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Animal Rights
Topic Started: Oct 30 2006, 03:19 AM (2,844 Views)
pie is delicious
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sabertooth
Nov 20 2006, 11:30 PM
Necronomicon
Nov 20 2006, 11:18 PM
-JD
Nov 20 2006, 06:06 PM
I'd love to see some answers to my reply. If you want to say 'animals have the right for me to eat them yum' then back it up with some sort of reasoning so I can point out what is wrong with it. :P

Option A: I beat a fish to death with a shovel

Option B: I beat a kitten to death with a shovel

Option C: I beat a child to death with a shovel

Are these options morally equivalent?

Technically yes, because destroying a life is destroying a life no matter what life you destroy. A murdere is a murdere no matter what he kills but because of the continued lessons we'v been tought and the continued stereotyping we'v been told. Us humans would think we are dramatically more superior, but in all honsty were not.

life and consciousness are proportional to brain power. A gnat doesn't count as alive in any real sence because it doesn't really think. The only way a gnat fits into the circle of life at all is to feed higher animals. Fish don't think either, really. They have a series of instincts cobbled together by the arrangement of synapses and deutrinites which allow them to cope with various situations. Death=bad. Bears=bad. Swimming upstream and mating before dying=good. They are unaware of pain because they are unaware of anything except as input being fed through the series of instincts held in their very small brains. Kittens are above fish because they have some cognative faculties which allow them to feel pain, emotions, and other such faculites derived from greater brain power. Above them are the humans who have the highest level of conciousness there is which is derived from the larger ceribral cortex. Killing one of us is worse than killing a kitten, trout, of gnat because of this. Bottom line: we rule.
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Duncan
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I basically agree with Pie is delicious, but I've been trying to figure out one moral problem with his statements. They seem to imply that the mentally handicapped among us are lesser humans, and we have every right to treat them as such.

I've been trying to rework my morals to accommodate them, but it's difficult to do so without also including other "lesser" species without being anthropocentrist.
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pie is delicious
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Even the mentaly handicapped among us are superior mentaly than most, if not all, of the species on earth, most having the capacity for speech and abstract thought.
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sabertooth
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Ill put this in nice and simple words using scientific fact.


All animals feel pain (PROVEN)
All animals think (PROVEN)
We do not understand or cannot deciper the tounge that they speak in or cannot hear the high frequnses they use to communicate, but other then that there communacation methods are almost at are level, at our level, or beyond our level
(PROVEN)

The mongoose(an animal that looks like a feret but lives in the wild) ways of comunicating is more efficant then our english lanuage) [Under study]
Love and trust in one another,
never fear that we might fall.
Because God gave us friends,
not a mountain after all.

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pie is delicious
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They feel pain but they are not concious of it as we know conciousness to be. Animals may comunicate but it is primitive at the least, in accordance with their lower level brains. As I said: animal conciousness is mostly instincts cobbled together, we are natures expariment in higher level reasoning instead of these instincts. While other animals may comunicate with body language it is gutteral at best and limited to coordinating hunting and mating dances.
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sabertooth
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pie is delicious
Nov 21 2006, 03:47 AM
They feel pain but they are not concious of it as we know conciousness to be. Animals may comunicate but it is primitive at the least, in accordance with their lower level brains. As I said: animal conciousness is mostly instincts cobbled together, we are natures expariment in higher level reasoning instead of these instincts. While other animals may comunicate with body language it is gutteral at best and limited to coordinating hunting and mating dances.

Pain is pain wheather hight level conscious or not. A new born child for example,most people would say it donset have a "high level" conscious or somtimes even a conscious at all. But if you pich it, it will scream out in pain. Pain is a somatic sensation of acute discomfort and you dont need a "hight level" conscious or even a conscious at all to feel it.
Love and trust in one another,
never fear that we might fall.
Because God gave us friends,
not a mountain after all.

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Necronomicon
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sabertooth
Nov 20 2006, 11:29 PM
Ill put this in nice and simple words using scientific fact.


All animals feel pain (PROVEN)
All animals think (PROVEN)
We do not understand or cannot deciper the tounge that they speak in or cannot hear the high frequnses they use to communicate, but other then that there communacation methods are almost at are level, at our level, or beyond our level
(PROVEN)

What is this 'proven' nonsense? Speaking in scientific terms, nobody 'proves' anything. Science finds evidence, not proof.

So, care to cite some evidence of your claims? Personally, I would especially like to hear the evidence for 'forms of communication among animals that are more complex than human language'.

But still, I'd like to see your evidence for all three claims.
omar yo. omar comin
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sabertooth
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Fristly, i did not mean to say ""I"" think anaimal language is beyond our level, I meant to say so people would go as far as too say...

Reference for my ainmals do feel pain:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2983045.stm
http://articles.animalconcerns.org/ar-voic...chive/pain.html
http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/en/pain/microsite/culture2.html
http://www.idausa.org/ir/reports/animalpain.html

Reference for animals do think:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_..._32/ai_56883557
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/03...1-thinking.html
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1859841756392936190
http://www.pbs.org/thinktank/transcript802.html (this is the transcrips of the clip above)

Reference for animal communication:

http://www.sciencenetlinks.com/lessons.cfm...kID=6&DocID=388
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_communication
http://acp.eugraph.com/
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/Shows/2005.12.11.htm

As you can see, I do extensive research befor i post anything that has to do with facts or science.

Now, no offence but i would like to see your source(s) of reference on the topic of all three of my statements.
Love and trust in one another,
never fear that we might fall.
Because God gave us friends,
not a mountain after all.

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Mister Sinister
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Quote from the first article about the fish

Quote:
 
The researchers, led by Dr Lynne Sneddon, say the "profound behavioural and physiological changes" shown by the trout after exposure to noxious substances are comparable to those seen in higher mammals.

They investigated the fish for the presence of nociceptors, sites that respond to tissue-damaging stimuli (pain).

Dr Sneddon said: "These studies did not conclusively show the presence of nociceptors.


Could someone PLEASE beat my fish to death! I am HONGRY!

http://articles.animalconcerns.org/ar-voic...pain.html\
This link led to some dude's opinion...
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Necronomicon
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omar comin' yo
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sabertooth
Nov 21 2006, 05:31 PM
Now, no offence but i would like to see your source(s) of reference on the topic of all three of my statements.

The great part for me is I don't need to disagree with any of your information (the fact that I was never under the impression that animals could not think/feel pain/communicate in complex forms is likewise irrelevant).

Now explain: What does any of that matter at all for?
omar yo. omar comin
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sabertooth
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I think some people are misunderstanding me i think it's fine to eat meat. But what i dont understand is why would some tourture somthing or kill it for no reson?

I jonined this thread to prove (the guy with the japanese name) wrong,that torturing animals in not a neutral act because animals do have feelings, do have thoughts and do communicate with one another and sometimes try to communicate with humans.(as substantial sources that contain evidence to support my claim are posted above. keep in mind that the links i haven givin you guys are links to a prestige universities ,think tanks, organizations as well as many resrech findings conducted on this topic by scientist and science organization).

Also if you tourture animals, you seriously need to go get a life,do somthing with it and make something of your self.
Love and trust in one another,
never fear that we might fall.
Because God gave us friends,
not a mountain after all.

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Mister Sinister
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sabertooth
Nov 21 2006, 10:18 PM

  I jonined this thread to prove (the guy with the japanese  name) wrong.

Good luck, the world travelling teacher meat bag is one hell of an opponent.
*compliment*

And it's Chinese..
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Tom Joad
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sabertooth
Nov 21 2006, 04:18 PM
Also if you tourture animals, you seriously need to go get a life,do somthing with it and make something of your self.

That is a nasty generalization isn't it?

The question whether it is morally wrong to kill/torture animals is this: it may be wrong for me to kill/torture an animal, but if I don't care, then that moral doesn't apply to me. Similar to being innocent by way of insanity.
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piercehawkeye45
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Isn't it funny how it always comes back to the fact that there is no universal morals. In our society it is usually immoral to torture animals, but in other societies it could be a common practice.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
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Tom Joad
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piercehawkeye45
Nov 21 2006, 10:36 PM
Isn't it funny how it always comes back to the fact that there is no universal morals. In our society it is usually immoral to torture animals, but in other societies it could be a common practice.

Well put Pierce. In other words, go crazy and do what you want, but don't be alarmed if others don't like what you do.
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