Abortion

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Abortion
Topic Started: Jun 9 2007, 02:39 PM (236 Views)
Bob 121	Jun 9 2007, 02:39 PM Post #1
Librarium Adept Posts: 837 Group: Members Member #16 Joined: October 16, 2005	The Person Jun 9 2007, 04:33 AM Bob 121 Jun 9 2007, 04:08 AM General Jun 8 2007, 02:08 PM According to the PM she sent me i was the first person she informed of this, but i didn't actually get around to reading it until just now. I just hope she knows what she's in for if she decides to carry this baby to term, morning sickness, bloating..........and after the kid is born it could be one of those screaming babies that start crying for little to no reason at all and won't stop. But if she feels she is ready to tackle these challenges, then i wish her all the luck in the world. Well.... I find abortion to be morally wrong so I hope to God she goes through with the birth. Well, until they've stopped all the wars in the world I see nothing wrong with abortion. War kills more people. Kinda extreme difference I know, but that's why I think this way. Put your efforts where it's needed the most. We're walking a fine line between staying on topic and having this thread fall into the abyss of an abortion debate but here I go: I think abortion is wrong because you'd be terminating what would eventually become a human being, regardless of whether or not a person considers it to be a human being at the time. I am a firm proponent of having people take responsibilty for thier actions so if you're willing to have sex then you should also be willing to deal with the consequences of that and not simply take the easy way out- playing God with another 'thing's' life because you don't want to deal with the problems it may bring with it. I see no reason that, even if you don't want to have a child, you cannot simply put the infant up for adoption so at least it'll have a chance at life. And about the wars thing, I feel that we should never say that something is ok simply because there's worse stuff going on somewhere else. That kind of thinking will be our downfall. i.e. All I'm doing is selling drugs to kids, at least I'm not murdering anyone. A perfect example would be in the move Lord of War.
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Fremskritt	Jun 9 2007, 06:49 PM Post #2
The poster formerly known as TP Posts: 11,047 Group: Members Member #22 Joined: October 30, 2005 Gender Male	Bob 121 We're walking a fine line between staying on topic and having this thread fall into the abyss of an abortion debate but here I go: Well, I'm walking the same line, but I just have to clarify my views. Sorry for turning this into a debate thread. Quote: I think abortion is wrong because you'd be terminating what would eventually become a human being, regardless of whether or not a person considers it to be a human being at the time. I am a firm proponent of having people take responsibilty for thier actions so if you're willing to have sex then you should also be willing to deal with the consequences of that and not simply take the easy way out- playing God with another 'thing's' life because you don't want to deal with the problems it may bring with it. I see no reason that, even if you don't want to have a child, you cannot simply put the infant up for adoption so at least it'll have a chance at life. This is not about playing God, it's about freedom of choice. You are right that abortion is a very irresponsible way of dealing with sex (or rather, the result of it), but I strongly believe it's the mother's right to decide what she wants to do with her own body. If the fetus never had a chance at life, how can it miss life? Granted, it would never have a chance to try, but then it doesn't know it has a choice. In the end it's not up to the fetus whether it's born or not even if the mother chooses against abortion it will be born anyway without getting a chance to choose. That argument works both ways. The fetus was never asked if it wanted to be concepted either. Quote: And about the wars thing, I feel that we should never say that something is ok simply because there's worse stuff going on somewhere else. That kind of thinking will be our downfall. i.e. All I'm doing is selling drugs to kids, at least I'm not murdering anyone. A perfect example would be in the move Lord of War. I never said war justifies abortion, I was making an analogy. Isn't war the same thing? Killing people without their own consent? That's why I'm thinking it's more important we stop wars than debate endlessly whether abortion is ethical or not. I find it quite hypocritical to discuss the former, without even giving the latter a thought. And yes, war is organized killing too, only on a much larger scale. All in all I find war to be much more inhuman. It might be a ridiculous analogy to you, but I think war is a much more serious issue than abortion. After all far more people die directly or indirectly from war every year than people who die from abortion. Notice that I didn't question whether a fetus is a person or not, because IMO that's not the issue. Again, my apologies for feeding the debate. If DD finds this discussion to be inappropriate, let me apologize beforehand.



Bob 121	Jun 9 2007, 08:34 PM Post #3
Librarium Adept Posts: 837 Group: Members Member #16 Joined: October 16, 2005	The Person Jun 9 2007, 05:49 PM This is not about playing God, it's about freedom of choice. You are right that abortion is a very irresponsible way of dealing with sex (or rather, the result of it), but I strongly believe it's the mother's right to decide what she wants to do with her own body. If the fetus never had a chance at life, how can it miss life? Granted, it would never have a chance to try, but then it doesn't know it has a choice. In the end it's not up to the fetus whether it's born or not even if the mother chooses against abortion it will be born anyway without getting a chance to choose. That argument works both ways. The fetus was never asked if it wanted to be concepted either. You make some good points but I have to say one thing about this part that's kinda retarted but here goes: If a woman should have the right to do what she wants with her own body then who are we to say that she cannot legally: a)Do drugs such as marijuana or heroin that have confirmed and serious adverse health effects b)Commit suicide c)Sell her body (I realize that a lot of countries do have legal prostitution and even some states but I'm just looking at it from a U.S. perspective where it's pretty much banned.)
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*Rinoa*	Jun 9 2007, 08:48 PM Post #4
Advanced Posts: 2,087 Group: Global Moderator Member #66 Joined: February 23, 2006 Gender Female Innate Color Red Zodiac Sign Taurus	Bob 121 Jun 9 2007, 08:34 PM You make some good points but I have to say one thing about this part that's kinda retarted but here goes: If a woman should have the right to do what she wants with her own body then who are we to say that she cannot legally: a)Do drugs such as marijuana or heroin that have confirmed and serious adverse health effects b)Commit suicide c)Sell her body (I realize that a lot of countries do have legal prostitution and even some states but I'm just looking at it from a U.S. perspective where it's pretty much banned.) So...Basically you're saying women shouldn't have the right to do what they want with their own bodies? And all of the things you mention have awful long-lasting health effects on the woman in question, whereas abortion does not unless complications arise. The Person Jun 9 2007, 05:49 PM This is not about playing God, it's about freedom of choice. You are right that abortion is a very irresponsible way of dealing with sex (or rather, the result of it), but I strongly believe it's the mother's right to decide what she wants to do with her own body. If the fetus never had a chance at life, how can it miss life? Granted, it would never have a chance to try, but then it doesn't know it has a choice. In the end it's not up to the fetus whether it's born or not even if the mother chooses against abortion it will be born anyway without getting a chance to choose. That argument works both ways. The fetus was never asked if it wanted to be concepted either. applauds I couldn't have said that better myself. Anyway, I think if anyone wants to keep discussing this, we should make a seperate topic for it. DD doesn't need a debate happening on the same thread that she's announcing that she's having a baby.
	...An enemy that is pure evil? Right and wrong are not what separate us and our enemies. It's our different standpoints, our perspectives that separate us. Both sides blame one another. There's no good or bad side. Just 2 sides holding different views. ~Squall Leonhart


Fremskritt	Jun 10 2007, 06:41 AM Post #5
The poster formerly known as TP Posts: 11,047 Group: Members Member #22 Joined: October 30, 2005 Gender Male	Rinoa Anyway, I think if anyone wants to keep discussing this, we should make a seperate topic for it. DD doesn't need a debate happening on the same thread that she's announcing that she's having a baby. Moderator action: Done. Topic split. Bob 121 You make some good points but I have to say one thing about this part that's kinda retarted but here goes: If a woman should have the right to do what she wants with her own body then who are we to say that she cannot legally: Calling other people's opinions retarded isn't arguing, it's called throwing dirt, please refrain from that in a serious discussion. Bob 121 a)Do drugs such as marijuana or heroin that have confirmed and serious adverse health effects Abortion does not involve a serious health risk to the woman, so here I think it's up to her to decide. Bob 121 b)Commit suicide Agreed. This is not a good analogy either though, since it's the "victim" who decided, unlike abortion. Please keep these two separate, as suicide is done to yourself, while abortion is done to someone else. Bob 121 c)Sell her body (I realize that a lot of countries do have legal prostitution and even some states but I'm just looking at it from a U.S. perspective where it's pretty much banned.) How do you know you represent the majority of the US population? AFAIK there's heated debate blushing up about this (abortion) every now and then, so please don't use your country as a justification for your arguments. But of course I don't live "over there", so I might be wrong. Not that I agree that women should look at prostitution as a viable career choice, in practice it hardly turns out that way. But again, this is a choice about yourself, not about someone else, so you can't really compare this to abortion.



Hlfranklin	Jun 10 2007, 04:37 PM Post #6
Tainted Soul Posts: 15,106 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: August 30, 2005 Gender Male Innate Color Red Zodiac Sign Cancer	I knew a topic like this would get started sooner or later, i have to side with bob, and sp on this, i think it is wrong. Yes, i think women should be able to choose what they can and can't do with their bodies, but i think that the man(father) that got her pregnant should also get a say after all it is partly his...... i actually know some people personally who went through this.



Ice_Jedi5	Jun 10 2007, 06:01 PM Post #7
Instant Karma Posts: 263 Group: Members Member #144 Joined: March 20, 2007	I support abortion as stated by the U.S. government. Up to the 3rd month. I believe in the end its the woman's choice but the man's shouldn't do unheard. The lady who was Roe in Roe V Wade now is against abortion.



Norman Bates	Jun 10 2007, 07:05 PM Post #8
Hotel Manager Posts: 108 Group: Members Member #160 Joined: May 16, 2007	I believe that in certain situations abortion is acceptable. If you're just out having sex and you accidently end up pregnant I'm not so sure you should be allowed to get an abortion (I still haven't made up my mind). But if your a rape victim then you should definitely have the option of abortion (would you really want to have some rapist's kid?).
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Fremskritt	Jun 10 2007, 07:13 PM Post #9
The poster formerly known as TP Posts: 11,047 Group: Members Member #22 Joined: October 30, 2005 Gender Male	Hlfranklin Yes, i think women should be able to choose what they can and can't do with their bodies, but i think that the man(father) that got her pregnant should also get a say after all it is partly his...... i actually know some people personally who went through this. I never said the father shouldn't have his say. But you say you know some people who have been through this, what are their opinions?



Hlfranklin	Jun 10 2007, 07:17 PM Post #10
Tainted Soul Posts: 15,106 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: August 30, 2005 Gender Male Innate Color Red Zodiac Sign Cancer	The Person Jun 10 2007, 07:13 PM Hlfranklin Yes, i think women should be able to choose what they can and can't do with their bodies, but i think that the man(father) that got her pregnant should also get a say after all it is partly his...... i actually know some people personally who went through this. I never said the father shouldn't have his say. But you say you know some people who have been through this, what are their opinions? Well at first the female involved(no names) was against having a baby, whereas the guy wanted the baby, so they went to court several times over a 3 month period, and the guy won, but now after have had the baby the woman is glad she was made to keep it. BTW the baby is now 3. And yes i agree if the woman in question was a rape victim, then and only then should abortion be an option.



Fremskritt	Jun 10 2007, 07:22 PM Post #11
The poster formerly known as TP Posts: 11,047 Group: Members Member #22 Joined: October 30, 2005 Gender Male	Hlfranklin Well at first the female involved(no names) was against having a baby, whereas the guy wanted the baby, so they went to court several times over a 3 month period, and the guy won, but now after have had the baby the woman is glad she was made to keep it. BTW the baby is now 3. Wow, to court even. I disagree to this way of solving such questions (is this the standard way of resolving conflicts in the US?), because this is very personal, so I don't think other people should get involved. Still, what's done is done, can't change that.



Bob 121	Jun 10 2007, 10:14 PM Post #12
Librarium Adept Posts: 837 Group: Members Member #16 Joined: October 16, 2005	I feel that there are only two reasons that abortion should even be considered to be legal: The woman was a victim of rape as you said before or the pregnancy had a high risk of killing the mother. Even then though, I don't see why the child cannot be put up for adoption if the mother doesn't want to deal with the challenge of raising a child. I also believe that the guy has an equal responsibility in the matter, he had a hand in it and he needs to support the woman, not just leave and put all the more burden on hte would-be mother which may or may not pressure her to resort to abortion. As a guy I can't say that childbirth is easy but I'm just saying that I believe that abortion is tantamount to murder and that by getting an abortion you'd be killing something that would eventually be a living person without even giving it a chance at something we all seem to take for granted. This isn't some shovanistic argument here where men try to control women and tell them what they can or cannot do with their own bodies because with the exception of rape victims they all had the choice to have sex, if you can't live with that decision then too bad, both you and said guy should have to deal with that decision instead of just paying a doctor to 'fix' the mess you made. It sickens me immesurably, knowing of at least one girl in my school who went to a party, got laid, and got pregnant, only to have mommy and daddy take her to an abortion clinic so that they wouldn't have to deal with her idiotic choices. Pro-choice people's slogans are this: A woman should have the right to do with her body as she pleases, then I implore you, please think about what you're doing before you act. Is it really worth killing something for one night of pleasure?
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Hlfranklin	Jun 10 2007, 10:38 PM Post #13
Tainted Soul Posts: 15,106 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: August 30, 2005 Gender Male Innate Color Red Zodiac Sign Cancer	The Person Jun 10 2007, 07:22 PM Hlfranklin Well at first the female involved(no names) was against having a baby, whereas the guy wanted the baby, so they went to court several times over a 3 month period, and the guy won, but now after have had the baby the woman is glad she was made to keep it. BTW the baby is now 3. Wow, to court even. I disagree to this way of solving such questions (is this the standard way of resolving conflicts in the US?), because this is very personal, so I don't think other people should get involved. Still, what's done is done, can't change that. That is the only legal way sometimes... yes i agree completely bob, and i know dd agrees with you on this matter.



Fremskritt	Jun 11 2007, 07:26 AM Post #14
The poster formerly known as TP Posts: 11,047 Group: Members Member #22 Joined: October 30, 2005 Gender Male	Bob 121 I feel that there are only two reasons that abortion should even be considered to be legal: The woman was a victim of rape as you said before or the pregnancy had a high risk of killing the mother. Even then though, I don't see why the child cannot be put up for adoption if the mother doesn't want to deal with the challenge of raising a child. I also believe that the guy has an equal responsibility in the matter, he had a hand in it and he needs to support the woman, not just leave and put all the more burden on hte would-be mother which may or may not pressure her to resort to abortion. As I said, it's the father's responsibility as well, if he doesn't have his say you have all the right to think of him as a selfish bastard. But then, who's to know he won't put pressure on her, like in the case Hl mentioned? And I never said abortion is the only way out, adoption is to be preferred, but that doesn't mean you should remove the freedom of choice in the matter. Still, if adoption is available I wouldn't be surprised if most people would prefer that, as it's the choice that involves the least moral arguing. For some reason I've never heard of adoption as an option here in Norway, maybe that is what has given me my opinion on this matter... Bob 121 As a guy I can't say that childbirth is easy but I'm just saying that I believe that abortion is tantamount to murder and that by getting an abortion you'd be killing something that would eventually be a living person without even giving it a chance at something we all seem to take for granted. Is life really that precious? When does life start? Each ejaculation produces hundreds of thousands of sperm cells, each bearing the seed of life, still only one gets to fertilize an egg cell. Also one egg cell is being wasted every month in the menstrual cycle, also a seed of life. With your argument everybody is a serial killer, because every single sperm and egg would eventually become a living person if given the chance. Well, not as much in the case of the sperm, since it's mostly luck based, but each egg that's not fertilized is a murdered human being if we follow your line of thought. Bob 121 This isn't some shovanistic argument here where men try to control women and tell them what they can or cannot do with their own bodies because with the exception of rape victims they all had the choice to have sex, if you can't live with that decision then too bad, both you and said guy should have to deal with that decision instead of just paying a doctor to 'fix' the mess you made. It sickens me immesurably, knowing of at least one girl in my school who went to a party, got laid, and got pregnant, only to have mommy and daddy take her to an abortion clinic so that they wouldn't have to deal with her idiotic choices. Abortion should never be used as a contraceptive, I agree to that, only as a last resort. But what if the pregnancy endangered the life of the mother? Wouldn't it be better to let her have an abortion, so only one life is lost, and not two? Also, isn't abortion a way of dealing with pregnancy? I'm not saying it's the best way, or even a good one, but to deprive people of the choice isn't a good option either. Both keeping the child and not keeping it are serious decisions, because you have to live with the consequences no matter what you choose. Abortion is never an easy choice to make, and the decision to go through with it might haunt you the rest of your life. So saying that abortion is cold blooded murder is just as ridiculous as saying that pro-lifers are chauvinists. If you decide to take an abortion without even thinking about what we've been talking about in this thread, then you're a murderer, at least in my eyes. And no, I am not saying that this justifies pulling a gun on someone and shooting them. Those are two different cases, not just because the tool used is different.



Norman Bates	Jun 11 2007, 08:14 AM Post #15
Hotel Manager Posts: 108 Group: Members Member #160 Joined: May 16, 2007	That's pretty much how I feel about it, albeit I never thought of that whole "wasting eggs is murder" thing.
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Bob 121	Jun 11 2007, 10:50 AM Post #16
Librarium Adept Posts: 837 Group: Members Member #16 Joined: October 16, 2005	The Person Jun 11 2007, 06:26 AM Is life really that precious? When does life start? Each ejaculation produces hundreds of thousands of sperm cells, each bearing the seed of life, still only one gets to fertilize an egg cell. Also one egg cell is being wasted every month in the menstrual cycle, also a seed of life. With your argument everybody is a serial killer, because every single sperm and egg would eventually become a living person if given the chance. Well, not as much in the case of the sperm, since it's mostly luck based, but each egg that's not fertilized is a murdered human being if we follow your line of thought. In the case of the sperm cells dying you have to look at it this way, nature intended for numerous sperm to try to fertilize an egg since many wouldn't even make it to the egg but that's nature. As much as it sucks for the other million sperm who die they had a chance to reach the egg, and thus life. Eggs are also discharged via a woman's natural cycle so the same point applies. I'm not going to go and change how the human reproductive system works, but I'm not too fond of playing around with it either. Aborting a child would not be the equivalent to nature, that's the difference.
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Dark Death	Jun 11 2007, 12:07 PM Post #17
Ruler of a new Utopia Posts: 3,245 Group: Members Member #104 Joined: June 27, 2006 Gender Female Innate Color Red	I am going to side with hl/sp/bob.... Abortion= ick.
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Bob 121	Jun 11 2007, 01:46 PM Post #18
Librarium Adept Posts: 837 Group: Members Member #16 Joined: October 16, 2005	Dark Death Jun 11 2007, 11:07 AM I am going to side with hl/sp/bob.... Abortion= ick. Yay!
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*Rinoa*	Jun 11 2007, 01:57 PM Post #19
Advanced Posts: 2,087 Group: Global Moderator Member #66 Joined: February 23, 2006 Gender Female Innate Color Red Zodiac Sign Taurus	I agree with TP. I don't think abortion is the only thing that should be considered as an option, but it should continue to be legal. Even if you're against it, I think anyone can agree that if someone's going to have an abortion, it's best done legally and professionally than illegally, by an amateur in a back alley, which is what women seeking abortion would do if it were made illegal. Though legality isn't the issue at hand...Just saying.
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Marluxia	Jun 11 2007, 04:07 PM Post #20
*Floral Assassin* Posts: 7,435 Group: Admin Member #95 Joined: May 24, 2006 Gender Male Innate Color Pink Zodiac Sign Aquarius	Look what i spawned, i guess my reality check approach wasn't the best means of conveying my opinion on the news she shared with us. As for the topic at hand, i'm neither for, nor against abortion. I do believe in some situations it's best, like if complications arise where continuing to carry the baby could kill the mother. And if the mother dies so too can the child, i also feel that every woman should reserve the right to do as she sees fit with regards to her pregnancy. Sure the father's input matters but he's not the one carrying the baby now is he?, so many unwanted children are born into a life of poverty and famine, in a way abortions prevent the same fate from falling on yet another child. Of course if can't bear to abort it and you've no intention of keeping it, then for their sake place them up for adoption. Adoption is probabally the more humane way of ridding yourself of unwanted children............of course if you didn't get yourself knocked up in the first place then you wouldn't have to go through all this emotional crap..........the moral of the story is, if you're going to have sex make sure someone is using birth control and make sure it's still working. Otherwise you might wind up with a unplanned pregnancy, that's the thing when women don't overly want to get pregnant they seem more likely to become pregnant then if they're actually trying to make a baby. I guess pregnancy is one of those things that happens when you least expect it, or want it...........
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