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Faith
Topic Started: Jan 21 2007, 06:57 AM (918 Views)
Killer Bee
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Quote:
 
Faith is doing something without any proof to back it up it up exsept maybe a gut feeling while false hope is believing that you can do something because there is a chance it might work.


I would say just "hope" is believing that you can do something because there is a chance it might work. "False" hope would be beleiving in something that isn't real or beleiving in something that is more than likely going to fail.
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Apocalypse Next Thursday
Disgraced Dictator
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Katastrof
Feb 12 2007, 09:08 PM
ANT
 
To me, faith is what humanity uses to keep from the suicide option listed on the website.


You are confusing faith with false hope, good sir. Faith is doing something without any proof to back it up it up exsept maybe a gut feeling while false hope is believing that you can do something because there is a chance it might work. Welcome by the way to EM ANT.

Quote:
 
You are confusing faith with false hope, good sir. Faith is doing something without any proof to back it up it up exsept maybe a gut feeling while false hope is believing that you can do something because there is a chance it might work. Welcome by the way to EM ANT.


Thank you, thank you.

Yes, I do believe you are right, my apologies. I merely meant to relay that people often use intangible thoughts and such to allow them the empath towards humanity needed in order to continue their daily lives without succumbing to deep, destructive depression. (I sound far too much like V at times.)

Then again, what makes hope false? Is it faith when a solution brings positive results, and false hope when struck with failure? Keep in mind, most people subjectively agree that the "winners" often write the history books, and so what is seen as false hope by one, could have been another's faith in their government/deity/tuna sandwich.

However, there is a caveat: at what point does faith BECOME false hope? What level of insanity must be achieved before a passionate belief in an ideal becomes a fanatic's wet dream? Where does the line between Idea and Ishbal (Full Metal Alchemist reference, for those not in the know), begin to blur, and the scion becomes the scientist?

I am vividly aware of your separation of faith and false hope, and respectfully acknowledge the distinction. However, I appear to have ignored it for the duration of my thoughts. My apologies to you.

Excellent points, Katastrof. I look forward to your rebuttal, and hope to bring more to the table next round!

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"I contend that we are both atheists. I simply believe in one less god than you. When you realize why you reject all other gods, then you will understand why I reject yours." - Unknown
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Katastrof
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One Of The Four Horseman
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Killer Bee
 
I would say just "hope" is believing that you can do something because there is a chance it might work. "False" hope would be beleiving in something that isn't real or beleiving in something that is more than likely going to fail.


I was reffering to Ant's:
Quote:
 
To me, faith is what humanity uses to keep from the suicide option listed on the website.

which to me would be false hope.

ANT
 
Thank you, thank you.

Yes, I do believe you are right, my apologies. I merely meant to relay that people often use intangible thoughts and such to allow them the empath towards humanity needed in order to continue their daily lives without succumbing to deep, destructive depression. (I sound far too much like V at times.)

Then again, what makes hope false? Is it faith when a solution brings positive results, and false hope when struck with failure? Keep in mind, most people subjectively agree that the "winners" often write the history books, and so what is seen as false hope by one, could have been another's faith in their government/deity/tuna sandwich.

However, there is a caveat: at what point does faith BECOME false hope? What level of insanity must be achieved before a passionate belief in an ideal becomes a fanatic's wet dream? Where does the line between Idea and Ishbal (Full Metal Alchemist reference, for those not in the know), begin to blur, and the scion becomes the scientist?

I am vividly aware of your separation of faith and false hope, and respectfully acknowledge the distinction. However, I appear to have ignored it for the duration of my thoughts. My apologies to you.

Excellent points, Katastrof. I look forward to your rebuttal, and hope to bring more to the table next round!


This isn't going to be really a rebuttal but I'll just answer some of your open questions. Also you neither have to apologize, since I don't hate most people who don't agree with me. I find its more intresting when you get an arguement going. There may be one person though that I have a general dislike for...not hate but dislike...

Anyways on to the Questions (props for the V reference):

I believe faith does not become hope because faith is having a belief in something while hope is having a belief in something happenning. They are similiar but parallel. Hope becomes false hope on two occasions:

1) When facing a situation that has had hope, but now it is entirely impossible for that situation to turn into what you were hoping for. When I mean impossible I mean impossible. Like if you had the hope of survivinga strain of the Black Plague that kills upon infection but now you have just found your first black abecuss on your armpit...

2) Hope is false when it used as a cover for impending doom. Eg: When a government says everything is okay and the invaders will be gone shortly but in reality the invaders are almost have enough momentum to occupy the whole country in a matter of days. In short, a distortion of reality that gives hope to hopeless individuals.

Faith can't really be false since faith in anything is neither negative nor positive, its all percepective.

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"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero"(Seize the day put no trust in tomorrow)
~ Horace
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Killer Bee
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Apocalypse Next Thursday
Feb 12 2007, 10:01 PM
Then again, what makes hope false? Is it faith when a solution brings positive results, and false hope when struck with failure? Keep in mind, most people subjectively agree that the "winners" often write the history books, and so what is seen as false hope by one, could have been another's faith in their government/deity/tuna sandwich.

However, there is a caveat: at what point does faith BECOME false hope? What level of insanity must be achieved before a passionate belief in an ideal becomes a fanatic's wet dream? Where does the line between Idea and Ishbal (Full Metal Alchemist reference, for those not in the know), begin to blur, and the scion becomes the scientist?


Can faith and hope even be one in the same? When someone is "faithful" it means loyalty and having the idea that no matter what, their desires will be met in the end. To the Christian faith, they will end up sitting with the father in Heaven because it is promised to them by the Bible. Hope is the same Christians wanting all their loved ones to be saved by Christ so they will join them before the father. Hope is more of a desire, not following an idea or principle.

As far as faith becomming false hope, it would depend on the situitation. If you have "blind" faith and nothing will shake your faith, even hard evidence or fact that what you have faith in isn't correct, then you're already heading down the road towards "false hope". How far would you go for an idea? Is the idea really true or is it based on principles you believe in? If you find yourself asking these questions towards your "faith" frequently, it's a sure sign you won't fall victim to "false" hope. False hope is knowing your faith is misplaced watching your world come crashing down around you yet still holding onto faith because it gives a false sense of security. This is where "faithfulness" becomes "fanaticism", where either faith will bring you your desires or you'll die trying to make it do so.
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Taslan
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That guy on the forum
Jan 21 2007, 06:57 AM
is it ok to belive in things you can't prove? if you belive in faith, is there a line you wouldn't cross or do you belive in everything? Discuss.

I belive in reasonable faith. If someone I trust tells me something that happened (like my other friend did something they heard a news story) I would not be able to prove thm right but I would still belive in them. But I don't belive in things that I have never heard of before that seam impossible. I do belive there are something things we don't know about in this world, but if some guy told be about one with no proof I would not belive them.

What's wrong with being a Zealot?

If you're a Zealot of rules that are always in the right, then by God (or Lucifer), please, do. Be as faithful as a well trained dog.

Ah, the catch-22 in that phrase is so astounding...

- Taslan
"Who was the most beautiful Seraph in Heaven?"
And I reply, "Seraph Michael?"
"No."
And I reply, "Seraph Samael?"
"No."
And I reply in finality; "Then surely, Seraph Seraphiel."
"No.
The most beautiful Angel in Heaven was,
Seraph Lucifer
And as He fell, His feathers departed
Thusly, were the Souls of man and woman
Tis the reason why He wishes so desperately for
His Lost Feathers... His Wings...
To fly
Back Home."
-God to Taslan
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