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Islam; Q&A thread about Islam, ask away!
Topic Started: Nov 3 2006, 09:25 PM (6,348 Views)
piercehawkeye45
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Franklin Pierce
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Everything that I have heard suggested that harsh penalties don't prevent crime but different studies come with different results.
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sabertooth
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piercehawkeye45
Nov 27 2006, 11:33 PM
Everything that I have heard suggested that harsh penalties don't prevent crime but different studies come with different results.

Well the vast majority of polls and survays with the issue at hand seem to back up my argument. I also geat my information from well trusted and prestige sources (such as yale university). Maby the reson your everything ypu have read suggested that harsh penalties don't prevent crime is because your reading of a 10 year old pot addicts website.

Saying harsh penalties don't prevent crime....

It's kinda like saying one would touch a hot stove even though one knew the pain that would come after it. And even if one were stupied/barve (depends on the situation) enough to do that, you have to face it, there was that little voice better known yet a a conscious that told you not to do it or made you thing about the consequences.
Love and trust in one another,
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NeoAegis
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sabertooth
Nov 27 2006, 09:40 PM
And even if one were stupied/barve (depends on the situation) enough to do that, you have to face it, there was that little voice better known yet a a conscious that told you not to do it or made you thing about the consequences.

Wrong. The prefrontal cortex of the brain controls judgment and decision-making, if I recall correctly. That is, if your prefrontal cortex is underdeveloped (like it is in many teenagers), then there might not be a voice of judgment in your head telling you not to do things.
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piercehawkeye45
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Believe me, I don't get my information from a 10 year old's site. I believe I heard my argument on the history channel or discovery channel. I'm not calling that exactly credible but it's not by any means a bad source.

To back up my argument, most people perform crime because they are either forced (if I don't steal I die) or they don't plan on getting caught. There are people in my hall that smoke pot even though they know it can result in expulsion from the dorms. They do it because they don't plan on getting caught. They would do it no matter what the penalty is.

For a better example, murder rate is higher in the US than it is in other first world countries. Yet, the US has the hasher penalties (death penalty).
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
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sabertooth
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piercehawkeye45
Nov 28 2006, 03:36 AM
Believe me, I don't get my information from a 10 year old's site. I believe I heard my argument on the history channel or discovery channel. I'm not calling that exactly credible but it's not by any means a bad source.

To back up my argument, most people perform crime because they are either forced (if I don't steal I die) or they don't plan on getting caught. There are people in my hall that smoke pot even though they know it can result in expulsion from the dorms. They do it because they don't plan on getting caught. They would do it no matter what the penalty is.

For a better example, murder rate is higher in the US than it is in other first world countries. Yet, the US has the hasher penalties (death penalty).

Pre capita the crime rate in The U.S is still high but not as hight as if you were looking at it on a total general bases.(sorry for stating the obvious, i just felt it had to be said) And we must no forget the fact that U.S culture is very different then most other frist world countries cultures.

And to NeoAegis
(what im about to say below exludes all people with mental illnesses)
Ok, im sorry but im not even gonna try to be politically correct on this one,If your a teenager, and have trouble understanding that touching a hot stove will result in pain, then you have a serious problem, and need to get some help A.S.A.P.
Love and trust in one another,
never fear that we might fall.
Because God gave us friends,
not a mountain after all.

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NeoAegis
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sabertooth
Nov 27 2006, 10:53 PM
And to NeoAegis
(what im about to say below exludes all people with mental illnesses)
Ok, im sorry but im not even gonna try to be politically correct on this one,If your a teenager, and have trouble understanding that touching a hot stove will result in pain, then you have a serious problem, and need to get some help A.S.A.P.

It's not that they don't understand that it will result in pain. The thing is that they lack the judgment needed to avoid touching a hot stove. Also, it's not restricted to teenagers. If your prefrontal cortex doesn't develop in your late teens, your ability to pass correct judgment and make decisions will be affected.
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sabertooth
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NeoAegis
Nov 28 2006, 03:59 AM
sabertooth
Nov 27 2006, 10:53 PM
And to NeoAegis
(what im about to say below exludes all people with mental illnesses)
Ok, im sorry but im not even gonna try to be politically correct on this one,If your a teenager, and have trouble understanding that touching a hot stove will result in pain, then you have a serious problem, and need to get some help A.S.A.P.

It's not that they don't understand that it will result in pain. The thing is that they lack the judgment needed to avoid touching a hot stove. Also, it's not restricted to teenagers. If your prefrontal cortex doesn't develop in your late teens, your ability to pass correct judgment and make decisions will be affected.

Dude i understand your a good guy and your trying to be respectfull to all the dumb teens out there, but if my 7 yearold cousin has the judgment and understanding that touching the stove will reuslt in pain,if my 6 yearold nephew has the judgment and understanding taht touching the stove will result in pain.....AND FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, IF MY CAT HAS THE JUDGMENT AND UNDERSTANDING THAT TOUCHING THE STOVE WILL RESULT IN PAIN, THEN IM PRETTY SURE A DAMN TEENAGER SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT CONCEPT. I mean it's not rocket science, it's not even algebra.

And if she/he have a lack of judgment when touching the stove, then ..

A)There brains are grwoing extremely slowly at which rate when there 50 they'll still be struggling with the question of "What will happen if i jump of a buliding?"

B) There just plain dumb/just dont care

C) They need some serious help
Love and trust in one another,
never fear that we might fall.
Because God gave us friends,
not a mountain after all.

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NeoAegis
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Okay, perhaps touching a stove is a bad example. Maybe this'll illustrate my point better.

Say you have a bunch of teenagers hanging out with nothing to do on a Friday night. They get a hold of some fireworks. They decide to make a "rocket car" by strapping the fireworks to the car's rear bumper. They will not, due to the prefrontal cortex not being fully mature in teenagers, weigh out the consequences. They will not even think that they can set the car on fire. That lack of judgment results from the underdeveloped prefrontal cortex.
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sabertooth
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NeoAegis
Nov 28 2006, 04:35 AM
Okay, perhaps touching a stove is a bad example. Maybe this'll illustrate my point better.

Say you have a bunch of teenagers hanging out with nothing to do on a Friday night. They get a hold of some fireworks. They decide to make a "rocket car" by strapping the fireworks to the car's rear bumper. They will not, due to the prefrontal cortex not being fully mature in teenagers, weigh out the consequences. They will not even think that they can set the car on fire. That lack of judgment results from the underdeveloped prefrontal cortex.

Yah i agree with you here but i would define this more "group stupidity" because studys have shown that when people,espeshally teens are in a group, the people in the group seem to lose countrol of there judgment or fail to implement it. So i guess, this example has to do with a little bit of both.
Love and trust in one another,
never fear that we might fall.
Because God gave us friends,
not a mountain after all.

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piercehawkeye45
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Touching a hot stove and committing adultry are two different decisions.

Touching a hot stove immediatley brings a feeling of pain. There is no reason why a person would touch a stove because there is no way he would get anything good out of it. Hot stove = hot = pain

Committing adultry does not have an immediate feeling of pain (metaphorically of course). If a male is being deprived of sex he may to go a crucial level to get sex. He goes a couple times without getting caught. Adultry = sex = good. Then he finally gets caught. He will never learn from his mistake because he will be hanged.

I will say that having harsher penalties will make someone think it over more but if someone is set on having sex, he will have sex no matter the price if he thinks he is safe.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
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Necronomicon
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piercehawkeye45
Nov 28 2006, 01:41 AM
I will say that having harsher penalties will make someone think it over more

Most of the crimes we're talking about here typically don't include much in the way of forethought. Sodomy and adultery, rape, murder, armed robbery, etcetera. These crimes are committed out of desperation and emotion.

I'd say basically the only thing it sort of prevents is drug trafficking by individuals. Drug trafficking goes to organized crime and the occasional lone idiot in those countries where the offense is punishable by death (Singapore, Vietnam, Egypt, etc).

I'd also like to note that apostasy from Islam is legally punishable by death in Sudan, United Arab Emirates, Afghanistan, Iran, and Saudi Arabia. It is also technically illegal in Mauritania, Qatar, Yemen, but it has yet to be enforced in those countries.
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sabertooth
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piercehawkeye45
Nov 28 2006, 05:41 AM
Touching a hot stove and committing adultry are two different decisions.

Touching a hot stove immediatley brings a feeling of pain. There is no reason why a person would touch a stove because there is no way he would get anything good out of it. Hot stove = hot = pain

Committing adultry does not have an immediate feeling of pain (metaphorically of course). If a male is being deprived of sex he may to go a crucial level to get sex. He goes a couple times without getting caught. Adultry = sex = good. Then he finally gets caught. He will never learn from his mistake because he will be hanged.

I will say that having harsher penalties will make someone think it over more but if someone is set on having sex, he will have sex no matter the price if he thinks he is safe.

It seems like you have lost sight of the original statement hawk.i stated that harsher penalties do prevent crime, and i used the stove thing as an example(touching hot stoves consequence is you get burned). Same with adultry in muslim countries(Having sex outside marriage's consequence is death)

And to Necronomicon
Selling drugs might be out of desperation to, (still dosent make it right) because that person might not have the skills to hold any other type of job.

BTW: Are you guys ttrying to say islam is a bad religon or that islam's laws are bad? Cause if you are, you might as well say it and get it over with, insead of posting (which look to be) little attacks on it.
Love and trust in one another,
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Tom Joad
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Nobody is saying Islam is bad. I just think that everybody agrees that it is not everybody's cup o' tea so everybody shouldn't be forced to follow it.

Harsh penalties don't reduce crime because nobody plans on getting caught.
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NeoAegis
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Whilst they may not think that Islam is a bad religion, it doesn't mean that they can't have certain disagreements with aspects of it.
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piercehawkeye45
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One, I having nothing against Islam. I just disagree with some of Islam's views, that doesn't mean I disagree with the religion.

For example, I disagree that in some countries women have to wear viels, but I also disagree that homosexuasl can't get married in the US. They are the same thing. A law coming from a religious view. I disagree with that but it happens with every religion.

Two, Islam has more conservative views right now than Christianity. 500 years ago, the laws with Islam and the laws with Christianity weren't that different. So if anything I have something against a country making laws out of religious views. That has nothing towards Islam in general.


Now, touching a stove and commiting adultry are two different desicions even though they both end up with bad consequences. The difference is that no good feelings come from touching a hot stove while you feel good when you have sex, even if it is adultry.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
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