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Trading Rule & Guidelines - Read before trading
Topic Started: Jan 10 2012, 01:33 PM (3,198 Views)
Tollyman
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An integral part of this forum is the ability to trade with all sorts of people from all over the globe. While this allows members to obtain all types of cards that would be impossible to get it also exposes us to the horrors of scammers, unscrupulous traders and last but not least the ever reliable Postal Service!

As hosts of the forum we have felt it necessary to lay down a set of trading rules that members must agree to and also a list of tips and guidelines for safe trading. We hope that this will make the forum a safe and pleasurable environment to trade in.

Trading rules, which all members must agree to abide by before trading.

•All trading where one or both of the traders are under 13 must declared in the 'Under 13 Declaration Area' Click here section. This is the 'over 13' traders responsibility.
•Senders are always liable for traded items that get lost/damaged in the post unless explicitly agreed in the trade negotiation. If you can't agree to this please do not trade.
•All cards should be securely packaged and with sufficient packaging to prevent damage even if handled by the most clumsy postman.
•Keep all trade negotiation PM's until both sides of the trade are happy and have confirmed this by PM or feedback has been left.
•The deal must be fair unless both parties are aware of the imbalance, have agreed that this is OK and are over 16 years old.
•Do not harass or bully members into making a trade, younger members must not be pressured into making deals they are not happy, "No" means "No".
•PM trade spamming is not allowed
•Selling items is only allowed when the members have posted 100 times.
•Offer insured delivery do not assume normal post.


Trading guidelines, please follow these guidelines to minimise the chance of falling prey to scammers, unscrupulous traders and last but not least the ever reliable Postal Service!

•Always get a proof of postage when sending items in the post
•Use the valuations sections to ensure your trades are fair
•Do not post first to new members
•Look at members feedback to help decide if a user is likely to be a good trader
•Open a feedback thread for others to use to see if you are reliable.
•Avoid one sided trades it may be a scammer tempting you into a deal (greed is a bad thing!)
•PM a moderator or admin if you are worried about making a deal.
•Use stiff top loaders to ensure the safe delivery of high value cards
•Send using registered or insured delivery if you cannot afford to lose the cards you are sending, if they go missing you will the one to lose out.
•Put a return address on all packages sent in the post.
•Ask for proof especially when trading bigger value deals. Ask other party to show pictures or you tube video (with their name as well as cards) so you know the cards exist and in their possession.

Edited by Tollyman, Aug 8 2013, 10:38 AM.
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man_utd1979
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I think the selling is only allowed after 100 posts have been reached is a bit silly with all due respect. Btw this is my 100th post and will explain why, 10 posts and 30 minutes ago my sale post was deleted as 10 posts and 30 minutes ago i was not trustworthy enough to offer anything for sale, i haven't become a better person in 10 posts and 30 minutes than i was in the few years i have been subscribed to this forum. So what is the point of that ridiculous requirement? Everything else makes sense, but 100 posts? It means naught, proves nothing and just makes you ramble in threads for conversations sake like i am now.
Perhaps put a requirement of a year on the forum with "regular participation" rather than the 100 post stipulation. Well it's been 45 minutes and 10 posts now as i was laughing so hard i stopped for a cup of tea. Well done and do i get a medal for 100 posts as it appears to be somewhat of a grand achievement, the ballon d'or of card trading if you will.....
Cheers
Edited by man_utd1979, May 29 2015, 04:25 PM.
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Phild
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Its easy to laugh and joke and take the mick out the rules. Your idea of being a member for 12 months also has its downfall in that a member could join hardly post and then advertise items for sale, take the money never to be seen again.

Maybe we should stop people selling altogether unless the member pays for an advert. People seem to forget this forum was set up as a "trading" forum not a sales forum but Tollyman kindly allows people to sell on his forum but in order to prevent scammers coming along and scamming members and then having plenty of complaints he tried to make a rule that seemed okay to most to try and minimise any problems.

One of the biggest scams on here was done by a member of over 12 months standing who hopefully has now got their just desserts for it. That member joined in 2011 and has over 200 posts. Another member who also joined in 2011 has been removed after issues with trades, that member has over 300 posts.

When your posts were removed 30 minutes or so ago, did anyone know you were going to make more posts in that short space of time ? I haven't looked but were they just post tipping type posts which should also have been removed ?

Easy to criticise and take the mick out of those providing a platform for people like yourselves to improve your collection really isn't it without offering anything that hasn't already been considered so maybe no selling unless you put your hand in your pocket to pay for an advert but then as ebay shows even that is not guaranteed failsafe.

Anyone registering and making 100 posts in a short space of time would no doubt see the majority of them removed due to post tipping so to make 100 reasonable, sensible posts would take time and give members a chance to gauge whether they consider that member trustworthy or not.
Edited by Phild, May 29 2015, 06:51 PM.

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Brummie3
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To be fair Dylan only trying to make a constructive post. after all a forum is where people should be allowed to express an opinion? i think sometimes text on a computer screen can me misleading but i dont think dylan was trying to be a smart sod just think its a way to express a point without coming across to stern. if anything it should raise the idea of otherways to improve/alter the selling system.

I know where your coming from phill but I think its a Valid Point from Dylan which should be taken into consideration.
Edited by Brummie3, May 29 2015, 07:21 PM.
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Phild
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Having just seen the abusive post from Dylan on another forum then I think my post was quite lenient, I welcome Dylan to PM me if he has an issue with my post or I am quite happy to tackle it here online for the public to view. I'm not a 16 year old keyboard warrior, i'm a 45 year old bloke trying to help along with others Tollyman run a forum for people to enjoy and more than happy to stand my corner

My post was not OTT at all. Its a hard line to judge and anyone whether 1 post, 100 posts, 1 year or 1 day can become a scammer as we have seen by the two members I have mentioned which doesn't include those who we have found by reported pm's etc. The forum is not a hot bed of scammers by any means but only 1 or 2 can get a forum a bad reputation which is why we try to make sure this forum is not a problem for its members.

Theres a place and a way for people to try and help us run the forum which doesn't involve cheap petty jibes including the dig about Futera who do not speak for this forum or have any involement in it at all as i'm sure Tollyman will be happy to state when he gets online.
Edited by Phild, May 29 2015, 07:44 PM.

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Brummie3
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Phild
May 29 2015, 07:40 PM
Having just seen the abusive post from Dylan on another forum then I think my post was quite lenient, I welcome Dylan to PM me if he has an issue with my post or I am quite happy to tackle it here online for the public to view. I'm not a 16 year old keyboard warrior, i'm a 45 year old bloke trying to help along with others Tollyman run a forum for people to enjoy and more than happy to stand my corner

My post was not OTT at all. Its a hard line to judge and anyone whether 1 post, 100 posts, 1 year or 1 day can become a scammer as we have seen by the two members I have mentioned which doesn't include those who we have found by reported pm's etc. The forum is not a hot bed of scammers by any means but only 1 or 2 can get a forum a bad reputation which is why we try to make sure this forum is not a problem for its members.

Theres a place and a way for people to try and help us run the forum which doesn't involve cheap petty jibes including the dig about Futera who do not speak for this forum or have any involement in it at all as i'm sure Tollyman will be happy to state when he gets online.
Its a hard line to judge and anyone whether 1 post, 100 posts, 1 year or 1 day can become a scammer as we have seen by the two members I have mentioned which doesn't include those who we have found by reported pm's etc

Is that not the whole point of the issue in the first place is it not? and that post was in reaction to this one which again may have seen unsuitable but its connected to someone trying to make a point.

I disagree ..i think its was a bit OTT. all i said was no point shooting him straight down. if should at least raise the point of looking into how the selling system works.

Im not having a pop at you or either condoning anything that been said. Just merely expressing an opinion.
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Phild
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Exactly the point, its a hard line to judge so no matter what we try to do we are up against it but the point of the 100 posts it to try and put newbie would be scammers off as by removing their post tipping posts to try and get to that number it reduces the chance of them sticking around.

You may think it was ott thats fine, as you say its your opinion and I respect it and its maybe one possibly shared by others but having petty digs and then running to another forum to abuse us on here isn't going about things the right way either is it ?

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Brummie3
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Phild
May 29 2015, 08:08 PM
Exactly the point, its a hard line to judge so no matter what we try to do we are up against it but the point of the 100 posts it to try and put newbie would be scammers off as by removing their post tipping posts to try and get to that number it reduces the chance of them sticking around.

You may think it was ott thats fine, as you say its your opinion and I respect it and its maybe one possibly shared by others but having petty digs and then running to another forum to abuse us on here isn't going about things the right way either is it ?
yeah fair point mate. and probably wasnt but think its doesnt ully reflect dylan character as ive know him for a good while. a real good guy , think its bought out of frustration but i take your point on board and appreciate the communication on the matter.
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man_utd1979
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Phil - have been on many forums for many years and never had an issue, and yes was pretty frustrated at such a petty thing. I have not gained 1 card from this forum so you are wrong there. But i have chimed in with some valid topic to try and assist other collectors. Which is actually what i was doing for 9 of those last 10 posts, read them you will see. Yep the last one was over the top but out of frustration at wondering what the point of it all was. You even stated yourself issues with 200 and 350 plus posters, there is no point having that stipulation!
The problem with this particular forum is it's a bit of a dictatorship. More than liaising with other collectors who are using other forums as well to try and find a good balance of where some rules need to be relaxed a little ( and like i said all of your trading rules make sense perfectly barring the 100 posts) you the mods, remove the rights of adults to make their own decisions.
I appreciate as much as anyone to protect other members and hard earned money and to keep the community safe, however 100 posts has no bearing on that. Pay to sell, sure but then that still wouldn't stop scammers etc as you can't charge more than ebay and that is of little deterrent, plus unlike most forums not a lot of high end product gets moved on here so i still don't get the reasoning. Some forums say "No requesting paypal gift" that's a great one, that way an invoice is to be sent stipulating the sale and has buyer protection for the buyer. Perhaps a trader bio stating your feedback,posts,trades user ids etc etc on other forums.
Perhaps limits on sale values until you have met a certain benchmark, it goes on. Yes, obviously someone new is not going to come on to do 100 posts just to rip another person off so that's a pretty daft attitude to justify the 100 posts. Hence again why i took in your opknion the mick out of it

I want to help and whilst you may not appreciate me or my opinion, you could really do to have a look at what could be done to make this a better forum to assist uk collectors in building their collections with traders from outside of the uk and vice versa.

Why else i got so annoyed is because the fellow who removed my post could have used some common sense and if he had any issue perhaps message a person before taking the act of god approach. Also, I didn't run to another forum to air my frustration, i did it here first! I don't run from you or anyone i had something to say and i said it.
You can ban me from here if you wish mate it would be a shame but life goes on like i said i will wear a red card, I came onto this forum as i collect football cards and thought it would be great to be in touch with like minded collectors who share similar interests ,I have met some nice people here and will keep in touch with them in other formats.
Apologies if you are offended by my approach, but you would understand if you could actually see it from a perspective of someone being judged on a few posts.

Brummie - Cheers mate, appreciate your support above however you shouldn't get involved mate as i would hate for this to come back and cause you issues. You know me well enough to get my point and frustration.
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ofb1988
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Rules are rules, your post on the other forum maybe says a lot about you. I am always open to discuss any issues you have.

If we were to allow you to sell at the point of 90 posts the next person would come along and feel the right to sell at 80.

We can all claim we are genuine and legit people but the rules in place are to offer as much protection as possible to those using the site.

We always encourage folks to read the rules and do all to make sure the trade or sale is good.
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man_utd1979
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ofb1988
May 30 2015, 01:59 AM
Rules are rules, your post on the other forum maybe says a lot about you. I am always open to discuss any issues you have.

If we were to allow you to sell at the point of 90 posts the next person would come along and feel the right to sell at 80.

We can all claim we are genuine and legit people but the rules in place are to offer as much protection as possible to those using the site.

We always encourage folks to read the rules and do all to make sure the trade or sale is good.
Yeah I know there are rules, as you have pointed out. The fact is that particular rule is a bit archaic and doesn't protect anyone. Again as pointed out by Phil there have been issues with people 250+ posts. Writing ax amount of posts is not a legitimate basis of selling and trading. My post on the other forum has been edited a little as I was pretty annoyed at such a trivial thing and have cooled off a bit. What that says about me?... nothing more than any of these posts from you and the other mods on here. We disagree...simple. I don't know or care about you in a personal manner so I am not offended by anything you type out. It's just banter although from both ends it got a bit carried away. I will put my hand
up and admit that.
I am more than happy not offering cards for sale to the UK lads through here even though that goes against the fabric of what these forums are about. Sharing in the collecting community, as it isn't actually what I come to this particular forum for. I also I think you guys could and should perhaps look and seek feedback from collectors as to what are legitimate ways and practices to stop scammers and a volume of posts is not one of them. I have offered some good suggestions above some of which are as per larger forums and others I think would be good ones to add to it.

I am not looking for anything more than a common sense approach to the current day.

If people are dodgy they get found out, we name and shame shill bidders on ebay, keep the collecting community informed of bad sellers and traders wherever they are from. They can run but they can't hide. Unfortunately yes someone has to get burnt first and that is terrible but that's what these forums are here to do. Spread the word of good and bad.

I think if you take the grumpy hat off, as I have you will see that I am actually more concerned in trying to open your eyes more than offer 4 cards for sale. That says more about me than anything else. Think about it.
Cheers
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ofb1988
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Your more than welcome to your opinions and free to express your concerns. I'm sure they will be looked at and considered by those that have the final say.

Where you went wrong in what you are aiming to achieve was posting on another forum the way you have, that was childish if anything.

To refer to my age and you being 10 years senior is irrelevant, we are both adults.

I am far from the zit faced little so and so you describe me as.

As also previously said before by Phil the forum wasn't set up to sell. It's an added feature tollyman is happy to have at this moment in time and for some it works, others not so much.


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Phild
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man_utd1979
May 30 2015, 12:35 AM
Phil - have been on many forums for many years and never had an issue, and yes was pretty frustrated at such a petty thing. I have not gained 1 card from this forum so you are wrong there. But i have chimed in with some valid topic to try and assist other collectors. Which is actually what i was doing for 9 of those last 10 posts, read them you will see. Yep the last one was over the top but out of frustration at wondering what the point of it all was. You even stated yourself issues with 200 and 350 plus posters, there is no point having that stipulation!
The problem with this particular forum is it's a bit of a dictatorship. More than liaising with other collectors who are using other forums as well to try and find a good balance of where some rules need to be relaxed a little ( and like i said all of your trading rules make sense perfectly barring the 100 posts) you the mods, remove the rights of adults to make their own decisions.
I appreciate as much as anyone to protect other members and hard earned money and to keep the community safe, however 100 posts has no bearing on that. Pay to sell, sure but then that still wouldn't stop scammers etc as you can't charge more than ebay and that is of little deterrent, plus unlike most forums not a lot of high end product gets moved on here so i still don't get the reasoning. Some forums say "No requesting paypal gift" that's a great one, that way an invoice is to be sent stipulating the sale and has buyer protection for the buyer. Perhaps a trader bio stating your feedback,posts,trades user ids etc etc on other forums.
Perhaps limits on sale values until you have met a certain benchmark, it goes on. Yes, obviously someone new is not going to come on to do 100 posts just to rip another person off so that's a pretty daft attitude to justify the 100 posts. Hence again why i took in your opknion the mick out of it

I want to help and whilst you may not appreciate me or my opinion, you could really do to have a look at what could be done to make this a better forum to assist uk collectors in building their collections with traders from outside of the uk and vice versa.

Why else i got so annoyed is because the fellow who removed my post could have used some common sense and if he had any issue perhaps message a person before taking the act of god approach. Also, I didn't run to another forum to air my frustration, i did it here first! I don't run from you or anyone i had something to say and i said it.
You can ban me from here if you wish mate it would be a shame but life goes on like i said i will wear a red card, I came onto this forum as i collect football cards and thought it would be great to be in touch with like minded collectors who share similar interests ,I have met some nice people here and will keep in touch with them in other formats.
Apologies if you are offended by my approach, but you would understand if you could actually see it from a perspective of someone being judged on a few posts.

Thanks for your reply.

I have no idea if you have gained any cards from this forum, I know I have and have also picked up a couple of friends along the way. Yes I did state issues with those members of over 200 and 350 posts, I also mentioned how long they had been members so not just down to their post count.

The forum is not a dictatorship and is not run by Futera either. At times people do not understand how difficult it is for people to run a forum and this one where Tollyman allows people to sell items on what was set us as a Trading forum and where 1 person is happy to abide by the rules, others find them wrong for whatever reason and they are the ones who always choose to speak up. I run a West Brom forum as well as helping Tollyman along with the others on here and its the same story on there, you can't please everyone so no point trying to be honest.

Its not removing the right of adults either, the two members I have mentioned are both adults, its trying to find a happy medium for all no matter of age and its not easy to do. You have no idea of how many high end value items get sold on here to be honest but they do and the biggest scammer took a few of us (me included) for over £1000 but hopefully has now had the legal action taken thats deserved. I have also brought and sold a number of high end items and am fully aware of others as well.

Maybe 100 posts is not the answer so what is ? Instead of giving some abusive posts to us as a forum and the mod who removed your posts, why not post your sensible ideas like you have done so in this post and try to help us do it the right way where we can try and help everyone ? People listen more to sense than abuse.

I personally am not going to ban someone for giving some stick out, I prefer to answer it where the person can read it and reply. Sometimes issues get solved, not always but thats life. I'm not offended by any means, I get defensive and not going to deny that because I know how difficult it is to help run a forum from this side of the fence.


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man_utd1979
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Point taken, and i did read about that group case break gone wrong on here some time back. I have no further valuable input so my end of this is closed. Will continue to stop in to read the forum as always but will reserve trading to my usual forums. Cheers
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Tollyman
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Sorry it's a bit late but it's been a bit busy this week.

The forum is here and has always been here to be a place where collectors can meet to discuss everything related to football cards. Trading (swapping) was added early on at the request of members. There are no limits or prerequisites required at all for trading but some rules are in place regarding trading as can be seen on this thread. These are to ensure fair & safe trading for all.

I was never happy with people selling cards on here but after lengthy negotiation I relented, but insisted on a post count rule before people could sell cards. This was to deter traders using this site as their own personal sales shop & scammers taking advantage of members. It's not perfect as discussed but tbh it seems to have done the job as after over 5 years we have had only a handful of scamming issues to deal with. of course it's hard to prove the rule works as you can't show the amount of scammers it has deterred! If honest sellers are unable to sell then that's not great but a price worth paying.

I have read the above discussions but don't really see any practical alternatives to the rule and I'm not going to remove it and risk members safety. If you wish to sell cards then ebay is the place, it will get good visibilty and is safe. feel free to post links to the auction in our links area and members will then be aware.

As for less than constructive comments in other threads and other forums then that seems to have been spoken about above and no need to rake that up again.

On the issue of Futera and this forum then your welcome to your views however I have tried over and over again to get Topps & Panini interested but other than letting us have some nice prizes to give away they are not interested. I have spoken to them repeatedly about lots of initiatives we could do but it never comes to anything, both companies have deemed it more rewarding to put their time to other uses. Futera have done loads for FCF and the collectors on FCF but seems for some people that's a bad thing.
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