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Creating the perfect country; worth it?
Topic Started: May 3 2007, 09:22 PM (1,921 Views)
Brutus
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Many coutries have tried it, many leaders have tried it and most of these men have become infamous, such as Adolf Hitler.

But where they onto somthing special?

To create the Perfect state you need Get rid of (probably by killing) of all those who are not suitable for or upto the standards of the new State. you need to ensure that the population are intelligent and physically fit. you need to keep crime levels down to such a level where crime is vurtually non existant and you need to make sure that everyone has a job, a house and the best standard of living possible.

and in this process you definatly will have sacrificed democracy.

Now as much as people hate to say it, Hitler would have created such a country, but the question i am asking is,

Does the means of creating this nation justify the result? is the death toll and the price payed worth the perfect country that is the result?
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piercehawkeye45
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Utopia.

Look up definition for that word to get my answer.
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Rhas BloodBear
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We all know what it is.



We should try it with our nations.
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BohemianG
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Brutus
May 3 2007, 10:22 PM
Now as much as people hate to say it, Hitler would have created such a country, but the question i am asking is,

Does the means of creating this nation justify the result? is the death toll and the price payed worth the perfect country that is the result?

Hitler didn't get anywhere near to creating a 'perfect country', unless you mean one with an economy reliant on war (or impending war) that could collapse at any moment, an inefficient command system ruled over by someone without a clue, and not to mention the certain race of people he ordered his goons to ruthlessly persecute (and whose being alive was important for the economic success of that country). Hitler wasn't all that. Really. He did lose WWII, after all. People seem to forget that.

The perfect nation is one in which everyone is happy in my book. You don't get that by killing people.
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Normandy took more balls than Vietnam, it took more balls than Korea, it took more balls than facing mustard gas on a battlefield full of giant ditches with nowhere to run. It took more balls than the world will ever be able to ante up again.
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Faust
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You can not create a society where everyone is happy no matter what measures you use, what ideals you strive to achieve or what actually happens. It's simply not possible. The closest to an Utopia would be a Nation of One., and only if that person actually likes being the only human in existence .


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Does the means of creating this nation justify the result? is the death toll and the price payed worth the perfect country that is the result?

I'm of the opinion that a perfect nation can not be created, and as consequence of that belief no price is adequate. I'm strictly against paying such a high blood price for something I'm convinced I will not get.
On the other hand a little sacrifice for making your nation a little bit better is acceptable. But to commit such atrocities for nothing is beyond what I am willing to tolerate.
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DirkNL
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Tolerance is the keyword here. True utopia is impossible (it isn't called utopia for no reason - ou=no, topia=place), but your best shot would be as much economic equality (to prevent crime) and as much social freedom (to not give the people the feeling of being oppressed) as possible, with a tolerant population. Note thoughg that the transition should be very gradual, or else you'll get chaos. Call me a commie, but that's just my two cents.

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Killer Bee
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Quote:
 
To create the Perfect state you need Get rid of (probably by killing) of all those who are not suitable for or upto the standards of the new State. you need to ensure that the population are intelligent and physically fit. you need to keep crime levels down to such a level where crime is vurtually non existant and you need to make sure that everyone has a job, a house and the best standard of living possible.


This sounds like Hitler's theory to a "perfect" blonde hair, blue eyed state of utopia. Lets just kill the weak, old, sick, fat unacceptable filth of society. There is a big problem here, guess what it is.

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Now as much as people hate to say it, Hitler would have created such a country


You're NOT serious....... If you are, go read (in depth) what Hitler did to try and create this "perfect" dream he had. I'm not being a smartass, but seriously, go do some indepth research on Nazi Germany. Upon doing your research, do you seriously think Germany was on it's way to utopia?

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Does the means of creating this nation justify the result? is the death toll and the price payed worth the perfect country that is the result?


Unless you're into being dictated over every decision and action you make, then absolutley not. What if you had a child born with a slight deformity, then would you agree to have it executed by the state to better serve your "perfect" nation?

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BohemianG
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Faust
May 4 2007, 09:28 AM
You can not create a society where everyone is happy no matter what measures you use, what ideals you strive to achieve or what actually happens. It's simply not possible.

I didn't say it was possible, just that that would be the perfect nation IF it were possible. Which, er, it isn't.
Mister 'Balls' Sinister
 
Normandy took more balls than Vietnam, it took more balls than Korea, it took more balls than facing mustard gas on a battlefield full of giant ditches with nowhere to run. It took more balls than the world will ever be able to ante up again.
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NeoAegis
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I think that you can make a country where everyone is happy, but that would require some massive brainwashing.


I wouldn't call that perfect.
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BohemianG
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NeoAegis
May 4 2007, 09:09 PM
I think that you can make a country where everyone is happy, but that would require some massive brainwashing.


I wouldn't call that perfect.

In the style of Brave New World. An ironic utopia.
Mister 'Balls' Sinister
 
Normandy took more balls than Vietnam, it took more balls than Korea, it took more balls than facing mustard gas on a battlefield full of giant ditches with nowhere to run. It took more balls than the world will ever be able to ante up again.
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NeoAegis
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Perhaps you could make one if you could completely control immigration, and be highly selective. Hell, maybe you could go directly for the genes to check if the individual is compatible with the country.

It'd smack too much elitism for my tastes, though.
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piercehawkeye45
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NeoAegis
May 4 2007, 04:30 PM
Perhaps you could make one if you could completely control immigration, and be highly selective. Hell, maybe you could go directly for the genes to check if the individual is compatible with the country.

Everyone thinks differently so the society won't be a eutopia (notice spelling) for everyone.
Dropped the atomic bomb let them know that it's real
Speak soft with a big stick do what I say or be killed
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I have found the enemy and he is us.
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NeoAegis
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piercehawkeye45
May 5 2007, 04:40 PM
NeoAegis
May 4 2007, 04:30 PM
Perhaps you could make one if you could completely control immigration, and be highly selective. Hell, maybe you could go directly for the genes to check if the individual is compatible with the country.

Everyone thinks differently so the society won't be a eutopia (notice spelling) for everyone.

Well, you'd be able to shift out the murderers and thieves...


I'm focusing more on compatibility rather than perfection.
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Brutus
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their was a south American country (i cannot remember which) which had a dictator sho decided he was going to try and create a perfect society, so he started killing off all who were poor, unintellifent and able to or not contributing to society, he wasn't doing it because he was evil, he was doing it because he knew that that was the first step that must be taken.

Hitler would have made a country that matched what i described exactly, he turned an economically collapsing country into a world superpower that came into a hairs width of taking control of the entire planet. He was an incredible peace time leader he just lacked the military mind to handle controling his own army. If he had listened to Eric von Manstein at the war table then we would all be speaking German.

but this thread isn't about hitler, he is just an example of what i am trying to say.


Quote:
 
go do some indepth research on Nazi Germany.


I know all about Nazi Germany, it is a subject i studied and it also interests me greatly and so i researched it myself, i just have a different view about it tham
most others, but don't get me wrong, i think what they were doing was disgusting to the point where i can't describe how evil it was using words but an Evil leader isn't neccesarily an unskilled one.
history is a bit of a hit and miss affair and their are alot of variables which you must make educated guesses on.

remember, to create a perfect society you don't really need to do any ethnic cleansing, that part is optional, but even without that.

does the end justify the means?
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Khan
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BohemianG
May 4 2007, 08:10 PM
NeoAegis
May 4 2007, 09:09 PM
I think that you can make a country where everyone is happy, but that would require some massive brainwashing.


I wouldn't call that perfect.

In the style of Brave New World. An ironic utopia.

brave New World doesn't seem to bad of a world for me.

I can even go far as saying billions of people on Earth would beg for it.
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