Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Exit Mundi Forums. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Lie
Topic Started: Jan 20 2007, 02:58 PM (1,394 Views)
Falcon
Member Avatar
Apocalyptic Usher
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
China isn't as communist as it used to be, but it is an example of how communism works in the real world as opposed to the theory of communism. Please don't start a "it isn't communism if it failed" because real world communism always fails.

[][][] - Chinese culture survived under communism, but unless zero has some new magical [][][] only meaning then you can't say that there hasn't been any change.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
严加华
Member Avatar
Magister Ludicrous
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Falcon
Jan 29 2007, 11:28 AM
China isn't as communist as it used to be, but it is an example of how communism works in the real world as opposed to the theory of communism. Please don't start a "it isn't communism if it failed" because real world communism always fails.

[][][] - Chinese culture survived under communism, but unless zero has some new magical [][][] only meaning then you can't say that there hasn't been any change.

The world's lowest concentration of communists is in the Chinese Communist Party. China isn't a prime example of communist failure because it never was communist. It barely lasted a decade as socialist, for Smurf!'s sake!

Communism is so entirely alien in principle to Chinese culture it was inevitable that it would never get a true foothold in this country. In 1949 the only thing that happened was Orwell's switch of middle and upper class. The same switch of upper and middle classes which has dominated 5000 years of Chinese history, incidentally.

When I say nothing in China has changed culturally, I mean literally nothing has changed (except for some name reassignment). I mean that a person taken from Tang-era China could be deposited in modern China and recognise everything that is not technological. They'd have more difficulty, in fact, manoeuvering across the street than manoeuvering the political landscape.

Everything the communists have done is basically an echo of things done by past rulers. Emancipation of women? Old hat. Lip service to the plight of peasants? Seen it. Done it. Mass deaths and murder in the name of some "new" social structure? Been there. Done that. Sneering at the mercantile classes while appreciating the wealth they generate? Old as Kongfuzi. Huge engineering projects in the name of face? Great Wall and Forbidden City ring any bells? Changing the writing system to "streamline" it and "eliminate confusion"? As old as the fucking QIN Dynasty. Enthusiastically embracing, then "Sinocising" foreign culture? Old as the hills.

The list goes on and on. There's nothing new here.
LC Sez: Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
DirkNL
Member Avatar
Horrific poster
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Falcon
Jan 29 2007, 04:28 AM
China isn't as communist as it used to be, but it is an example of how communism works in the real world as opposed to the theory of communism.  Please don't start a "it isn't communism if it failed" because real world communism always fails.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that. Anarchist Catalonia worked well during the Spanish Civil war (anarchist communist community, that was untill it got invaded), and the Soviet Union under the command of Lenin also did much better than it does now since the switch to KKKapitali$m.

-Dirk
Posted Image
Posted ImageHail the wallflipping monochrome computer thingyPosted Image
98% of the internet population has a Myspace. If you're part of the 2% that isn't an emo bastard, copy and paste this into your sig.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Falcon
Member Avatar
Apocalyptic Usher
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
[][][] - I wouldn't equate what Mao did with any other period in Chinese history, but if your definition is that loose then have it your way.

Dirk - Anarchist Catalonia did not "work well" by any stretch of the imagination, that it functioned at all for a brief span of time when the workers were motivated by a war is hardly meaingful. Lennin's USSR didn't work well either, it worked on par with any other system that reduces the individual to little more than a slave of the state. Not to mention that Lenin had to back off of some communist policy(the "retreat from communism" plan), like forbidding peasents to sell their food products, in order to improve the economy. Furthermore, there has been no switch to capitalism in Russia. Russia continues to rank poorly in economic freedom. http://www.cato.org/pubs/efw/efw2006/efw2006-3-l-z.pdf
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
DirkNL
Member Avatar
Horrific poster
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Hmm... turns out you didn't assume 'working well' to be a relative thing. Anyways, Anarchist Catalonia was founded in a civil war and was under attack. How much harder can it be to sustain a newly founded state in such conditions? The answer: it can't. Objective? Don't think so.

-Dirk
Posted Image
Posted ImageHail the wallflipping monochrome computer thingyPosted Image
98% of the internet population has a Myspace. If you're part of the 2% that isn't an emo bastard, copy and paste this into your sig.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Katastrof
Member Avatar
One Of The Four Horseman
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
No Lennin's communism did work well, he over threw the government installed a new one and brought equallity among the people. It's after the time we get into Stalin then communism started to fall apart. Not only did Stalin get rid of intellectuals, he also got rid of any of his fellow party memebers that had a clue on what Communism acuttally was. And if he had anymore good comunisits among the ranks he got rid of them in The Great Purge...
Posted Image

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero"(Seize the day put no trust in tomorrow)
~ Horace
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
DirkNL
Member Avatar
Horrific poster
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
And Stalin wasn't a real communist-instead of giving the capital to the people (as in true communism), he took the capital. That's presently known as crony capitalism.

-Dirk
Posted Image
Posted ImageHail the wallflipping monochrome computer thingyPosted Image
98% of the internet population has a Myspace. If you're part of the 2% that isn't an emo bastard, copy and paste this into your sig.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Falcon
Member Avatar
Apocalyptic Usher
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Quote:
 
Hmm... turns out you didn't assume 'working well' to be a relative thing. Anyways, Anarchist Catalonia was founded in a civil war and was under attack. How much harder can it be to sustain a newly founded state in such conditions? The answer: it can't. Objective? Don't think so.

-Dirk


So what if it was founded in a civil war or was under attack? You haven't shown that it "worked well," at all. It certainly hasn't been shown to work as well as other systems, even other systems in similar circumstances, it didn't last any length of time to guage long term effects, and similar systems have always failed miserably.

Katastrof

Quote:
 

No Lennin's communism did work well, he over threw the government installed a new one and brought equallity among the people. It's after the time we get into Stalin then communism started to fall apart. Not only did Stalin get rid of intellectuals, he also got rid of any of his fellow party memebers that had a clue on what Communism acuttally was. And if he had anymore good comunisits among the ranks he got rid of them in The Great Purge...


Lenin purged people too: "Scholars estimate that between 1918-21 up to 200,000 were executed. In May 1919, there were 16,000 people in labor camps based on the old Tsarist katorga labor camps, and in September 1921 there were more than 70,000.[15] This system later was transformed into the Gulags."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Leni..._the_Red_Terror

The government that lenin brought did have equality though. All the people except the high ranking communists were slaves before the state, repressed, without liberty, mere chattle for the state.

"The Cheka was created immediately after the October Revolution, during the first days of Bolshevik government. It replaced the Tsarist Okhranka. The agency, established in December of 1917 with the ostensible purpose of investigating counter-revolution and sabotage, soon began mass arrests, imprisonments, and executions of "enemies of the people", targeting "class enemies" such as the bourgeoisie, members of the clergy, and political opponents of the new regime. Cheka played a role in the suppression of the Kronstadt rebellion in 1921, and orchestrated the campaign of repression that came to be known as "Red Terror".

In 1922, the Cheka was transformed to the State Political Administration or GPU, a section of the NKVD of the Russian SFSR."

http://www.answers.com/topic/cheka

"By 1922, Lenin had eliminated all organized opposition and had silenced hostile factions within the party. In fact, Lenin had set up a dictatorship of the Communist party, which controlled the hierarchy of local, regional, and central soviets. He retained the post of chairman of the Council of People's Commissars and was a member of the ruling Politburo of the Communist party until his death."

http://www.answers.com/topic/vladimir-i-lenin
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
严加华
Member Avatar
Magister Ludicrous
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Falcon
Jan 29 2007, 10:42 PM
[][][] - I wouldn't equate what Mao did with any other period in Chinese history, but if your definition is that loose then have it your way.

This just displays your ignorance of Chinese history. Which is not a surprise given your ignorance of most things that don't fit your narrow "Amerika ueber Alles" (including that fantasy novel you worship) viewpoint.

Emperors in the past have frequently caused large numbers of people to die through idiotic social goals and projects. (Great Leap Forward.) Emperors in the past have frequently attempted to eradicate the culture and learning of previous dynasties. (Cultural Revolution.) Emperors have always been personality cults. (Mao Zedong Thought.) Any claim that the communists have been in some way special compared to prior dynasties is a claim grounded in total, abject ignorance.
LC Sez: Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Falcon
Member Avatar
Apocalyptic Usher
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Ñϼӻª
Jan 30 2007, 02:39 AM
Falcon
Jan 29 2007, 10:42 PM
[][][] - I wouldn't equate what Mao did with any other period in Chinese history, but if your definition is that loose then have it your way.

This just displays your ignorance of Chinese history. Which is not a surprise given your ignorance of most things that don't fit your narrow "Amerika ueber Alles" (including that fantasy novel you worship) viewpoint.

Emperors in the past have frequently caused large numbers of people to die through idiotic social goals and projects. (Great Leap Forward.) Emperors in the past have frequently attempted to eradicate the culture and learning of previous dynasties. (Cultural Revolution.) Emperors have always been personality cults. (Mao Zedong Thought.) Any claim that the communists have been in some way special compared to prior dynasties is a claim grounded in total, abject ignorance.

Then nothing has changed in the history of the world. Kings across the globe all attempted to accomplish social goals and projects, killing many in the process. They've all tried to wipe out other cultures and opponents that they've overthrown. They've all been personality cults with their divine right to rule, or the God-Emperors of Rome.
The communists did those things, which you can loosely associate with the past, on a grand new scale for a grand new ideal. Drawing some meager parallel is not the same as proving that nothing has changed. If this is your standard then it is no standard at all, which is typical of you. You don't like to be pinned down onto anything too substantial.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
严加华
Member Avatar
Magister Ludicrous
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Falcon
Jan 30 2007, 12:42 PM
The communists did those things, which you can loosely associate with the past, on a grand new scale for a grand new ideal. Drawing some meager parallel is not the same as proving that nothing has changed. If this is your standard then it is no standard at all, which is typical of you. You don't like to be pinned down onto anything too substantial.

A grand new scale suited to the grand new technologies available to coordinate things on said grand new scale. And the "grand new ideal"? You can find many of its concepts expressed in things like the Yellow Turbans (the ones who sparked the downfall of the Han). Damn, you can find some of the most painfully accurate criticisms of Chinese nobility -- stuff that could be directly lifted from Mao Zedong Thought! -- in a novel that's four hundred years old!

The only reason there wasn't a Great Leap Forward under, say, the Song was because there'd have been absolutely no way to arrange for such a thing. Had the Song Dynasty had the technological tools the Republic and later People's Republic had they'd have done just as many entirely assinine and destructive things. And every other excess of the Mao Dynasty you can find done to equal or even greater levels in prior dynasties.

Chinese culture has not changed one iota. As I said before, a random person taken from Tang-era China deposited in modern China would have more difficulty navigating across a road (because of those fearsome monsters running up and down the trail) than they would have navigating the social systems. A few new titles for exactly the same position and they're golden.
LC Sez: Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Falcon
Member Avatar
Apocalyptic Usher
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
You say a lot, but that doesn't make it true. The Great Leap Forward was designed to transfrom China from an agrarian economy to an industrialized economy by having the government take over agriculture. It was what amounted to a spin off of the Soviet 5 year plan, but ineptly carried out.

"By the completion of the first 5 Year Economic Plan in 1957, Mao had come to doubt that the path to socialism that had been taken by the Soviet Union was appropriate for China. He was critical of Khrushchev's reversal of Stalinist policies and alarmed by the uprisings that had taken place in East Germany, Poland and Hungary, and the perception that the USSR was seeking "Peaceful coexistence" with the Western powers. Mao had become convinced that China should follow its own radical path towards a Communist utopia."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_leap_forward

You keep claiming that this is no different, but you've not supported that with any evidence. On the other hand:

"An experimental commune was established at Chayashan in Henan in April 1958. Here for the first time private plots were entirely abolished and communal kitchens were introduced. At the Politburo meetings in August 1958, it was decided that these people's communes would become the new form of economic and political organisation throughout rural China. Astonishingly for such a dramatic social change, by the end of the year approximately 25,000 communes had been set-up, each with an average of 5,000 households. The communes were relatively self sufficient co-operatives where wages and money were replaced by work points. Besides agriculture they incorporated some light industry and construction projects."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_leap_forward

If your idea of the same includes reorganizing society into communes and abolishing currency then I guess everything is static.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
DirkNL
Member Avatar
Horrific poster
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Falcon
Jan 30 2007, 01:10 AM
Quote:
 
Hmm... turns out you didn't assume 'working well' to be a relative thing. Anyways, Anarchist Catalonia was founded in a civil war and was under attack. How much harder can it be to sustain a newly founded state in such conditions? The answer: it can't. Objective? Don't think so.

-Dirk


So what if it was founded in a civil war or was under attack? You haven't shown that it "worked well," at all. It certainly hasn't been shown to work as well as other systems, even other systems in similar circumstances, it didn't last any length of time to guage long term effects, and similar systems have always failed miserably.

Are you looking for another argument? Because if you are, I'm out.

-Dirk
Posted Image
Posted ImageHail the wallflipping monochrome computer thingyPosted Image
98% of the internet population has a Myspace. If you're part of the 2% that isn't an emo bastard, copy and paste this into your sig.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Falcon
Member Avatar
Apocalyptic Usher
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
DirkNL
Jan 30 2007, 01:15 PM
Falcon
Jan 30 2007, 01:10 AM
Quote:
 
Hmm... turns out you didn't assume 'working well' to be a relative thing. Anyways, Anarchist Catalonia was founded in a civil war and was under attack. How much harder can it be to sustain a newly founded state in such conditions? The answer: it can't. Objective? Don't think so.

-Dirk


So what if it was founded in a civil war or was under attack? You haven't shown that it "worked well," at all. It certainly hasn't been shown to work as well as other systems, even other systems in similar circumstances, it didn't last any length of time to guage long term effects, and similar systems have always failed miserably.

Are you looking for another argument? Because if you are, I'm out.

-Dirk

Just looking for someone to support their claims a little bit...
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
DirkNL
Member Avatar
Horrific poster
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Lets see, I posted a WP link, I explained what I said, and you still think it 'needs more support'. I'd like to give you something to support: the existence of God.

-Dirk
Posted Image
Posted ImageHail the wallflipping monochrome computer thingyPosted Image
98% of the internet population has a Myspace. If you're part of the 2% that isn't an emo bastard, copy and paste this into your sig.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Philosophy and Ethics · Next Topic »
Add Reply

Theme Made by Sionthede of the IFSZ.