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Lie
Topic Started: Jan 20 2007, 02:58 PM (1,392 Views)
Katastrof
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One Of The Four Horseman
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Falcon
Jan 30 2007, 01:17 PM
DirkNL
Jan 30 2007, 01:15 PM
Falcon
Jan 30 2007, 01:10 AM
Quote:
 
Hmm... turns out you didn't assume 'working well' to be a relative thing. Anyways, Anarchist Catalonia was founded in a civil war and was under attack. How much harder can it be to sustain a newly founded state in such conditions? The answer: it can't. Objective? Don't think so.

-Dirk


So what if it was founded in a civil war or was under attack? You haven't shown that it "worked well," at all. It certainly hasn't been shown to work as well as other systems, even other systems in similar circumstances, it didn't last any length of time to guage long term effects, and similar systems have always failed miserably.

Are you looking for another argument? Because if you are, I'm out.

-Dirk

Just looking for someone to support their claims a little bit...

Support claims? Is that just another phrase for "giving up"?
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"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero"(Seize the day put no trust in tomorrow)
~ Horace
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That guy on the forum
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Planning World Domination
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Katastrof
Jan 30 2007, 02:03 PM
Falcon
Jan 30 2007, 01:17 PM
DirkNL
Jan 30 2007, 01:15 PM
Falcon
Jan 30 2007, 01:10 AM
Quote:
 
Hmm... turns out you didn't assume 'working well' to be a relative thing. Anyways, Anarchist Catalonia was founded in a civil war and was under attack. How much harder can it be to sustain a newly founded state in such conditions? The answer: it can't. Objective? Don't think so.

-Dirk


So what if it was founded in a civil war or was under attack? You haven't shown that it "worked well," at all. It certainly hasn't been shown to work as well as other systems, even other systems in similar circumstances, it didn't last any length of time to guage long term effects, and similar systems have always failed miserably.

Are you looking for another argument? Because if you are, I'm out.

-Dirk

Just looking for someone to support their claims a little bit...

Support claims? Is that just another phrase for "giving up"?

Take this argument quote pyramid somewhere else. This is for philosophy, not politics.
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Falcon
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Apocalyptic Usher
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What's the point of arguing a philosophy based on pure theory when we have examples of the philosophy working in the real world where its results can be analyzed objectively? I don't think, in such a case, it is inappropriate to ask that arguments based on applied philosophies be supported with some evidence.
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That guy on the forum
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Planning World Domination
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Falcon
Jan 30 2007, 11:05 PM
What's the point of arguing a philosophy based on pure theory when we have examples of the philosophy working in the real world where its results can be analyzed objectively? I don't think, in such a case, it is inappropriate to ask that arguments based on applied philosophies be supported with some evidence.

I'm not trying to say we shouldn't argue about the philosophy, just tone it down.
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严加华
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Magister Ludicrous
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Falcon
Jan 30 2007, 09:02 PM
You say a lot, but that doesn't make it true. The Great Leap Forward was designed to transfrom China from an agrarian economy to an industrialized economy by having the government take over agriculture.


Your point being.... what? It was a half-baked social plan that resulted in mass death. Like every other half-baked social plan throughout all of fucking Chinese history. The only difference was the scale and the scale was the result of superior technology enabling such a scale of death and misery..

Quote:
 
If your idea of the same includes reorganizing society into communes and abolishing currency then I guess everything is static.

My idea of "the same" is "cock-eyed leadership completely devoid of common sense goes out and fucks things up in the name of some bizarre ideology consisting mainly of repudiating the previous rules and causes wide-spread misery".

The cycles of Chinese history are so monotonously regular that I can give you within about 20 years the date when this government will fall and be replaced. Qin pulled together something that wasn't really a country into a nation, then fell rapidly and gave rise to Han. Han lasted a long time, then fell and led to fractious warring until put together by the Sui. The Sui, like the Qin, was short-lived and fell to the Tang, who lasted a long time. And fell, causing another cycle of warring until pulled out of it by the Yuan (foreign rule). The Yuan lasted a short time and were followed by the Ming (and by the foreign Qing) for long periods of stability.

So what's next? I'll give you a hint: Taiping, civil war, Republic, foreign invasion, People's Republic. The People's Republic is just the "Mao Dynasty" -- the post-strife Dynasty that pulls the country back together after periods of chaos and then falls rapidly. And just like the Qin introduced major social changes (imperial system), so too did the Sui (land equalisation -- *gasp* to reduce the gap between rich and poor, no less!), the Yuan (famine-fighting measures, diversity measures) and now the People's Republic ("socialism with Chinese characteristics" to quote Deng Xiaoping to the eternal amusement of expats).

Now the last round of chaos was much quicker than were the periods of antiquity, but again this is the accelleration borne of improved technology and organisational skills. So instead of having two-plus centuries of chaos before being pulled out of it, there was instead about 50 years of it. This also means that the People's Republic will likely fall proportionately more quickly. My prediction is for it to fall in another 50-70 years. To be replaced, again, by a more civilised and longer-lasting "Dynasty".

And, at last, I figured out what your problem is. You are utterly incapable of abstraction. You cannot see parallels in history (in both this case and in military tactics and strategy) because you're so focused on the details you're not seeing the overarching theme or possibly not even capable of seeing same. Which is why literalist Christianity appeals to you so much. It's all you can understand.
LC Sez: Posted Image
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Falcon
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Apocalyptic Usher
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Oh no, I pay attention to the details and facts instead of obcessing over generalizations too broad to have any useful meaning. Don't get me wrong though, I can and do deal with abstractions when they're useful, but this isn't one of those cases. You know you're too abstract when all of history is whittled down to revolving cycles. Its true, broadly, but it isn't helpful to understanding where we are now in relation to where we once were.
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