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Mad Men
Topic Started: Jan 25 2013, 11:26 AM (11,099 Views)
Mariah
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Wow. Definitely worth a rewatch.

Peggy stabbing him, and the way he broke up with her! OMG.

Need the New Yorkers to talk about the history of crime in that neighborhood in
68.

At least Peggy will be out of that shit hole.

How many Bobby's have their been on this show? I'm thinking the number is 5. :D
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IcyAll
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Oh, you mean the kid playing Bobby is the fifth one? Interesting.

I'll be interested to read the reviews, since they catch so much that I miss.

Peggy couldn't pick, so she ended up with no one. I'm glad to see the last of Abe, he was boring. I hate that militant crap, and I know it's the late '60s, so they have to represent, but I don't find it enjoyable or laughable, just exhausting. Of course, just as she's losing all the men, here comes back her drunk ex.

I can't figure out Bob. Oh, wait - there's a Bob. It can't be, but I wonder if there was something about the name Bobby -- I mean, it was Robert Kennedy's nickname ... but it was also the character's name in Sondheim's musical a few years after that -- the main character in COMPANY ... and there was Bobby Sherman and Bob Dylan. Big name at that time, maybe Matt W. remembers that. (Equal time and all, here's Neil Patrick Harris with another version of that song.)

OH. Wow. I didn't know "Joan" could sing ... like this ... cool.
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cccharley
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It was bad up there in e 70 s needle park was there too. I still call it that. Here's an op Ed from the times from someone wo grew up there.
On July 5, 1961, a gigantic brawl broke out on 84th Street between Amsterdam and Columbus Avenues. Two policemen, caught in the middle, fired warning shots into the air to stop the fighting, but a mob of 400 engulfed them. Traffic was halted on Columbus as bottles rained down from tenement houses, lye was thrown into one man’s face and knives flashed out.

That section of 84th Street in those days was one of the most dangerous blocks in the city. The Times described it as “a block of decaying tenements packed with poor Puerto Rican and Negro families and the gathering place of drunks, narcotics addicts and sexual perverts.” A local minister, James Gusweller, said there were five or six stabbings every Saturday night.

The violence built and built. Through the ’60s and ’70s, crime surged. John Podhoretz captures the atmosphere of that time in a wonderful essay called “Life in New York, Then and Now” in the current issue of Commentary. He describes the Upper West Side of his youth as a unique small town, an integrated mixture of professors and psychoanalysts, teachers and social workers, workers and the unemployed.

It was wonderful in some ways, but people in all classes lived in fear. “Mugging was nothing unusual. Everybody got mugged,” Podhoretz writes. A serial killer nicknamed Charlie Chop-Off menaced the Upper West Side, emasculating little boys and then killing them, and such was the general disorder that his crimes were barely mentioned in the city’s newspapers.

The city tried “slum clearance” to reduce the mayhem. Brownstones were torn down; 709 households were removed from 84th Street alone. More than 6,000 households were removed from the area between 87th and 97th Streets.

Crime did not abate. Passivity set in, the sense that nothing could be done. The novel “Mr. Sammler’s Planet” by Saul Bellow captured some of the dispirited atmosphere of that era — the sense that New York City was a place with no-go zones, a place where one hunkered down.

Things are different now, of course. By 1990, 5,641 felonies were committed in New York City’s 24th Precinct, according to Podhoretz. Last year, only 987 were.

But some of the psychological effects remain.

We’re familiar with talk about how Vietnam permanently shaped the baby boomers. But if you grew up in or near an American city in the 1970s, you grew up with crime (and divorce), and this disorder was bound to leave a permanent mark. It was bound to shape the people, now in their 40s and early-50s, reaching the pinnacles of power.

It has clearly influenced parenting. The people who grew up afraid to go in parks at night now supervise their own children with fanatical attention, even though crime rates have plummeted. It’s as if they’re responding to the sense of menace they felt while young, not the actual conditions of today.

The crime wave killed off the hippie movement. The hippies celebrated disorder, mayhem and the whole Dionysian personal agenda. By the 1970s, the menacing results of that agenda were all around. The crime wave made it hard to think that social problems would be solved strictly by changing the material circumstances. Shiny new public housing blocks replaced rancid old tenements, but in some cases the disorder actually got worse.

The crime wave made it hard to accept the story line that the poor were always spiritually pure, noble and oppressed.

The crime wave eroded the sense of solidarity that existed after World War II. The rich isolated themselves. The middle classes moved to the suburbs.

Yet eventually crime was reduced, and the neighborhoods were restored. It’s easy to be nostalgic for the supposedly more authentic New York of days gone by — for Jane Jacobs’s busy Greenwich Village block. But, as Benjamin Schwarz of The Atlantic recently observed, that golden image of New York really only applied to small parts of the city and only during a transition moment when the manufacturing economy of the mid-20th century briefly overlapped with the information economy of the late-20th century.

As Podhoretz rightly notes, if you grew up in a big city in the ’70s, then life is better for you now in about every respect. Today, most liberals and conservatives have more sophisticated views on how to build and preserve civic order than people did then, and there is more of it.

The Upper West Side is still integrated. And despite all expectations, it’s actually more religious now. For example, there are now 4,000 children attending yeshivas, Jewish schools and Jewish nursery schools in the neighborhood.

The children of the ’70s grew up with both unprecedented freedom and disorder, and have learned, in mostly good ways, from both.
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WillyWonka
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Holy cow, Christina Hendricks has some big boobies. LOL

I had a hard time buying Don and Betty in bed. Just a few episodes ago she was totally disgusted with him and now she's all casually hopping into the sack with Don. And where was Bobby when they were fooling around anyway?
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Mariah
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Bobby is at camp, so presumably in his bunk with the other kids.

I totally bought Betty and Don having sex. Lots of exes do. Also, Betty JUST got her figure back and is proud of it. In a way, it was Betty's closure. She was completely in control, even showed sympathy for "that poor girl." They resolved something there that allowed Betty to finally, REALLY move on. It wasn't about something lacking in her, it was all about Don and HIS issues. I loved their little talk too. It was nice.

In Betty's mind I don't think she even saw it as cheating on Harry. As she said "this all happened a long time ago."

Even if Harry died, I don't think Betty would go back to Don, although, who knows? She might, and I really think Don might as well. I loved Don being nicer and more honest with Megan after his tryst with Betty. Maybe it resolved some things for him as well? Or at least enlighten him a bit?

Although WOW, the difference in heat and chemistry between the two women. Betty and Don just sizzled from beginning to end. I hope she's on the pill, but I don't think the show would go THERE again anyway.

Loved that article on NY ccc! I was only in NY once, in 1976, and the crime and filth and rudeness made me rent a car and drive up the coast road all the way to Canada. I think I'd like it now, but back then, I was just back to the mainland from living in Hawaii and the culture shock was too much.
Edited by Mariah, May 27 2013, 03:30 PM.
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cccharley
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Glad you liked it M. I was only going to post part of it but I thought the end added to it and I couldn't post the link for some reason from the pad.

I bought the back to bed thing. They set it up in the beginning - how Betty was getting her mojo back and although she has matured she still is stuck on being "HOT and WANTED" by men and it defines her.
Edited by cccharley, May 27 2013, 03:46 PM.
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cccharley
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The city was in big change in the late 70s-80s - still not crime free but I think we got a bad rap as mean people. We weren't - we are just blunt. I was always helpful to tourists and neighbors if you know what I mean. It was the big scary city for some. I think mid 80s through the 90s were the best but that's just my opinion. The restaurant Renaissance was amazing and the clean up was happening but it wasn't only for the rich and still a melting pot. Then came the millenium and it was all bankers and what you see now.
Edited by cccharley, May 27 2013, 03:51 PM.
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Mariah
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Yeah, and Betty also finally WON. She left Don wanting more, and not the other way around.

Huff Post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/maureen-ryan/mad-men-recap-better-half_b_3342818.html

Peggy's story was the most interesting to me. Sometimes you just can't have it all. I think Peggy might head out on her own soon, and I really don't expect romantic happiness for her at the end. She lost her 3 rocks last night, and for all of their faults, for her, that was huge.

Glad they took Moylan off recapping this show. He has pretty much sucked all season. Leave him on Housewives. http://www.hollywood.com/recaps/55015777/mad-men-recap-the-better-half-season-6-episode-9

ccc, I had REALLY bad experiences in 1976. I saw a woman with multiple streams of cum running down her legs in a bathroom. A black woman whore, completely out of it. I saw a man killed, hit and run, and the drivers behind the body honking, finally two got out and dragged his body to the garbage and water filled gutter so traffic could flow and then they just went on their way.

I had a really funny (now) experience at the empire state building. I asked the news-stand guy how far Bloomingdale was, for directions. He didn't know so he asked a VERY wealthy Jewish banker type he knew who was leaving his office. THAT guy ended up following me down the street trying to give me money for a cab. It began with "Whatareyoucheap? Take a damn CAB!" He was honestly trying to be helpful, but I was so humiliated. "Hey girlie, HERE, I'll GIVE YOU the damn money for a cab!" Then a cab , at a red light actually HIT me, jumped forward while I was crossing the street. I finally blew and ended up pounding the cab door, then kicked it...scared that cab driver, which is funny because I was about 110 pounds, blond, young, tan.

THEN I saw a travel agency sign, and because I wanted my ticket changed, and OUT of NYC immediately I walked in. Some girl was gossiping on the phone and doing her nails. I coughed politely, she ignored me. I waited. 5 minutes of listening to her gossip about men and a party I softly said, "Excuse me..." and she shot me a look of hate and said "I'M TAWKIN HERE!" Finally I had enough, and grabbed the receiver from her ear and hung up the damn phone--probably 20 minutes in. I remember saying, "You work on commission, right? Well this will be the easiest money you ever made, and you are going to do it NOW." At that point she smiled and said, "Well, why didn't ya say so, no need to get in a huff." She became so sweet and helpful AFTER I was a bitch. She even tried to talk me out of leaving NYC right away, and offered to show me around.

Anyway, the whole thing was such a trip, like a bad weekend...I laugh about it now, but coming from laid back Hawaii, NYC was just too much for me at the time.


ETA, I also had the best lasagna of my life, and wonderful Jewish deli. I ordered my coffee though, which I take black, and the guy screamed at me, "Ya want it regular, girlie?" I didn't know what he was talking about, but everyone was shooting me dirty looks for talking up time, so I said "yes, I guess." ICK sugar AND cream!
Edited by Mariah, May 27 2013, 04:06 PM.
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cccharley
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I can see how people how totally different experiences. So many people and who knows who you'll meet? Interesting and scary for you. I was younger and didn't grow up in the city so the only thing I really saw were crepe restaurants and the ballet or Radio City when we had a family outing. I also went with my dad to work on wall street and got all dressed up to go out to lunch. That was also a totally different place than where tourists would go. The only touristy thing I ever did was going to the top of the twin towers at around 12/13 with my cousins from WV who had never even seen a beach before. I still haven't been to Ellis Island. They took back sand from Jones Beach! This is 70s experiences.

My mother on bought fleischmanns - I didn't even like butter since that's all she bought since back then they thought it was healthier. Too funny

I forgot about real coffee and how it used to be. Yes regular is milk and sugar. I used to order dark years ago - which still had milk. I don't like light milk in coffee although I use it if it's the only thing around. I use sugar now too and years ago sweet and low or equal
Edited by cccharley, May 27 2013, 04:23 PM.
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Mariah
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I don't think my visit COULD have been worse, or worse timing. What am I saying? I could have been mugged!

It wasn't until much later that I understood that the man at the empire state building was as upset as I was. He really was trying to help. I should mention that I practically burst into tears when he yelled at me the first time. I outran him down the street, still brushing away tears of humiliation and frustration. I didn't WANT to take a cab, because I had to meet my friend in an hour elsewhere, just wanted to see if it was in walking distance.

The only touristy thing I ended up doing was the empire state building, and that was only because it was near her meeting. She also kept her NYC apartment (she's my opera singer friend) and had a roomate who also stayed there. I was SHOCKED at that place. I think it was about 6-8 blocks from Harlem, just off that main street (where I saw the guy killed while heading downtown.) That place had one tiny window that looked out on another building, and the bathtub was in the middle of the room next to the "kitchen." One bedroom though, and now I realize it was pretty big by NYC standards, but it was so dark and old--just depressing. Maybe around 116th street?

Anyway, I just called my friend to see where it was, no answer. Now I want to know!
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cccharley
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I know so many people who were mugged and robbed. Oddly it was the same people a few times. In 28 years I never was mugged - my cell phone (2005) was stolen once but it was my fault leaving my bag on a chair at around 4 am and they didn't take my bag just my phone. Lucky I guess I'm telling you it's the luck of the draw. I would have been scared. I went on a teen tour when I was 16 and went all by bus and went to places like Salt Lake etc and when I met people there they would say OMG you're from NY. They would have tons of questions and so amazed I lived there. I wasn't even from the city.

116th on the West side was horrid until the RE boom unless it was right around Columbia Uni. If you go up there down by the central park it's still seedy but they are building it up. Central Park North they call it. Up there you had to live way west of the park. I don't know it very well. You would think right near the park would be the most exclusive but it wasn't up there. People with vision of course started to build it up 10 or so years ago I think. They'll make a bundle.

Hey Weaver - do you know much about it up there?
Edited by cccharley, May 27 2013, 04:46 PM.
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Mariah
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I hope she calls me back soon. She may not, she went hiking and camping down by the red rocks in Southern Utah this morning.

BTW, we were in her van going the other way when the guy was killed and dragged to the gutter. I was so shocked I couldn't speak until we passed them. We did call the police from the lasagna/pizza place though. I was also shocked at how LOUD and SMALL that place was--basically just a very long, very narrow hole in the wall. Most people were getting pizza to go, but we found a small table in the back---it was only wide enough for tables along one side--small ones. BEST lasagna EVER. Everyone spoke Italian. Probably the highlight of my visit.
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cccharley
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Well you'll have to come back again. I think you'd be shocked. Many of us natives don't like it so much. It's becoming suburbanized. I don't mind what Rudy did but I hate what has become of the mix of people. Many to most aren't even native NYers (say that with a NY accent) Such is the way it goes. I lived in the Village and it was not where people wanted to live. Most of my friends went UES or UWS and I was down there. Then it became so chic - the Soho off shoot since Soho never had high rises nor the village so there was never a ton of housing. There is a constant fight about letting the high rises come in instead of maintaining the old school style. Anyway - we ware way off topic I hope we haven't taken over the thread to talk about old NY. I can talk forever about it and I'm not "that" old.

I can barely stand Italian food from any other state. Even LA couldn't match it with all those dislocated Nyers. They just don't know how to use garlic right. If I remember they toss it in sauces and don't saute it first.
Edited by cccharley, May 27 2013, 04:56 PM.
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Mariah
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http://tvrecaps.ew.com/recap/mad-men-season-6-episode-9/ Another take on the show.

The other clear memory I have is how filthy everything was. It was summer and I had on strappy sandals and I had to watch everywhere I stepped. There was all this filthy goo everywhere, and I didn't even WANT to know what it was. Garbage everywhere.

Yes, I've heard it's been cleaned up and I think the crime rate has dropped dramatically, some recapper cited stats, I should have saved that. Something like 10 X the amount of violent crime and burglaries in 1968 compared to today. Everything comes at a price. I am also a huge S&TC fan (shuddup) and that show certainly showed the many beauties and scope of NYC. I realize my experience was horrifyingly bad.

I still don't know if that black woman was really a prostitute or raped. I can still see her face, and her legs. My fault probably, we arrived in NYC at 3AM and were on our way to my friend's apartment, but I had to pee SO BAD. Reluctantly my friend stopped at the only place open she could think of that would have open public bathrooms. Grand Central Station.

Yeah.

The cum filled legs were just the worse of what I saw, it was pretty grim.
Edited by Mariah, May 27 2013, 05:09 PM.
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cccharley
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I think NYC may be the safest large city in the nation now. Quite the turn around.

This episode certainly showed the darker aspects of the city and last week's with the freaky woman entering the doorman building with the kids. It scared me too! Freaky. There were tons of sirens outside of Don's fancy apt too which you heard from the terrace. I'm going to read some more recaps. I've only read Tom and Lorenzo. I still feel like crap. The pollen isn't helping any.
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