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Show Snark; Episode to Episode Snark
Topic Started: Dec 24 2011, 05:17 PM (64,991 Views)
lovesnark
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Finestra
Mar 20 2014, 10:43 AM
Okay - I did a search on Twitop and it looks like Mozelle wrote it? and must have deleted it because Jextella quoted it and it only comes up in search under Jextella's post in the quote - not under the original quote. So either one of the mods dinged it or the original poster deleted it. Shades of Susan Saunders indeed! But then you look at her other posts and she seems to be criticizing Aviva so maybe she is throwing us off the track.

Lol.
The post is still there on page 1234. The poster is laura31. Howard edited it for being boards on boards.
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Finestra
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Oh, that's why it wouldn't come up - I put your quote in quotes and searched it. My apologies to Mozelle! Still, it's probably that image consultant of Aviva's who wrote it!
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dilbert2004
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I agree Fin. The first thing that came to my mind when I read that post on the other site is, "Is that you Aviva?" It is just too contrary to all realism to be anything other! Same for the positive reviews of her book on Amazon.
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IcyAll
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Someone called writing Carole's "second career" -- it's not her second career, is it? She was a writer for 20 years, writing and producing segments for TV news. Her book was another form, but still writing. The career she never had, because Anthony was already sick when they married, was as a mother. She doesn't strike me as the type would would yearn for that, but if she had a child she'd be great at it, IMO. Too late now.
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Finestra
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I really like Heather and the other women. They are normal. Some may say boring. But I loved the photo shoot. Heather owned the photographer. Heather's body language and demeanor were a lesson in how to hold your ground and not be intimidated by a snooty "artiste!" "No I'm good here" cracked me up. I haven't read her blog, but someone posted that the photog was not being nice to Carole, so Heather was sticking up for her.

I like the normal life stuff. This is what I want to see. The behind the scenes stuff in NYC that I would never get a glimpse of. I mean if P diddly widdly hanging with all those white people and totally normal black people. No wanksters?
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Finestra
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Carole spent I think 5 years writing either Widow's Guide or What Remains. She gives a lot of credit to people who helped her and guided her through the process. Someone questions (over on twitop) if all that guidance in reality made the book end up being ghost written (without Carole even realizing it). In my gut I think Carole is the type of person who takes suggestions/comments and goes back and labors over the words.

But for Aviva of all people to criticize Carole is very annoying. Aviva who likens writing a memoir to typing out an email and is able to get from her brain and onto the shelves in a matter of months.* I think Aviva is the type of person who denigrates every one around her.

*I am sure there are writers who are very adept at writing well very quickly.
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Camo
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There's a great post over there by "MrsBigger" - it doesn't resolve, since that's impossible anyway, where editing and ghosting lie. I haven't read 'What Remains' but did read an excerpt, and to me, the sentence structure and tone is so similar to Carole's blogs that I assume, based on just my own instinct, that Carole didn't require an editor to heavily revise her work. But "MrsBigger" makes me doubt that a bit, especially with the bit about Bill Whitworth.

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This. A good editor is a great help when writing. But anybody who writes knows the distinction. Aviva also showed how little she knows about writing/literature by throwing out Stephen King and John Grisham. Both good prolific writers, who tell a good story. But both are criticized for sentence structure, word choice and not being sophisticated literature. Because Carole's style is so much more lyrical, she would be insulted to be compared to John Grisham. In any event, choosing those two showed how little Aviva knows about writing.


I've lurked around here for forever but am finally digging up my old password to this never-used account to weigh in on the Carole/Aviva ghostwriter issue, because it is sort of my area of expertise. I'm a novelist-- I've published several books with major houses-- as well as a book editor, though the capacity in which I work as one is a little unusual and too boring and complicated to get into here. I'm no Aviva fan, and I mostly like Carole, but I actually disagree that the difference between an editor and a ghostwriter is always so obvious. (I also disagree with the Stephen King thing-- the debate over his serious literary merit is a lively one among writerly types.)

I was actually discussing the Aviva/Carole dust-up with an editor friend today, and we both were undecided on what we would consider a ghostwritten book. With most celebrity books, it's very clear-- many ghosts are explicitly credited, sometimes on the cover. Other times, though, the line is much more blurry. If a book is completely rewritten by an “editor”-- and I've done that more than once-- was it ghosted? What if half of it was completely rewritten? A third?

There are a lot of degrees of input that a book editor has on the final product depending on her editing style, her relationship with the author, and the author’s skill and experience. But as a rule of thumb, I’d say that there are a few signs that signify a that an “editor” is working in a capacity more in line with what I would consider to be a ghostwriter’s job:

Has the editor actually ADDED significant material to the manuscript-- i.e., more than a sentence here and there?

If there were major changes to be made, did the editor just go ahead and make them, or did she instead offer notes for the author to execute on her own time?

On publication, have any changes to the manuscript been made without the author’s explicit approval?

Was the “editor” physically present for any of the actual writing of the book?

Did any editor other than the acquiring editor or another salaried employee of the publisher work on the book?

A yes answer to any of the above does not automatically mean the book has been “ghostwritten,” but it’s where I would start to raise my eyebrows, keeping in mind that for a celebrity book-- which I would consider What Remains to be, despite Carole's intelligence and credentials-- it's pretty unusual for a ghost not to be involved.

It’s also depressingly common that authors who have been ghostwritten seem to have no idea of it, either because they’re delusional or because they think total rewrites are part of the normal editorial process. (And in magazine/newspaper writing, my understanding is that they sometimes can be.)

In Carole’s case, who knows? If Bill Whitworth actually got paid by someone to help edit the book, I think that does raise some flags. In most situations, Carole would have already had an editor at her publishing house; there would have been no need to hire a long-retired magazine editor to work on it. And while publishing people are notoriously gossipy, the fact that someone mentioned him by name to Aviva does indeed make me curious.

I don’t think Carole’s background as a journalist is necessarily that meaningful here. Writing a book-length work is a pretty specialized skill—a skill that often has nothing to do with intelligence, education, or even one’s facility with other types of writing. (I’ve seen very accomplished screenwriters and journalists turn in manuscripts that were absolutely unpublishable, and I'm pretty much hopeless when it comes to writing anything other than fiction.)

I don’t know. I have no knowledge of the specific publishing process that this book went through. Did someone sit down and interview Carole for a few hours and then write the entire book for her based on those interviews, the way a "real" ghostwriter would? I doubt it. But I also wouldn’t rule out that the book was very heavily rewritten or that the writing process was collaborative enough that it would be debatable for her to claim sole authorship.

Whether you want to call someone an “editor” or a “ghostwriter,” there’s no shame in using outside help. Again, with a book like this it would be almost expected. But if Carole did have this kind of editing, it’s ridiculous for her to be walking around acting like she’s Alice fucking Munro. On the other hand, if she didn’t, I can certainly see why she would be seriously pissed at any suggestion otherwise. (Keeping in mind that I also think it’s absolutely possible for someone to be ghostwritten without totally even realizing it.)

At any rate, I can unequivocally say that, I’d much, much, much rather edit a manuscript by Carole than one by Aviva. And no matter what the truth is, I’m sure Carole had a stronger hand in the writing of her own book than almost any other Housewife. There are several who I doubt have even read the books published under their names.

I hope this isn't considered off-topic. The issue of ghostwriting is one that's pretty confusing and obscure, and I feel like it does have direct bearing on the Aviva/Carole conflict.


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Finestra
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Camo I saw that and that was what I was referring to. My gut tells me that Carole took a lot of suggestions and went back and rewrote a lot of the stuff herself. She gives a lot of credit in her book.

My question. Is Aviva saying Widow's Guide had a ghost writer or What Remains had one?
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Camo
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Fin, I think Aviva is saying that 'What Remains' had the ghost, and that the ghost was Bill Whitworth. And MrsB. noting that Whitworth was (a) retired and (b) not an employee of Carole's publishing house is what really gave me pause. Since Carole got wonderful reviews and sales for 'What Remains' that's a big-time accusation.
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Finestra
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Oh Aviva, why even go there? It's a painful subject to begin with.
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IcyAll
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The fact that Aviva mentioned the guy's name does not mean he worked on Carole's book -- that's where the writer above erred in her argument. Aviva said that, Carole never said "he was my editor" -- and I think Carole is sharp enough to know if she was ghostwritten.

Having read WHAT REMAINS and being an avid reader of her blogs, I agree that they sound the same -- which leads me to even more strongly believe Carole wrote it all.

I'm not published, but I've completed three books and half of a fourth. The first three I had edited and my friend who did the work made suggestions only -- I chose how to implement or not implement them. I also just finished/ended a ghostwriting sort of project for a guy who is a writer himself. It was his story and too painful for him to write, he said. When we were reading through the first draft he thanked me for "using my own words" -- I spent hours interviewing him, taping the conversations, and trying to be very factual (it's a legal-realm story) ... but ultimately I could tell he wasn't happy with it. And I know he will rewrite some of it; or maybe not, but I think he may. But that's okay with me. I never wanted ownership of a story that wasn't my creation. I think if someone edited Carole's memoir or any memoir they would probably have the same perspective. Why would they want to sully the personalized nature of the read by claiming they created it in any way? I mean, there are people who just can't write a book who still have fascinating lives that need to be immortalized in book form. Often the authorship is listed "as told to ____" ... Carole's book had her name. It sounded like her. It was formatted as her blogs are, with mini-stories of a sort. I just have no doubt that she did it all, with the help she was forced to take and not one slight bit otherwise.

And this whole discussion makes me feel like Aviva's winning, because of the doubt she managed to cast with ludicrous statements. I do like that Carole got in a few points herself, like no one at Aviva's publishing house wanted to work with Aviva, so no one likely said anything to her about anyone.
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dilbert2004
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Thanks for bringing the Mrs Bigger post over Camo. I agree with her on one thing, her seeming disregard of Stephen King. Hate him.
I disagree strongly with her assertion that journalism does not equate to other writing. I feel that a memoir is the ultimate journalistic pursuit and therefore Carole's journalism background absolutely equates to her memoir writing. For a creative writing endevour, such as her most recent book, no. But for an autobiography, yes.
Memoirists often thank pages and pages of people in the back of their books. This does not mean these people helped write the book per se, but that they helped the writer touch base with reality, confirm that how they remembered an event is how that event occurred. A memoirist might also use many people as sounding boards to see if something the writer may deem important is indeed that. And a writer may just use people for "talk therapy" as they go through the painful process of putting down their life, thoughts, emotions onto the page.

As deeply, deeply personal as Carole's memoir is, I will not believe until she confirms otherwise that she had a ghostwriter or was edited to a point beyond the normal massaging of a manuscript.

But let's leave all this behind and say Aviva is 100% accurate in what she has said about Carole and her book. She said these things for one reason and one reason only, to be vindictive. And that is (speaking of normal situations, not Hitler like situations) never, never, ever the right thing to do. She has shattered like 623 mitzvot with this behavior, and truthful or not, should feel ashamed and mortified.
I agree with you Icy that this has gone on too long in the blogosphere and it is almost makes it like Aviva is "winning". I would go so far to say that this topic has gained so much traction that Carole really does need to, along with the publisher or editor of What Remains, put out a statement contradicting or confirming the accusations. The chatter needs to be stopped now. Of course this is Bravo so they are probably giving her incentives to allow this to play out.
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Finestra
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I agree Dilbert.

On that note. Did Aviva change religions? Is she a WASP now?
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dilbert2004
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HA! Finestra, what makes you think she has gone all WASP?
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discomom
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I'm sure my daughter, who graduated from a top School of Journalism ( they only accept 100 new entrants each semester) would love to chime in on this. They are trained to really edit, and then edit again. Of course they also have someone look over it/proof read, but I am assuming that Carole was schooled the same way back in the day (probably even more rigorously, since well, that's how they were back in the day). You also just don't get a job being a producer at ABC ( she won some awards, didn't she? I thought I read that somewhere) by writing "long emails".
Aviva is just full of it. I'm looking forward to her getting her ass handed to her at some point this season.

ETA: I don't mean to sound Aviva like by talking about my daughter... my point was she has a degree in Journalism from a top school and I know everything she went through in her classes :$
Edited by discomom, Mar 21 2014, 03:02 PM.
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