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The Afterlife; Heaven and Hell
Topic Started: Oct 6 2006, 08:34 AM (1,207 Views)
piercehawkeye45
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Franklin Pierce
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Kalkin
Oct 9 2006, 04:19 PM
piercehawkeye45 wrote:
Quote:
 
If you have hysterical blindness there is nothing you can do about it. If you lay a person with hysterical blindness on the ground and slowly lower a truck on them and all they have to do is move to get away, it won't happen. No matter how hard you try you won't be able to see.

That's quite a claim you make. How do you know that my way cannot possibly work? Have you tested it every possible way and failed? Did God tell you my way is impossible (If he did, you have scitzofrenia and belong to a madhouse.)? Are you God (in which case: Please change the laws of the universe to make my theory correct.)? If you claim my theory is impossible and try to discredit it without even entertaining the thought, trying it out or having some definite proof to back you up, you are just prejudiced. I might be wrong, I might be crazy, I might be a victim of practical joke of a telepath screwing my mind, but atleast I have repeated personal success in my corner backing me up. (Granted, it did take lots of practise.)

I took a college level pyschology class and I was specifically told that once you get hysterical blindness, no matter how hard you try, you can't get rid of it until your subconcious mind, which you have no control over, decides it isn't needed anymore. So if you think that a college level course is teaching bullshit be my guest but I would really trust that over your opinion.

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If it doesn't come to the surface, it has no significant effect on the consiousness and therefore there's no point in blocking it. Besides, most of it is just onfocused bits and pieces or details conserning existing surface thoughts. There's not much damage they do as long as they stay in the subconsiousness and therefore they're not worth bothering for.

That is why rape victims (young girls) often have their bad memories blocked into their subconcious where they can not remember being raped. Usually the only way to tab into the subconcious mind is to use hypnosis and even that fails. It may just be my opinion again, but I think rape is something that is usually worth bothering for.

Another example, I came up with this one by myself so I don't have proof but this is a good example of the subconcious keeping then letting the concious mind have information. Have you ever liked a girl/guy and could only think of one or two things that you don't like about her/him. Then when he/she does something for you not to like her you immediately can come up with many things you don't like about her when you couldn't have before.

Another example is the tip of the tongue phenomenon. You know you know the information but it is still hidden in the subconcious mind.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
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严加华
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Kalkin
Oct 10 2006, 05:19 AM
First of all I'm mostly interested in the mind.

It is always best to be interested in that which does not exist, or which, at most, is an epiphenomenon of something far more difficult to grasp. That way one can avoid rigour in thought and application. ;)
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Necronomicon
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Kalkin, given that you are admitting 'mind' is a product of 'brain', then the brain determines everything and the mind can only be affected by altering the brain (as you admitted originally, when you made a concession for brain damage). There is no 'third component'.
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Kalkin
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Necronomicon wrote:
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Kalkin, given that you are admitting 'mind' is a product of 'brain', then the brain determines everything and the mind can only be affected by altering the brain (as you admitted originally, when you made a concession for brain damage). There is no 'third component'.
No, it's the other way around. Mind alters brains. Stuff happens in mind, and it gets scarred into neurons via memory proteins allowing mental events to be recalled later. It's called 'memorizing' things.


piercehawkeye45 wrote:
Quote:
 
I took a college level pyschology class and I was specifically told that once you get hysterical blindness, no matter how hard you try, you can't get rid of it until your subconcious mind, which you have no control over, decides it isn't needed anymore. So if you think that a college level course is teaching bullshit be my guest but I would really trust that over your opinion.

Your college teacher was making trying make point about psychology. He overdid it a bit to rub it in. You should read Popper's theory of falsification. He makes a point that science cannot create positive proof, only negative proof. This means that scientific experiments can only exclude specific possibilities by creating results that form contradicting examples. Everything is possible, except specific scenarios that have been ruled out one by one. When your college teacher said consciousness can never ever under any circumstances and with any amount of practise in any way influence subconsiousness he was making a good teaching point for learning canonised psychology but he also made bad science. Neuroscience may be your alley, but philosophy of the mind and philosophy of science are mine.

Quote:
 
That is why rape victims (young girls) often have their bad memories blocked into their subconcious where they can not remember being raped. Usually the only way to tab into the subconcious mind is to use hypnosis and even that fails. It may just be my opinion again, but I think rape is something that is usually worth bothering for.

That example strengthens my case. Hypnosis is notorious for being very inaccurate for remembering stuff, becomes the mind can simply invent new memories upon suggestions of the hypnotizer. That's what retrogression is all about.
Edited by Kalkin, Sep 2 2011, 02:47 AM.
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Kalkin
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Uups, I wrote:
Quote:
 
When young girls get raped and they suppress memories, they become irrelevant. Young persons mind...

My mistake, replace with: When young girls get raped and they suppress memories, such a persons mind...
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piercehawkeye45
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Kalkin
Oct 10 2006, 04:04 AM
Your college teacher was making trying make point about psychology. He overdid it a bit to rub it in. You should read Popper's theory of falsification. He makes a point that science cannot create positive proof, only negative proof. This means that scientific experiments can only exclude specific possibilities by creating results that form contradicting examples. Everything is possible, except specific scenarios that have been ruled out one by one. When your college teacher said consciousness can never ever under any circumstances and with any amount of practise in any way influence subconsiousness he was making a good teaching point for learning canonised psychology but he also made bad science. Neuroscience may be your alley, but philosophy of the mind and philosophy of science are mine.

If I hold a gun at your face and no matter how hard you try, you aren't going to stop me because it is out of your control. If I do stop it is because I decided too. This is what hystericall blindness is but your subconcious is holding the gun to your face while your kneeling on the floor crying.

I know you can not crate positive proof but if we used this thoery in arguments, we would all sound pretty pathetic wouldn't we.

Quote:
 
That example strengthens my case. When young girls get raped and they suppress memories, they become irrelevant. Young persons mind is not aware of the control over it has over itself, so subconsiousness activates the cutting process itself as a safety mechanism. A person with clarity of mind can do the same purposefully except the cut mindstates get wiped out permanently and don't linger in the bottom of the mind. This blocking thing is the same thing I'm talking about. It just is a bit sloppier and leaves troublesome traces, because it is not performed knowingly.

If it would help the person then why does the subconcious supress the memories in the first place?
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
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Kalkin
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piercehawkeye45 wrote:
Quote:
 
If I hold a gun at your face and no matter how hard you try, you aren't going to stop me because it is out of your control. If I do stop it is because I decided too. This is what hystericall blindness is but your subconcious is holding the gun to your face while your kneeling on the floor crying.

Yes I can. I can disregard the gun and run at you and try to punch you in the throat. It might not be wise, it might require lots of will power and stupidity, It might be very rare in real world, but it's not impossible. Not by a long shot.

Quote:
 
I know you can not crate positive proof but if we used this thoery in arguments, we would all sound pretty pathetic wouldn't we.

Theory or no theory, anything is possible, unless there is a specific counter example to contradict it. Excluding possibilities outright is opinion, not science.

Quote:
 
If it would help the person then why does the subconcious supress the memories in the first place?

Everyone forgets 99% of everything anyway. Trauma is just one more factor to distract people further. 99.9% from the time of trauma would constitute a major memory blockage, but in absolute terms it would not be a significant difference to 99%.
Edited by Kalkin, Sep 2 2011, 02:53 AM.
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piercehawkeye45
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Kalkin
Oct 10 2006, 01:03 PM
Like I already said it's a backup for those people who don't know how to remove traumas consiously.

Do you have proof for this? You have no idea if you've even been in a situation where you would need this backup so don't comment on other people and their "weaknesses" unless you have been in a similar situation.

Quote:
 
Consious and subconsious are basically the same thing.

No, the conscious and unconscious, the actual term of the subconscious, serve two different purposes.

Quote:
 
Yes I can. I can disregard the gun and run at you and punch you in the throat. It might not be wise, it might require lots of will power and stupidity, It might be very rare in real world, but it's not impossible. Not by a long shot.

Try to stick with the analogy if you can, you can't run at your subconscious. It was a bad analogy but I was getting at the power struggle.



Now I will agree with the fact that we can control ourselves a lot more than one would suspect but you said that we have total control and we don't. I just want to make sure we aren't straying too much from the main disagreement.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
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NeoAegis
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Just for future reference, you have an "Edit" button at the top right corner of your post. If you could use that instead of double-posting, that'd be appreciated. Thanks. (Directed to Kalkin... Damn it, pierce, don't post before I do!)

Also, people knew the world was not flat before Columbus. >_>
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Flamingo
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NeoAegis
Oct 10 2006, 08:10 PM

Also, people knew the world was not flat before Columbus. >_>

I heard people still think the world is flat and that NASA photos are fake.
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Kalkin
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NeoAegis wrote:
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Also, people knew the world was not flat before Columbus.

It still didn't become general knowledge until Columbus found America and it wasn't undeniably proven until Magellan expedition.

piercehawkeye45 wrote:
Quote:
 
Do you have proof for this? You have no idea if you've even been in a situation where you would need this backup so don't comment on other people and their "weaknesses" unless you have been in a similar situation.

Well no, I just thougt it fits nicely. Well, I won't start a war on that one. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Quote:
 
No, the conscious and unconscious, the actual term of the subconscious, serve two different purposes.

No they don't, they have same purpose. Subconscious just has bottom-up approach while consciousness has top-down approach. The rest is just a matter of degree.

Quote:
 
Now I will agree with the fact that we can control ourselves a lot more than one would suspect but you said that we have total control and we don't. I just want to make sure we aren't straying too much from the main disagreement.

How about a compromise: Total control is possible, but so difficult to achieve that it remains only as a theoretic possibility.
Edited by Kalkin, Sep 2 2011, 03:00 AM.
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piercehawkeye45
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Kalkin
Oct 10 2006, 05:25 PM
How about a compromise: Total control is possible, but so difficult to achieve that it remains only as a theoretic possibility.

To accomplish this you would need outside help.

Going on your example, lets say the master wants to find a bomb (event or answer to a question that he can't find) that his servent hid in such a remote place that no matter how hard the master looked he can not find it. Then he calls in the a bomb sniffing dog (hypnosis) to help the master find the bomb.

I don't know if we can unlock everything because the mind is so complex but we can figure out more things about ourselves then we can imagine.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
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严加华
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Kalkin
Oct 11 2006, 06:25 AM
NeoAegis wrote:
Quote:
 
Also, people knew the world was not flat before Columbus.

Just a few enlightened individuals. It didn't become general knowledge until Columbus found America and it wasn't undeniably proven until Magellan sailed around the planet.

Our "enlightened" European here seems to forget that the world exists outside of Europe. Which is funny considering that he's constantly bashing the ignorance of Americans.

In other news, irony is my favourite form of humour. Especially the unintentional variety.
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Kalkin
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严加华 wrote:
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Our "enlightened" European here seems to forget that the world exists outside of Europe. Which is funny considering that he's constantly bashing the ignorance of Americans.

How would you know? Have you ever seen a map of the World?

piercehawkeye45 wrote:
Quote:
 
To accomplish this you would need outside help.

Going on your example, lets say the master wants to find a bomb (event or answer to a question that he can't find) that his servent hid in such a remote place that no matter how hard the master looked he can not find it. Then he calls in the a bomb sniffing dog (hypnosis) to help the master find the bomb.

Well, indirect help isn't excluded, it is just unnecessary. Easiest way is to simply order the servant to defuse it. The master doesn't have to lay his own hands on it himself.
Edited by Kalkin, Sep 2 2011, 03:08 AM.
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piercehawkeye45
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Kalkin
Oct 10 2006, 07:25 PM
Well, indirect help isn't excluded. After all I'm informing you how to control yourselves. Anyway, you forgot the easiest way, which is to simply order the servant to defuse the bomb. The master doesn't have to lay his own hands on it himself.

If you could just order the servent to diffuse it then why would the servent hide it from the master in the first place?
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
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