Health Care

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Health Care; cut-and-pasted from another site
Topic Started: Aug 11 2009, 08:45 AM (315 Views)
panzer the great & terrible	Aug 11 2009, 08:45 AM Post #1
Mouth Breather Posts: 10,326 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: September 3, 2005	A Dose of Reality The White House has set up a website called The Health Insurance Reform Reality Check to debunk the main attacks against their proposals. I'm glad they're doing this but just as some people will never be convinced the world is round, some will never believe that the new plan won't involve putting old folks to death when their medicine starts costing too much. A question for those who read this website: Have you seen — and if so, can you direct me to — an article that lays out a real case against the current reform proposals? I can't believe there aren't genuine, valid arguments against them but all the talking points we seem to get fall into one of three categories... 1. You take something rotten that health insurance companies do all the time like denying coverage. You make like that never happens but would constantly if the government got into the health care business, even though the government would have little or no incentive to do that thing, whereas for-profit companies have plenty. 2. You pretend that the government isn't already in the health care business...and quite successfully, at that. Has anyone ever seriously proposed turning the V.A. over to Aetna to run? I mean, besides maybe Aetna and those they pay to say such things. And has anyone checked to see how many Senators who oppose government-run health care are turning it down and buying Blue Shield policies for themselves and their loved ones? 3. You just plain lie about what's in the proposal. It's so long that no one's going to read it. So if you say, "Under this plan, if you get sick the government has the right to kill your housepets," no one's going to utterly disprove it. At best, some in the media will pit a talking head who says it's in there against one who says it's not and then act like it's all an open question. Seriously: Can anyone point to an article against the current proposals that doesn't play those games? I'd certainly be open to the argument that this particular Health Care Reform package is flawed in its design and details but no one seems to be making it. Instead, it's all about "death panels" and arranging for Granny to take the permanent dirt nap before she's ready for it.
	We Wear Short Shorts Flying Purple People Eater


Frank Hale	Aug 11 2009, 12:26 PM Post #2
Balcony Gang, Foist Class Posts: 828 Group: Members Member #59 Joined: October 6, 2005	You and Gravy should read Adam Cohen’s editorial piece in today’s NYT, which posits that the Supreme Court has decided to force the case “Citizens United vs. Federal Election Commission” in order to overthrow the current ban on direct corporate campaign contributions (as opposed to mere lobbying).



rodney	Aug 11 2009, 12:44 PM Post #3
Charter Member Posts: 1,303 Group: Members Member #3 Joined: September 2, 2005	In some states families can make over $80K a year and still qualify for government assistance. Why not just go all the way? Alternately, my friend Anna works as a photography teacher at a local art college (over 50 hours a week) while her husband works a perfectly acceptable blue collar job for a large outfit here in town. They have their first child, an eight month old girl. Neither job will offer benefits to them (Dalton is too new, and Anna is still considered "part time") and they make too much for government assistance in Ohio. What is she supposed to do? Get drunk and let me yank out her wisdom teeth? And people still believe that there's no problems with the Insurance system in this country.
	Raise a toast to St. Joe Strummer!


JazzGuyy	Aug 11 2009, 12:54 PM Post #4
Balcony Gang, Foist Class Posts: 2,173 Group: Members Member #110 Joined: June 1, 2006	I haven't been following this as closely as I should but I do have a couple of thoughts. At least since World War II every time the subject of changing anything about health care comes up there is this great upwelling of fear and almost panic among many of those who already have health care that any changes in the system will invariably take something away from them and ruin it for everyone. Depending on one's worst political fears, this can be fear of higher taxes, higher deficits, rationed medical care, people who don't work or who aren't citizens getting a free ride, the government telling you what care you can have or what doctor you can patronize. Interestingly we already have all of this stuff under our current system: Higher taxes in the sense that our take-home pay is being cut every year by increases in insurance premiums Higher deficits because the current system is affecting the overall economy and people are borrowing money to pay medical costs Rationed medical care because the insurance companies can severely limit what treatments are available to you and they do Look at any big city emergency room to see all the poor and homeless getting medical care Instead of the government telling you which doctors you can use, it is the insurance companies. (Why are they any better?) The one thing that has always struck me is that the U.S. is the only modern country in the world that doesn't have some sort of national medical coverage (not necessarily "socialized medicine" either). I have heard nothing that leads me to believe that the medical systems in all those other countries are falling apart or that people are being left to die when they cost to much to care for (which is happening in some places here). Why can every other civilized country have a rational, reasonably priced medical system and we can't? I want someone to explain that to me.



panzer the great & terrible	Aug 11 2009, 01:29 PM Post #5
Mouth Breather Posts: 10,326 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: September 3, 2005	I think it has something to do with the fact that new medications are mostly produced by American companies, but how that led to insurance companies refusing to pay for them is 'way beyond me. What is boils down to is that the insurers make sure we don't get up-to-date health care because we pay more for new medicines than folks in other countries do. Thanks a lot, fellers. Another thing: our phone numbers are on the federal no-phone-solicitation list, but every day in the past few weeks I've had at least one phone solicitation from some insurance company or other. How come they don't have to obey the law?
	We Wear Short Shorts Flying Purple People Eater


Pa Stark	Aug 11 2009, 10:25 PM Post #6
Charter Member Posts: 479 Group: Members Member #30 Joined: September 5, 2005	There should be universal health care, but we see much objection to the bill. Read Camille Paglia's column in Salon Magazine, and it can be read in the Drudge Report. Latest polls are 53% against the health care bill, 42% for.
	Honest and Lovable Pa Stark


panzer the great & terrible	Aug 13 2009, 08:47 AM Post #7
Mouth Breather Posts: 10,326 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: September 3, 2005	The insurance companies are on board now, and the thing's going to be hard to stop even if right wingnuts don't like it. Those guys should concentrate on modifying the plan, not stopping it, but since when did they listen to anybody but themselves? All this about the government murdering your Granny has people snickering at them. Bush disgraced his party and his country, and wrecked our economy to boot. Soldiers came back from Iraq to find their grandparents homeless: that'll be hard for young folks to forget. Just obstructing everything that comes down the pike ain't gonna help the Republican cause: either they learn to cooperate or they can count on at least ten years of no power at all...which would be OK with most Americans. The average age of Rush Limbaugh's listeners is now 62. Does that tell you conservatism has a rosy future? Incidentally I admire Paglia, and wish she'd stick to what she knows.
	We Wear Short Shorts Flying Purple People Eater


rodney	Aug 13 2009, 09:12 AM Post #8
Charter Member Posts: 1,303 Group: Members Member #3 Joined: September 2, 2005	Oh, I believe the poll. Sarah Palin has somehow convinced everyone that the liberals are going to kill everyone over 60.
	Raise a toast to St. Joe Strummer!


panzer the great & terrible	Aug 13 2009, 09:27 AM Post #9
Mouth Breather Posts: 10,326 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: September 3, 2005	Sarah Palin, the famous quitter, hasn't read the bill or much of anything else, and polls are phrased to get the answers pollsters want. I don't believe anything the rich bastards pay for who finance Drudge, Limbaugh and the rest of the choir. This whole thing hinges on whether Congress has the cojones to stand up to a slick publicity campaign. Dammit, my feet are swollen to the size of shoeboxes and I can't get the medicine I need. Any lawmaker who opposes this legislation is going to lose me for good.
	We Wear Short Shorts Flying Purple People Eater


Frank Hale	Aug 13 2009, 04:28 PM Post #10
Balcony Gang, Foist Class Posts: 828 Group: Members Member #59 Joined: October 6, 2005	As a practical matter, there’s no final proposal with which to agree or disagree. I believe most Americans favor a change of some sort. Jon, what’s going on with you? It’s one thing to be provocative for the sake of discussion and another to be deliberately weird.



Zodiac	Aug 13 2009, 05:01 PM Post #11
Balcony Gang, Foist Class Posts: 174 Group: Members Member #334 Joined: January 17, 2008	I am in the medical field- I own a couple companies that deal with early cancer detection, but I still I can be objective. I believe this issue is not universal health care, but rather universal health insurance. Eliminate the denials and previous condition BS, but every body pays something- no free rides. This eliminates the argument about not choosing ones doctors, death panels etc. However, the costs will be scary and will probably cost 10-15% or everyone's gross just to keep it solvent- is everyone ready for this?



panzer the great & terrible	Aug 13 2009, 11:25 PM Post #12
Mouth Breather Posts: 10,326 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: September 3, 2005	Frank, the system is messing with me. I can barely walk: Medicare and the supplements I buy won't do anything about it. I have to pay for my own medications even though they're cheap generics, and I buy prescription insurance. As for the expensive stuff I need for arthritis and psoriasis, can't have that. Pain isn't important: the customer doesn't matter. I feel the Republicans are using the health care issue only to bring Obama down, and to hell with us, and that makes me angry because I know some of us suffer. Is that so weird? The people getting a free ride now are the undeserving poor and the pharmaceutical companies. I know we have to pay for better health care. I already do pay, and don't get better health care. Health insurance eats my entire Social Security every month, but pays for little of what I need: at the same time Emergency Rooms are full of drunks and junkies who come in with small complaints and can't pay. That's one reason why hospital care is so costly. Ask health pros if you don't believe me. I hope the public can see through these Republican lies so we aren't left hanging once again, paying millions to do-nothing CEOs while the poor suffer.
	We Wear Short Shorts Flying Purple People Eater


panzer the great & terrible	Aug 13 2009, 11:31 PM Post #13
Mouth Breather Posts: 10,326 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: September 3, 2005	Frank, the system is messing with me. I can barely walk: Medicare and the supplements I buy won't do anything about it. I have to pay for my own medications even though they're cheap generics, and I buy prescription insurance. As for the expensive stuff I need for arthritis and psoriasis, can't have that. Pain isn't important: the customer doesn't matter. I feel the Republicans are using the health care issue only to bring Obama down, and to hell with us, and that makes me angry because I know some of us suffer. Is that weird? The people getting a free ride now are the undeserving poor and the pharmaceutical companies. I know we have to pay for better health care. I already do pay, and don't get much health care. Health insurance eats my entire Social Security every month, but pays for little of what I need: at the same time Emergency Rooms are full of drunks and junkies who come in with small complaints and can't pay at all. That's one reason why hospital care is so costly. Ask health pros if you don't believe me. I hope the public can see through these Republican lies so we aren't left hanging once again while poor people suffer a damn sight more than I do.
	We Wear Short Shorts Flying Purple People Eater


Frank Hale	Aug 22 2009, 04:58 PM Post #14
Balcony Gang, Foist Class Posts: 828 Group: Members Member #59 Joined: October 6, 2005	Sorry, Jon, I was baiting you, as I'm sure you know. And, of course, I knew you'd have a plausible and cogent response. Is this website the right format for the health insurance debate? Last we saw, RR was against the government telling him to lay off high-fat foods... And certain members happily chimed in. I don't know the answer, but I'll cheerfully offer my opinion after next week if anyone is interested.



Laughing Gravy	Aug 23 2009, 06:45 AM Post #15
Revered in the UK Posts: 11,062 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: August 31, 2005	I think we can talk about anything. I don't know the answer to the health care problem, so I hope the folks in Washington do.


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