains. If we just control our minds that's enough, the brain will follow (or lead or whatever) on it's own. Neuroscience theory is about the hardware, mine is about software that resides in it, different issues. Of course damage to the hardware hinders the ability to fulfill the proceedings with the software, corrupt some data and input/output, but it doesn't extend beyond that.
Edited by Kalkin, Sep 2 2011, 02:28 AM.
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piercehawkeye45
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Necro is right, while we do have more control over our mind then we think there are conditions like hysterical blindness.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
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Kalkin
Disgraced Dictator
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piercehawkeye45 wrote:
Quote:
 
Necro is right, while we do have more control over our mind then we think there are conditions like hysterical blindness.

Of course Necro is right. Unfortunately he's right about a separate issue. His argument is like making a good point about airplanes during a debate conserning boats. Hysterical blindness happens when a person doesn't understand he's in control. When it is treated with means such as placebos that person is tricked into taking assuming the control.

Metaphor of the situation: A person is always in the drivers seat of his own mind. The person plagued by illusions or hysterical blindness is driving without having his hands on the wheel or while keeping his eyes closed. A person with clarity of mind who has given up of illusions is a person with his hands on the wheel and eyes open. All people have a total control over their own thoughts, emotions etc. but if the person refused to use that control, it's only his own fault when he crashes.
Edited by Kalkin, Sep 2 2011, 02:30 AM.
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Necronomicon
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omar comin' yo
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Kalkin, you fail to take into account that the conscious mind is not the sole product of the brain. Instinct and the subconscious, for example, are not controlled by the conscious mind. You can't force your subconscious to think rationally, nor can you entirely eliminate instinctual reaction to stimuli.

You say that you were speaking only of controlling our minds, not our brains, right after saying our brains are our minds. A blatant contradiction. How is the mind seperate from the brain?

People do not have total control over their thoughts and emotions. May I be so bold as to suggest that thinking you are capable of doing so is an illusory belief?
omar yo. omar comin
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piercehawkeye45
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If you have hysterical blindness there is nothing you can do about it. If you lay a person with hysterical blindness on the ground and slowly lower a truck on them and all they have to do is move to get away, it won't happen. No matter how hard you try you won't be able to see.

Another point is the subconcious mind. If you're subconcious mind decides to hide something from you, no matter how hard you try you're not going to find it. You can call people weak all you want but right now your subconcious mind is hiding things from you too.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
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Kalkin
Disgraced Dictator
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Necronomicon wrote:
Quote:
 
Kalkin, you fail to take into account that the conscious mind is not the sole product of the brain. Instinct and the subconscious, for example, are not controlled by the conscious mind. You can't force your subconscious to think rationally, nor can you entirely eliminate instinctual reaction to stimuli.

And you fail to take into account that subconscious mind is not at war with conscious mind. They facets of same coin, not mortal enemies.

Quote:
 
You say that you were speaking only of controlling our minds, not our brains, right after saying our brains are our minds. A blatant contradiction. How is the mind seperate from the brain?

People do not have total control over their thoughts and emotions. May I be so bold as to suggest that thinking you are capable of doing so is an illusory belief?

Brain is the hardware and the mind is software. Software and hardware are not interchangeable.

Next, people DO have a total control of their emotions. The inability to change them is just cultural conditioning. Finally, what comes to illusionary belief it is a matter of results. If you thought that you can get rid of bad emotions, then try it and the emotion is gone, then it's close enough to be the real thing. If it works repeatedly and then on regular base, then it IS the real thing. You can argue on what caused the effect, but if it happened then it's pointless to say it didn't.

piercehawkeye45 wrote:
Quote:
 
If you have hysterical blindness there is nothing you can do about it. If you lay a person with hysterical blindness on the ground and slowly lower a truck on them and all they have to do is move to get away, it won't happen. No matter how hard you try you won't be able to see.

That's quite a claim you make. How did you manage to falsify it?

Quote:
 
Another point is the subconcious mind. If you're subconcious mind decides to hide something from you, no matter how hard you try you're not going to find it. You can call people weak all you want but right now your subconcious mind is hiding things from you too.

If it doesn't come to the surface, it has no significant effect on the consiousness and can be ignored.
Edited by Kalkin, Sep 2 2011, 02:39 AM.
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