Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Exit Mundi Forums. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Things not looking too good for Iranian president
Topic Started: Jan 18 2007, 05:31 AM (3,704 Views)
DirkNL
Member Avatar
Horrific poster
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Falcon
Feb 3 2007, 07:28 PM
Killer Bee
Feb 3 2007, 04:59 PM
Falcon
Feb 3 2007, 01:37 PM
Killer Bee
Feb 3 2007, 05:19 AM
Falcon
Feb 2 2007, 10:52 PM
You do realize that everything the government does is profit for someone, right?

Exactly. But the "someone" that gets the profit isn't someone like you or I. It's more like one of their own, or someone who's already wealthy enough they don't need to collect anymore profit. Am I wrong?

Yes, there's no such thing as someone who is wealthy enough not to need anymore profit. Also, those companies employ lots of guys like "you or me" too and those guys would get laid off before "one of their own" started losing money, not that I like playing the class warfare game.

I wasn't trying to play the "class warfare" game. So, your're saying that someone like Bill Gates needs more profit? He can buy and sell everyone who is a member of Exit Mundi and everyone who will ever be a member millions of times over. And trust me, I know how the profit game works. I used to work for a company(for around five years) that up and sold everything we did to an over seas company to make a higher profit. And, guess what happened to the "you and I" people that used to work there.

Sure, Bill Gates owns himself and is thusly entitled to everything he produces regardless of how much that might be (dictatorship of the proletariat is a fantasy, sorry Dirk). If a company sells everything it does to an over seas company then it means that it is economically sound to do so. People like you and I are subject to competition just like everyone else; if someone is willing to do our jobs at a cheaper rate than we are then we lose. Of course, we really win in the long run because we can take our skills elsewhere and continue to reap the benefits of having a strong economy filled with profitable companies making goods in a quantity and for a price that the market demands.

In what way is having the working class reigning a fantasy? So much bullshit, so little support. Anyways, I disagree with you on your statement that the one fired would actually win of getrting fired. It's like stoning someone 'for his own good'. Oh, and ever heard of the downside of a profitable company? Some companies actually put profit in front of human health. Does capitalism still sound so good? Not really.

-Dirk
Posted Image
Posted ImageHail the wallflipping monochrome computer thingyPosted Image
98% of the internet population has a Myspace. If you're part of the 2% that isn't an emo bastard, copy and paste this into your sig.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
agafaba
Member Avatar
douchebagga
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
DirkNL
Feb 3 2007, 06:39 PM
In what way is having the working class reigning a fantasy? So much bullshit, so little support. Anyways, I disagree with you on your statement that the one fired would actually win of getrting fired. It's like stoning someone 'for his own good'. Oh, and ever heard of the downside of a profitable company? Some companies actually put profit in front of human health. Does capitalism still sound so good? Not really.

-Dirk

:o

Disgusting... i am speechless
At the least they could investigate it, but nothing!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Falcon
Member Avatar
Apocalyptic Usher
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Quote:
 

In what way is having the working class reigning a fantasy? So much bullshit, so little support.


That's got to be supreme irony; you made the statement that you favored the working class reigning supreme without even a mention as to how such a thing might ever realistically work. Do I really need to point out how it always inevitably fails when its tried, like in the Soviet Union, and instead results in a good old fashion dictatorship of the despot instead of "the people." If you don't already realize why such a plan is doomed then I doubt I could ever persuade you.

Quote:
 

Anyways, I disagree with you on your statement that the one fired would actually win of getrting fired. It's like stoning someone 'for his own good'. Oh, and ever heard of the downside of a profitable company? Some companies actually put profit in front of human health. Does capitalism still sound so good? Not really.

-Dirk


No, its nothing like stoning someone for their own good. Its more like if you get a ticket for driving too fast. It looks like you've lost, but in reality you've won since uniform enforcement of the law will lead to a safer highway which will keep you alive whilst using it.

That isn't a downside of a profitable company, that a downside of human nature that some people would commit murder to make money. It isn't any different to sell aids infected medicine as to stab someone in a back alley, but I don't hear you blaming capitalism for a mugging.

Capitalism is a system that respects people's individual rights, their right to self ownership and property. Capitalism is about the free exchange of value between individuals that is non-coerced and mutually agreed upon. Fruad, deciet, theft, etc, have no part in capitalism and in fact are harmful to a capitalistic system.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Brutus
Member Avatar
Planning World Domination
[ *  *  *  * ]
capitalism is not the best way, it is just one of many, and its the one that the people have chosen, its a decent choice i suppose but socialism is a far better way of running a country.

Democracy - for the people, by the people and of the people
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
DirkNL
Member Avatar
Horrific poster
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Falcon
Feb 3 2007, 10:22 PM
Quote:
 

In what way is having the working class reigning a fantasy? So much bullshit, so little support.


That's got to be supreme irony; you made the statement that you favored the working class reigning supreme without even a mention as to how such a thing might ever realistically work. Do I really need to point out how it always inevitably fails when its tried, like in the Soviet Union, and instead results in a good old fashion dictatorship of the despot instead of "the people." If you don't already realize why such a plan is doomed then I doubt I could ever persuade you.

Quote:
 

Anyways, I disagree with you on your statement that the one fired would actually win of getrting fired. It's like stoning someone 'for his own good'. Oh, and ever heard of the downside of a profitable company? Some companies actually put profit in front of human health. Does capitalism still sound so good? Not really.

-Dirk


No, its nothing like stoning someone for their own good. Its more like if you get a ticket for driving too fast. It looks like you've lost, but in reality you've won since uniform enforcement of the law will lead to a safer highway which will keep you alive whilst using it.

That isn't a downside of a profitable company, that a downside of human nature that some people would commit murder to make money. It isn't any different to sell aids infected medicine as to stab someone in a back alley, but I don't hear you blaming capitalism for a mugging.

Capitalism is a system that respects people's individual rights, their right to self ownership and property. Capitalism is about the free exchange of value between individuals that is non-coerced and mutually agreed upon. Fruad, deciet, theft, etc, have no part in capitalism and in fact are harmful to a capitalistic system.

Point is that capitalism is the only reason people actually commit fraud, theft and other crimes having to do with money. In a communist system, there's no motive for theft thus no theft. People are dying because they aren't rich enough.
Falcon
 
Capitalism is a system that respects people's individual rights
That only applies to the upper class. You really don't have a shit of an insight in the life of someone from lower middle class, save the working class. Anyone with a lower 60% ioncome knows that the capitalist system is by defenition classist, as the poorer you go, the less rights you have. Maybe you bourgeois capitalist pigs are king of the world, but to us proletariat it's more of a fascist regime. Even the fucking books we have to learn from in school are biased to the right wing and all they do in the end is saying 'how bad communism is'.

-Dirk
Posted Image
Posted ImageHail the wallflipping monochrome computer thingyPosted Image
98% of the internet population has a Myspace. If you're part of the 2% that isn't an emo bastard, copy and paste this into your sig.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Falcon
Member Avatar
Apocalyptic Usher
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Quote:
 

Point is that capitalism is the only reason people actually commit fraud, theft and other crimes having to do with money. In a communist system, there's no motive for theft thus no theft. People are dying because they aren't rich enough.


Don't be rediculous, first of all, communist states still have money or some form of credit used to allocate society's resources to individuals in proper amounts. Even if they don't need money or credits somehow there is still theft. People don't steal only money, they steal things too like cars, TVs, etc... People die in communist countries because they're not rich enough too, usually in masses, because communism destroys the economic productivity of the nation. No one is going to work hard if they don't get to keep what they earn.

Quote:
 

That only applies to the upper class. You really don't have a shit of an insight in the life of someone from lower middle class, save the working class. Anyone with a lower 60% ioncome knows that the capitalist system is by defenition classist, as the poorer you go, the less rights you have. Maybe you bourgeois capitalist pigs are king of the world, but to us proletariat it's more of a fascist regime. Even the fucking books we have to learn from in school are biased to the right wing and all they do in the end is saying 'how bad communism is'.

-Dirk


I'm a member of and grew up in the working class silly boy, I know precisely what its like down here. The reason those books say communism is bad is the same reason they say the sky is blue or Washington was the first President, its a simple fact. Its also untrue that poorer people have fewer rights, they have the same rights as everyone else under the law. I suppose you're one of those people who thinks that if you can't, for example, publish a news paper that you don't have much right to speech as someone who can publish a news paper? The difference that you don't understand is that the rights we all hold equally are "negative" rights. The right that we have by virtue of existing, our natural rights, such as the right to say what we want (not to be confused with the non-existant right to be heard over some medium that requires resources to access), and rights with respect to the government, such as a right to a speedy and fair trial, etc. Affirmative rights, the right to something, or "positive" rights (the right to food, the right to health care, the right to any resource is no right at all because you can't have a right that first requires someone else's property be taken to supply you with that right).
"Classism" has nothing to do with this. If you're in a higher class (which is arbitrarily defined) you might be able to buy a fancier car. However, if someone wealthy hits me with it negligently I can still take the tortfeasor to court and get judgment for damages.
Capitalism is a method of economic organization that stresses individual liberty to do what they want (freedom of contract), mutual benefit in transactions, and freedom from coercion by physical violence. It is clearly the best system because it produces the most wealth and unlike socialism it doesn't use the power of government for mass theft, which is all "redistribution" is, from the producer to the non-producer.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
DirkNL
Member Avatar
Horrific poster
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Falcon
Feb 4 2007, 03:14 PM
Quote:
 

Point is that capitalism is the only reason people actually commit fraud, theft and other crimes having to do with money. In a communist system, there's no motive for theft thus no theft. People are dying because they aren't rich enough.


Don't be rediculous, first of all, communist states still have money or some form of credit used to allocate society's resources to individuals in proper amounts. Even if they don't need money or credits somehow there is still theft. People don't steal only money, they steal things too like cars, TVs, etc... People die in communist countries because they're not rich enough too, usually in masses, because communism destroys the economic productivity of the nation. No one is going to work hard if they don't get to keep what they earn.


That's because most people were still silver spoon fed from capitalism, and stopped giving any value to collective wealth and human kind has been composed of egoists ever since.

Quote:
 

That only applies to the upper class. You really don't have a shit of an insight in the life of someone from lower middle class, save the working class. Anyone with a lower 60% ioncome knows that the capitalist system is by defenition classist, as the poorer you go, the less rights you have. Maybe you bourgeois capitalist pigs are king of the world, but to us proletariat it's more of a fascist regime. Even the fucking books we have to learn from in school are biased to the right wing and all they do in the end is saying 'how bad communism is'.

-Dirk

Falcon
Feb 4 2007, 03:14 PM

I'm a member of and grew up in the working class silly boy, I know precisely what its like down here.  The reason those books say communism is bad is the same reason they say the sky is blue or Washington was the first President, its a simple fact.  Its also untrue that poorer people have fewer rights, they have the same rights as everyone else under the law.  I suppose you're one of those people who thinks that if you can't, for example, publish a news paper that you don't have much right to speech as someone who can publish a news paper?  The difference that you don't understand is that the rights we all hold equally are "negative" rights.  The right that we have by virtue of existing, our natural rights, such as the right to say what we want (not to be confused with the non-existant right to be heard over some medium that requires resources to access), and rights with respect to the government, such as a right to a speedy and fair trial, etc.  Affirmative rights, the right to something, or "positive" rights (the right to food, the right to health care, the right to any resource is no right at all because you can't have a right that first requires someone else's property be taken to supply you with that right). 
"Classism" has nothing to do with this.  If you're in a higher class (which is arbitrarily defined) you might be able to buy a fancier car.  However, if someone wealthy hits me with it negligently I can still take the tortfeasor to court and get judgment for damages. 
Capitalism is a method of economic organization that stresses individual liberty to do what they want (freedom of contract), mutual benefit in transactions, and freedom from coercion by physical violence.  It is clearly the best system because it produces the most wealth and unlike socialism it doesn't use the power of government for mass theft, which is all "redistribution" is, from the producer to the non-producer.


From WP:
Wikipedia
Communism article
Communism is an ideology that seeks to establish a classless, stateless social organization, based upon common ownership of the means of production.

Next time you go on with your head-smashing-on-keyboard, say something factual instead of just typing some random unsourced bullshit. Communism is considered bad as it is a hazard to the kkkapitalist system. That's also why there isn't a single book that says communism is a good thing. And about the 'there's no right to resources' bullshit you look to have made when you were smashing your head against your keyboard makes no sense at all. Food isn't property. You make food because the people need it, right? Then why the Smurf! is there actually a price on food? Giving food a price is the same as giving air a price - something you need to pay for whilst you can't survive without it.

-Dirk
Posted Image
Posted ImageHail the wallflipping monochrome computer thingyPosted Image
98% of the internet population has a Myspace. If you're part of the 2% that isn't an emo bastard, copy and paste this into your sig.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
piercehawkeye45
Member Avatar
Franklin Pierce
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Falcon- So you actually believe a black lower class citizen has the same rights as a white upper class citizen? Yes, there are no flat out racist or classist laws but they are all there, they are called institutionalized racism and classism. The discrimination is already intertwined within the system which makes it so much harder to get rid of, and is nearly impossible in a capitalistic nation.

Dirk- Yes, communism is perfect on paper and the perfect society but it will never work in real life. It gives too much power to the ruling class and they will always corrupt the system, not to mention the fact that everyone gets paid the same, which is also bad. There is no way a factory worker should get paid the same as a doctor that went to school for ten years. I think the pay should be closer than what it is in the United States, but they should never be equal. The only way communism would work is if they were born into a system that doesn't care about money, which goes against communism, because communism is a revolution caused by money.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Brutus
Member Avatar
Planning World Domination
[ *  *  *  * ]
a truly democratic government would work perfectly, its just so far no Communist country has been a democratic state.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Falcon
Member Avatar
Apocalyptic Usher
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Quote:
 
That's because most people were still silver spoon fed from capitalism, and stopped giving any value to collective wealth and human kind has been composed of egoists ever since.  


Humanity has always been composed of egoists; if your system doesn't work in the face of fundamental human nature then it is worthless.

Quote:
 

From WP:
Wikipedia
Communism article
Communism is an ideology that seeks to establish a classless, stateless social organization, based upon common ownership of the means of production.

Next time you go on with your head-smashing-on-keyboard, say something factual instead of just typing some random unsourced bullshit. Communism is considered bad as it is a hazard to the kkkapitalist system.


Communism is a hazard to human liberty in every incarnation that it has ever taken in the real world and indeed as it exists in theory.

1. Classless: Impossible, you will always have classes. If those classes are not based on wealth they'll be based on power or ability. The "elites" of the communist society are the generals, politicians, scientists, engineers, etc... The worker who "owns" the means of production is still going to be a cog in the machine of the general or the scientist that tells him what to build, how to build it, and how much of it to build.
2. Stateless: Do you even know what this meant in Marx's convoluted theory? His idea of the state was merely the organized power of one class for oppressing another. That might be what a communist state ends up looking like (what irony), but that isn't what a free state using capitalism looks like. The whole point of America was to remove from the government the power to favor one class over another.
3. Common Ownership - The true test of ownership is whether you can sell, destory, exclude the use of others, rent, or otherwise dispose of the [property] in question. If we own something in common then I can't do any of those things, thus when everyone owns something no one does. Then the question is who controls this ownerless item. The answer is whoever has the power. That power won't rest with the "worker" but the communist overlord who issues orders at the point of a gun.
Common ownership is also a farce because it denies the reality that some people produce more value than others. If a factory of 100 produces 1000 widgets a day, 20 of which are produced by me, then common ownership means 99 people just stole the value of 10 widgets from me. I will promptly produce less to avoid being robbed and society will be poorer.

Quote:
 

That's also why there isn't a single book that says communism is a good thing.


You've not done much reading, have you? Or did you just mean school books? Who knows what you mean, for someone who just got done whining about sourcing (when there was nothing to source) you don't do much of it.

Quote:
 

And about the 'there's no right to resources' bullshit you look to have made when you were smashing your head against your keyboard makes no sense at all. Food isn't property. You make food because the people need it, right? Then why the Smurf! is there actually a price on food? Giving food a price is the same as giving air a price - something you need to pay for whilst you can't survive without it.

-Dirk


Food isn't property? You need to go demand a refund on your education right now because it wasn't effective at all. People make food for the same reason they make everything else, there is a demand for it on the market. Things are given prices because they require effort to produce and supply; the price mostly reflects this cost, along with a cost based on how scarce and demanded the product is. Food has to be grown, which takes land, labor, equipment, time, all of which have a cost. Through the process of specialization of labor most of us choose to devote our time to our nitch production (whatever that is) and then purchase our food from someone else who specialized only in food production.


By the way, air isn't "free," nothing is free. You have to burn calories to inhale which requires that you work to get food, either by producing it yourself or by buying it from someone you hired to produce it for you, thus attaching a tiny little cost to each lung full. Enjoy!


piercehawkeye45
Quote:
 
Falcon- So you actually believe a black lower class citizen has the same rights as a white upper class citizen? Yes, there are no flat out racist or classist laws but they are all there, they are called institutionalized racism and classism. The discrimination is already intertwined within the system which makes it so much harder to get rid of, and is nearly impossible in a capitalistic nation.


The only kind of rights that everyone have are those rights which we have in relation to the government. Classism is no commentary on how many legal rights you have. Institutionalized racism, so long as it doesn't flow from the government, is merely a type of freedom of association that you disapprove of morally. The problem here is that we conceptualize rights in different ways and that's causing us to talk across each other somewhat.

Quote:
 

a truly democratic government would work perfectly, its just so far no Communist country has been a democratic state.


Why would a truly democratic government work perfectly? If the majority rules then any tyrannical despotic action that the majority wanted to undertake would be allowed. The perfect system is one which protects the rights of all the people and constrains the power of the government at the same time. The Constitution is the closest thing to that perfection that man has ever crafted.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Brutus
Member Avatar
Planning World Domination
[ *  *  *  * ]
if a communist country was truly democratic then the party in power would not be too corrupt or horrible because they would be kicked out at the next election.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Falcon
Member Avatar
Apocalyptic Usher
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Brutus
Feb 4 2007, 08:29 PM
if a communist country was truly democratic then the party in power would not be too corrupt or horrible because they would be kicked out at the next election.

Not if the majority wanted them to be corrupt and horrible to the minority.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Katastrof
Member Avatar
One Of The Four Horseman
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Falcon
Feb 4 2007, 08:54 PM
Brutus
Feb 4 2007, 08:29 PM
if a communist country was truly democratic then the party in power would not be too corrupt or horrible because they would be kicked out at the next election.

Not if the majority wanted them to be corrupt and horrible to the minority.

Cause you know that's what people want, a selfish dickhead that says some bullshit and then craps on there face. (Sorry I hate politics...). People vote for officials to look at for their intrests not the intrests of some Mega company. Corporations are not the majority. They shouldn't even be legal citizens. (They are by the way) If they followed (and should) rules that we did than multi-national corporations would be sent to a crazy house because they are psyciopaths. (I.E. They don't care for the well being of others, they are selfish and will risk others lives for their profits, they are destructive, and they are manipulative. Sounds like a law abiding citizen, doesn't it?)

Falcon
 
Classless: Impossible, you will always have classes


That's what they said about democracy and then some french people cut their inflated heads off.

Falcon
 
The only kind of rights that everyone have are those rights which we have in relation to the government. Classism is no commentary on how many legal rights you have.


Yes we all have the same rights but we don't have the same access to higher knowledge of these rights and/or the money to buy someone to represent us with these laws. Rich people can get out of anything because they have a better reasources, than a common crook. The more money you have the more power ou have, the more people you can manipulate. So a Rich person can have a staff of 200 + favours from another 500 while a poor crook only has himself and some washed up attorney. Sounds fair eh?

Falcon
 
By the way, air isn't "free," nothing is free. You have to burn calories to inhale which requires that you work to get food, either by producing it yourself or by buying it from someone you hired to produce it for you, thus attaching a tiny little cost to each lung full. Enjoy!


Semantics. Pure BS. Air is free and so is water (well legally). The MNC psyiopaths don't see it that why even though it cleary states in the UN charter of rights and fundmental freedoms it is. It's called the right to life. Unfourtunatly this happened in a South American country where there water was sold to a MNC and then charged back to them for over half their income. The government thought it was going to cut corners and "save them a buck". It saved the government millions but cost the citizens everything. Good ol' capatilism, killing off the poor and making the rich richer.
The citizens than revolted and kicked the government out. The MNC than sued the previous government for indangerment of that corporations "life". The irony of that is they were indangering the lives of thousands of people who couldn't afford water.

Article 3

This is why I can'y stand bottled water. The ultimate product of lazyness. It's f'ing tapwater in a plastic bottle that produces cancer (if the bottle has a recycle symbol with anything over 4 means the plastic decomposes faster putting by products of the plastic into the water.) and wastes oil. If you believe it comes from a spring or a glacier you're just naive. What's more cost efficiant? Free tap water or a million dollar extracting project? Check please!

Oh and Falcon if nothing is free than why do you believe in the freedom of the U.S?

Falcon
 
Why would a truly democratic government work perfectly? If the majority rules then any tyrannical despotic action that the majority wanted to undertake would be allowed. The perfect system is one which protects the rights of all the people and constrains the power of the government at the same time. The Constitution is the closest thing to that perfection that man has ever crafted.


Pfft, the Canadaian Charter of Rights and Freedoms comes closer. (Our Constituation can be ammended) The perfect democratic government would be one of direct democracy, that is to say no f'ing middle man. That way you can't corrupt it as easily (you could tamper the connection but better than a middle man).

If a majority ruled why the hell would they want a one ruler who just looked after the minority? If the majority wanted something why the hell would you not want it? Why do people think they know better than other people? It's called a supiorority complex. And only people who have are insecurities have this because they don't feel equal to others, when in reality they are. We are all equal, we all have strengths and weaknesses. People over think their weaknesses and compensate by gaining power from the weaknesses of others. (I.E manipulating people by their weaknesses). Such as government promising material things for their citizen in return for the power over them.

Falcon
 
Don't be rediculous, first of all, communist states still have money or some form of credit used to allocate society's resources to individuals in proper amounts


No just past communist countries. I don't think you're a psychic (because that's against Christianity) so you can't tell the future. Saying communism is bad is not a fact. It's an opinion. A fact is accepted collectivly, an opinion can be shared by a majority but there may be minority that opposes it. The sky infact is not blue but that rather comes from light refracting off the gases present.


Bottom line: MNCs are destroying our world.



Posted Image

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero"(Seize the day put no trust in tomorrow)
~ Horace
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
piercehawkeye45
Member Avatar
Franklin Pierce
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Katastrof
Feb 4 2007, 07:01 PM
Falcon
 
Classless: Impossible, you will always have classes


That's what they said about democracy and then some french people cut their inflated heads off.

Democracy is a bit different than getting rid of classes. People are not equal so there will always people that will get more power than others. People should be treated as equals but there will people that will always stand out from the rest.

Quote:
 
f'ing tapwater in a plastic bottle

Some are purified by reverse osmosis, that is the better stuff.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
I'm America!

I have found the enemy and he is us.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Falcon
Member Avatar
Apocalyptic Usher
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Quote:
 
Falcon
Feb 4 2007, 08:54 PM
Brutus
Feb 4 2007, 08:29 PM
if a communist country was truly democratic then the party in power would not be too corrupt or horrible because they would be kicked out at the next election.

Not if the majority wanted them to be corrupt and horrible to the minority.

Cause you know that's what people want, a selfish dickhead that says some bullshit and then craps on there face. (Sorry I hate politics...).


Apparently that's exactly what they want, so long as they get a cut. The majority votes to steal and oppress the minority when it can get away with it.

Quote:
 

People vote for officials to look at for their intrests not the intrests of some Mega company. Corporations are not the majority. They shouldn't even be legal citizens. (They are by the way) If they followed (and should) rules that we did than multi-national corporations would be sent to a crazy house because they are psyciopaths. (I.E. They don't care for the well being of others, they are selfish and will risk others lives for their profits, they are destructive, and they are manipulative. Sounds like a law abiding citizen, doesn't it?)


How did we get into a rant against corporations?

1. Corporations shouldn't be favored by the government more than any other person.
2. Corporations should be the exact legal constructs that they are because they encourage investment by allowing people to shield assets outside the company from lawsuits, bankruptcy, etc... Commerce would grind to a halt if you started repealing the way the corporation is set up.
3. Corporations are not inherently psyciopaths and you've not even attempted to prove that they are. You've merely spewed out some rather caustic propaganda.
4. Corporations generally abide within the law just like everyone else; they are made up of people after all and run by people.
5. Corporations are not destructive, but rather productive. Most of the things we buy and use are made by corporations in one way or another. They reduce costs, streamline efficiency, and make us all richer. To the extent they look after profits is no more than anyone else. People are self interested, but that's a good thing. In people's pursuit of money they produce wonderful things that society needs to be wealthy and prosperous.


Quote:
 

Falcon
 
Classless: Impossible, you will always have classes


That's what they said about democracy and then some french people cut their inflated heads off.


Yet you didn't address my points at all.

Quote:
 

Falcon
 
The only kind of rights that everyone have are those rights which we have in relation to the government. Classism is no commentary on how many legal rights you have.


Yes we all have the same rights but we don't have the same access to higher knowledge of these rights and/or the money to buy someone to represent us with these laws. Rich people can get out of anything because they have a better reasources, than a common crook. The more money you have the more power ou have, the more people you can manipulate. So a Rich person can have a staff of 200 + favours from another 500 while a poor crook only has himself and some washed up attorney. Sounds fair eh?


Yes, it sounds very fair, as fair as life ever gets, which is utterly unfair. Deal with it kiddo. People with more money can buy a better attorney who can make better arguments, conduct a more detailed discovery, or whatever. That doesn't mean you have unequal rights though because the only rights you have are the negative rights I mentioned earlier. You also failed to address my point again, which isn't surprising since it slays your argument. This post is a good example of go back and try again.

Quote:
 

Falcon
 
By the way, air isn't "free," nothing is free. You have to burn calories to inhale which requires that you work to get food, either by producing it yourself or by buying it from someone you hired to produce it for you, thus attaching a tiny little cost to each lung full. Enjoy!


Semantics. Pure BS. Air is free and so is water (well legally).


You've never bought bottled water or seen a man on an oxygen tank? Everything has a cost; get it through your head now, it'll save you trouble later. It doesn't matter how diffused or hidden that cost is, there is a physical iron clad cost to doing anything and everything. There is a cost just for existing and if you don't want to pay that cost you'll die.

Quote:
 

The MNC psyiopaths don't see it that why even though it cleary states in the UN charter of rights and fundmental freedoms it is. It's called the right to life.


Sure, you've got a right to life, but you don't have a right to food, water, shelter, medical care, etc... Its up to you to maintain and sustain your own life without stealing someone else's resources to do so.

Quote:
 

Unfourtunatly this happened in a South American country where there water was sold to a MNC and then charged back to them for over half their income. The government thought it was going to cut corners and "save them a buck". It saved the government millions but cost the citizens everything. Good ol' capatilism, killing off the poor and making the rich richer.


There wasn't anything capitalistic about that at all. Do you know how I know? The government was involved. Capitalism exists apart from the government because capitalism is all about non-coercion and the government is inherently coercive. Sounds to me like good ole big government mandated socialism is to blame for the plight you described in such vague detail.

Quote:
 

The citizens than revolted and kicked the government out. The MNC than sued the previous government for indangerment of that corporations "life". The irony of that is they were indangering the lives of thousands of people who couldn't afford water.


The corporation has no power, the government has the power. Blame the right party.

Quote:
 


I've already explained why this is a joke; simply posting said joke in response isn't a rebuttle, its on the verge of ultimate lazyness. Tell me, how do you have a right to something that has to be produced? If everyone has a right to a gallon of water what happens when there isn't a gallon of water for everyone to have each? How then is your precious "right" maintained when shortages rear their head?

Quote:
 

This is why I can'y stand bottled water. The ultimate product of lazyness. It's f'ing tapwater in a plastic bottle that produces cancer (if the bottle has a recycle symbol with anything over 4 means the plastic decomposes faster putting by products of the plastic into the water.) and wastes oil. If you believe it comes from a spring or a glacier you're just naive. What's more cost efficiant? Free tap water or a million dollar extracting project? Check please!


Sitting in judgment of others much? I don't drink bottled water because its expensive, but if someone else wants to I could care less.

Quote:
 

Oh and Falcon if nothing is free than why do you believe in the freedom of the U.S?


I believe in the freedom of the individual not that some resources are or should be "free." (btw, I hope you were joking here and not asking a serious question)

Quote:
 

Falcon
 
Why would a truly democratic government work perfectly? If the majority rules then any tyrannical despotic action that the majority wanted to undertake would be allowed. The perfect system is one which protects the rights of all the people and constrains the power of the government at the same time. The Constitution is the closest thing to that perfection that man has ever crafted.


Pfft, the Canadaian Charter of Rights and Freedoms comes closer. (Our Constituation can be ammended) The perfect democratic government would be one of direct democracy, that is to say no f'ing middle man. That way you can't corrupt it as easily (you could tamper the connection but better than a middle man).


Most of the corrupting influences on the government come from the common man, not the middle man because everyone wants their share of the pie. Having a direct democracy would just inflate that problem; the majority would conspire to rob everyone else and the end result would be civil strife, anarchy, and ineffective government. Can you imagine millions of people trying to engage in direct democracy? The government is simply too complex and large. Sometimes swift decisions are needed that you don't have time to deliberate in Congress, let alone in the nation at large.

Quote:
 

If a majority ruled why the hell would they want a one ruler who just looked after the minority? If the majority wanted something why the hell would you not want it?


Maybe the majority decides I need to die for herasy or because I look different. I think I'll try to veto that one.

Quote:
 

Why do people think they know better than other people? It's called a supiorority complex.


I'll rest in the fact that you are right now giving my opinions equal weight and value to your own. Thank you.

Quote:
 

  And only people who have are insecurities have this because they don't feel equal to others, when in reality they are. We are all equal, we all have strengths and weaknesses. People over think their weaknesses and compensate by gaining power from the weaknesses of others. (I.E manipulating people by their weaknesses). Such as government promising material things for their citizen in return for the power over them.


If you realize its bad for the government to promise material things in order to bribe the citizenry then why are you in favor of Article III of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? Don't you realize that it is promising material things to the people?

"Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control."

Quote:
 

Falcon
 
Don't be rediculous, first of all, communist states still have money or some form of credit used to allocate society's resources to individuals in proper amounts


No just past communist countries. I don't think you're a psychic (because that's against Christianity) so you can't tell the future. Saying communism is bad is not a fact. It's an opinion. A fact is accepted collectivly, an opinion can be shared by a majority but there may be minority that opposes it. The sky infact is not blue but that rather comes from light refracting off the gases present.


Bottom line: MNCs are destroying our world.


That's backward thinking. We know things based on what has happened, not based on our fantasies about what might happen in the future, especially when said fantasies are not based on anything other than the power of strong wishing. Communism has murdered hundreds of millions of people, it has wrecked the lifes of countless millions or billions more by subjecting them to tyranny, poverty, and other nightmarish situations. Capitalism on the other hand has produced every first world nation currently existing, and the closer the adherence to pure capitalism the richer and more prosperous the nation is. Irrational hatred of freedom, which is what capitalism is, simply boggles the mind. You've drunk the Kool-Aide.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Politics and Religion · Next Topic »
Add Reply

Theme Made by Sionthede of the IFSZ.