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Watching Any Good Serials?
Topic Started: Apr 12 2006, 09:28 AM (88,282 Views)
Chandu
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Champeen of Justice and Seeker of Knowledge, but rascal at heart!
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When I recently attempted to order the first Dick Tracy serial from VCI, I was told they were tweaking it and it wasn't available at the moment, so it's possible they continually upgrade their products.
Not plane, nor bird, nor even frog. It's just little ol' me...
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panzer the great & terrible
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Mouth Breather
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It could use a little tweaking.
Life is just a bowl of cherries, it's too mysterious, don't take it serious...
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CliffClaven
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Balcony Gang, Foist Class
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I didn't know they updated serials, but I do know they went back to their "Somewhere in Dreamland" set (2 discs of Fleisher cartoons), replacing one edited cartoon and adding a couple of others that they evidently didn't have decent prints of before.
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Todd 3D
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The Madd Director
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My good friend 39 O 13 and I are working our way through Call of the Savage (the Hermitage Hill DVD is stunning on this one) and I am doing my seventh viewing of PERILS OF NYOKA, a chapter a week on Saturday. I'm also picking my way through TAILSPIN TOMMY IN THE GREAT AIR MYSTERY, which isn't as good as the other two, but it's good enough.
"We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home"--Edward R. Murrow
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cquigley
Balcony Gang, Foist Class
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Based on the recommendations from you folks, I ordered King of the Mounties from Grood at the same time I ordered DOTW. Grood did a nice job of making King of the Mounties more than just a watchable serial. However, I still prefer the first one.

Like everybody else, I have the freeze in Chapter one. So far only through 3 chapters, but a superior serial in all respects. Grood did a excellent job on the voice recreations. My only compliant (minor) is that the recreated voices are louder than the original soundtrack. The overall sound is tremendous, surprising so. It sounds terrific in surround sound mode.
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panzer the great & terrible
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Mouth Breather
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Yep, you nailed it, except for the contrast problem, which irritates me. Still, a solid release, but if you were Grood, and had material every fan wants, wouldn't you try to do the best possible job? I simply don't understand the guy. His reasoning processes seem peculiarly unstable.
Life is just a bowl of cherries, it's too mysterious, don't take it serious...
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Chandu
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Champeen of Justice and Seeker of Knowledge, but rascal at heart!
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If my disc of DDOTW froze momentarily, I didn't pay any attention, as I wasn't expecting a pristine product in the first place. I had to adjust my volume in the first chapter, but after that it wasn't a problem. When I think about those old bootleg VHS tapes of serials which had been copied ad nauseam that I used to watch and feel lucky to have found, I feel really lucky to not only have a copy of this lost serial, but such a marvelous copy at that!
Not plane, nor bird, nor even frog. It's just little ol' me...
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riddlerider
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panzer the great & terrible
Feb 26 2011, 10:55 AM
Yep, you nailed it, except for the contrast problem, which irritates me. Still, a solid release, but if you were Grood, and had material every fan wants, wouldn't you try to do the best possible job?
Yes, but, in all fairness, Grood had certain limitations forced on him. Jack Mathis's print was a little contrasty to begin with, and the telecine procedure boosts contrast. You can ameliorate it with scene-to-scene correction at the point of transfer, but that's a slow and costly possess Brigham Young University chose not to employ when they mastered the print. Short of re-mastering Jack's 16mm print, which was not in the cards, there really wasn't anything Eric could do to make the thing look much better than it does.
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toddgault
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I think everybody understands there are going to be limitations on what can be accomplished with old films. That's not the problem. Sure people are going to comment on the contrast and soft images and differences in sound quality. That's to be expected. The problem has been Eric's reaction to the criticism. Instead of offering a reasonable explanation of the limitations of what can be accomplished as you did RR, or when Pa had mentioned a slight pause in Chapter One, had said he hadn't noticed such a glich but would look into it, Eric accuses everyone of being ungrateful for what he has done and trying to control his work. If he had just not gotten so defensive over every little comment, DDOTW would have been his greatest accomplishment, instead it has fermented into even more anger, hurt and splintering within the fan community. All anybody asks is that everybody be reasonable. I'd post the same thing over on the Squadron site but it would just get deleted and I would be labeled a hater trying to prevent people from enjoying serials.
Edited by toddgault, Feb 26 2011, 05:44 PM.
Todd Gault..........Serial Buff
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Todd 3D
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The Madd Director
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Mr. Gault, you speak with the tongue of Solomon. I tend to find myself agreeing with you more and more. Your wisdom must be a side effect of your first name. ;)

I have recently been accused of not only being Mr. Hater-Pants (his quote, not mine), but of trying to ruin people's fun. I am wondering whose fun I am trying to ruin? Do people actually need my permission to enjoy DDOTW? If so, I unconditionally give it to one and all. Enjoy the serial by all means. Have as much fun watching it as you possibly can. It's a fun serial, very enjoyable.

Just please, don't tell me what I should think of Grood just because he released it.
"We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home"--Edward R. Murrow
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panzer the great & terrible
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Mouth Breather
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Thanks to riddle rider for explaining the contrast problem but now I'm confused. I thought Grood didn't use the Utah elements. Did he after all?

I thought it was clear that I like the release; I certainly am uninterested and even bored by the idea of fomenting hatred, splintering, and so on. What would be the point? We're just watching Grood have another childish fit. He's had dozens. An immature dealer in old movies for children? What next?
Life is just a bowl of cherries, it's too mysterious, don't take it serious...
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Todd 3D
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The Madd Director
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Grood claims he didn't use the Utah elements, that there was a mysterious new print that showed up. But then, he also claims that Paramount had no copyright on DDOTW, that Ace Drummond and I plotted for years to destroy SerialFest, and that toddgault and RR are sexual deviates. So, bear the source in mind.

Here's what we know of DDOTW. There are two known prints in existence:

1)The 16mm owned by Jack Mathis, now in the hands of BYU. This print is missing sound in five reels:
a)Chapter 1 Reel 1
b)Both Reels of Chapter 7
c)Chapter 8 Reel 2
d)Chapter 9 Reel 2

This is the print that was screened at SerialFest 2008 (which is where I first saw it) as well as in a couple of other film festivals.

You will note that the recreated sound on the DVD is in exactly these spots, btw.

2)A possibly 35mm print owned by Jerry Rosenthal that had no sound whatsoever. This print is now in the Archives of Paramount, I believe.

There's also the fabled third print that is supposed to exist in Austraila, but I doubt it's existence.

So, did he use the Utah print? He claims he didn't--at least that's the story he told Jim D'Arc--but the evidence seems to contradict it. Again, he claims Paramount has no rights to it, either. But Paramount is Republic's successor in interest. And as recently as 2006, the serial's copyright was used for a copyright mortgage. Which means the copyright is still very active.

Oh, and Mr. Panzer, I didn't necessarily mean you needed my permission. I'm just saying that Grood claims that my questions about the legality of the release are ruining the fun of the people who are watching it. And if that is the case and people feel they need my permission to have fun and enjoy it, then I grant that. I realize you don't need my permission at all and you did, in fact, enjoy it.

I enjoyed it, too. I just wonder if it's any more legal than he claims VCI's releases aren't. Come to it, I'll lay money VCI's releases are more legal than his.
"We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home"--Edward R. Murrow
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riddlerider
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Balcony Gang, Foist Class
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The existence of another print of DAREDEVILS OF THE WEST can't be ruled out. But neither can the possibility that aliens visited earth in 1930 and took Judge Crater with them when they left.

Forget, for a moment, that people have been chasing DAREDEVILS for decades. And they weren't all fanboys or film collectors, either. When Nostalgia Merchant became the licensee of Republic Pictures, that company's Earl Blair and Packy Smith conducted a world-wide search for DDotW. We know how that worked out.

Eric would have us believe that another print -- with the same physical characteristics, i. e., contrasty picture elements and sound missing from the same five reels -- miraculously materialized as he was preparing DDotW's release. We know he intended to use the Mathis print, because his initial announcements of the serial's impending release listed Brigham Young University (which owns the Mathis collection) and Jim D'Arc (who, among other things, is the curator of the Mathis collection) as co-sponsors or co-producers of the Squadron's DVD. We also know that Eric had access to BYU's video master because he outfitted the reels missing sound with Republic music for subsequent BYU-sanctioned screenings at the Memphis Film Festival and the Lone Pine Film Festival, where I saw the serial for the first time.

So now Dr. Grood claims he didn't use what's being called "the Utah print." Let's stipulate, just for fun, that what he says is true, that he was offered a separate 16mm print with exactly the same defects. But ask yourself this question:

Why would he want it?

What would be the point of making an arrangement with this other source -- and presumably there was an arrangement -- to get material that's identical to what he already had? Does that make any sense?

BYU was only willing to let him release a DAREDEVILS DVD utilizing their Jack Mathis print if and when he got Paramount's okay. Eric claims he did indeed secure Paramount's imprimatur. Maybe he did. If so, I find it odd that his packaging includes a copyright notice for Republic, which no longer exists, but not for Paramount, which does exist and is, as Todd pointed out, Republic's successor in interest. I don't think Paramount would be very happy to learn that their rights to DAREDEVILS OF THE WEST have not been recognized by a licensee.

Now, if Eric didn't make a deal with Paramount -- and I'm not saying he didn't, because I can't prove it one way or the other -- the sudden materialization of a second print was darned convenient. Because using that one freed him of the responsibility of producing an agreement with Paramount needed to get BYU's blessing to use their DAREDEVILS master. If Eric did properly license the serial, or if he got the studio to give him a waiver of some sort, why go to the trouble of remastering a second print -- especially since it didn't improve on the one he already had?

I don't give a shit whether the Squadron's DDotW is licensed or not. As I've said both privately and publicly, it's not my job; nobody appointed me to the copyright police. Eric did a superb job with the material available to him, wherever it came from, and I'm happy that other people are getting the chance to see the serial. High fives all around. But don't pee on my leg and then tell me it's raining.
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Todd 3D
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The Madd Director
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I'm not the copyright police myself and have had no problem buying bootlegs when that's all that's been available. Come to it, I'm pretty sure everyone on this board AND my board has the same line of thinking. After all, if you have a DVD of Columbia's Blackhawk serial, you have a bootleg and that's that. Most of the Columbia serials we own are bootlegs. I have a number of bootlegs of 3-D movies from the 50s (in 3-D, too). So I have no problem with that if that's the only way to get it.

What I don't go for is someone lecturing me to not buy a product from someone like VCI because it's probably not licensed or some such nonsense and then turning around and using at best specious logic to release your own unlicensed DVDs. That's all I'm saying.
"We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home"--Edward R. Murrow
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toddgault
Balcony Gang, Foist Class
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I don't think Paramount is too concerned about copyright infringement on DDOTW, a bunch of middle aged and old guys watching an 80 year old serial is not to high on their list of concerns, they're more interested in 14 year olds downloading Star Trek to a laptop in their grandmother's basements. Those people they will prosecute to the full extent of the law. So Eric really has nothing to worry about from Paramount, the money he makes from DDOTW isn't going to be enough to cut into their profits. As for VCI's legal rights to their serials, I'm pretty sure the company has a legal department to cover those bases.

Eric's biggest problem is that he wants two things that can't go together. He wants to be a successful businessman and he wants everyone to like him. Can't be done. You have to one or the other. You have to run a business like a business, or you have be everyone's friend, can't have both. That doesn't mean you can't be friendly, Trev Scott's a perfect example. He runs his business like a business, he is nice and friendly with everybody on the boards, and his free discs are a nice gesture, but they are also good promotions to show off his product and get sales, which it does, as evidenced by many people on this board ordering serials and movies from him. And if there was a problem with a disc he would deal with the complaint as a professional. And the irony is that most people like him, because he acts like a businessman.

But Eric doesn't act like a businessman, he would have to devote all of his time to the business, promised product would have to be put out on time and he would have to promote his products across a wide range of websites and magazines, which costs money. And he would have to offer discounts and deals, as well as free stuff to promote sales, anyone who has worked in retail knows that a loss leader will lead to bigger sales down the road. Running a business is a full time thing and is not for everyone, I know, I saw my wife struggle with a home business for over eight years, working 20 hours a day, 7 days a week, and have it just barely break even on a good week. Of course now she's working for a big company as an IT person so it worked out in the end, but my point is that she viewed the business as a business in a highly competitive field and eventually had to close it down (though she still has a couple of clients she does occasional work for in her free time), Eric comes off as someone who views his business as a hobby (which is what my site is). He works on certain products when he feels like it, does some promotion here and there. True he has a nice looking site, but a nice looking site doesn't make a real business. The site is a good promotional tool, but you have to have more than a site to get anywhere.

So he gets upset about every little comment, which you can't do as a businessman, loses you customers. But for some reason he doesn't want customers, he wants fans, people that think he is great and snap up everything he does for what he wants to charge. Can't work, to be successful in business you have to have a little emotional distance from the product. Could you imagine his reaction to someone suggesting he give away discs for free? He would view that as losing sales instead of seeing it as a promotional tool to increase sales. Which is why the Squadron will never become a business like VCI is.
Todd Gault..........Serial Buff
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