| Welcome to In The Balcony. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Plus, you'll be eligible for the monthly $1 million prize. (Not really.) Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Number available? | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: May 20 2014, 11:54 AM (1,957 Views) | |
| riddlerider | May 31 2014, 07:11 AM Post #31 |
|
Balcony Gang, Foist Class
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Trevor, the so-called "official" list often referred to here is the one Alan Barbour compiled for his book Days of Thrills and Adventure. It included sound-era serials made in the U.S. primarily (but not exclusively) for domestic consumption. Detective Lloyd, while produced and directed by Henry MacRae, was made in Britain with an all-British cast and crew. The serial's U.K. title was Lloyd of the C.I.D., which would have had no meaning to young American viewers. So, obviously, changing the title to Detective Lloyd for American audiences indicates that Universal anticipated getting at least some bookings stateside. What I don't know is whether Universal included Lloyd in its domestic release slate of 1931-32 serials. As far as I know, there isn't any truly official list of serials that includes all chapter plays made internationally in both silent and sound eras. I'm not sure there ever could be, because there's still considerable disagreement as to what constitutes a movie serial. For example, every single published or otherwise disseminated list of silent serials includes one- and two-reel series pictures that aren't serials and were never marketed as such. (Including Beatrice Fairfax and The Leather Pushers, to take two examples.) The British and French also made series pictures that are confused for serials. |
![]() |
|
| The Batman | May 31 2014, 07:22 AM Post #32 |
![]()
Charter Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
This thread is getting quite interesting. What do you consider to be the "official" list of sound serials, RR. Do you consider it to only be the "231", or would include other, international productions. And if so, which ones, if not too many to list. And how about latter day serials, such as THIRTY SECOND DOOM, from 2008, do they count? Edited by The Batman, May 31 2014, 07:24 AM.
|
| Always be yourself! Unless you can be Batman...then always be Batman! | |
![]() |
|
| riddlerider | May 31 2014, 11:45 AM Post #33 |
|
Balcony Gang, Foist Class
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Well, at the risk of getting too deep in the weeds.... It's hard to come up with an "official" list of something when people disagree on its defining characteristics. Me, I draw a distinction between "sound" and "talkie" serials. Alan included Universal's five 1929-30 serials as "sound," but the reality is that they were conceived as silent serials, with sound (M&E tracks for all and talkie sequences for Ace of Scotland Yard) added for novelty value. I would begin the Universal list with the 1930-31 offerings, beginning with The Indians Are Coming, which was conceived as an all-talkie serial but also released as silent for houses not yet wired for sound. Likewise, Alan included Mascot's King of the Kongo because it had talkie sequences in each chapter. But the serial was conceived and marketed as a silent, and if you've heard any of the surviving sound sequences or read the dialogue sheets unearthed by our own John Doe, it's easy to tell that the talkie scenes are extraneous. I began my list of Mascot talkies with The Lone Defender (1930), which, like Indians Are Coming, was planned and marketed as an all-talking production. Since I'm interested primarily in American serials, my own personal list is restricted to those chapter plays produced in Hollywood and released theatrically. Using those parameters you get 225, if my math's right. Some people consider Commando Cody: Sky Marshal of the Universe a serial because it had theatrical playdates. But Republic didn't; studio records and marketing materials refer to it as a series of featurettes. As good as Captain Celluloid is, I don't include it because it wasn't a commercial production or release. It was a home movie made by and for serial fans, and Lou MacMahon would be the first to admit it. The same goes for Todd's abominations and other non-professional productions. I don't consider something posted on YouTube as having been commercially released, even though it has the potential to reach a large audience. Frankly, where an "official" list is concerned I think you could make a stronger case for including such TV series as 24 and Breaking Bad, especially the former. Every season of 24 has a separate plot; each episode picks up where the last left off; and each ends in the middle of a suspenseful situation designed to bring the viewer back next week. Many have actual "cliffhanger" endings showing Jack Bauer caught in explosions, shootouts, car crashes, etc. But for historical purposes it's a whole lot easier to define the serial era as ending with Blazing the Overland Trail. At least, that's what I do. Your mileage may vary, as the cliché goes. |
![]() |
|
| The Batman | May 31 2014, 02:01 PM Post #34 |
![]()
Charter Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Thanks, RR, very interesting. I tend to agree with your parameters, but didn't realize about the part concerning the silent serials that Alan counted as in the sound serial list. I think this is the first time I have heard the number 225 used. I'm not opposed to checking out "serials" outside that list, but I think it's a solid definition for the American Sound Serial. I also agree about 24, it does contain all the elements of a serial, and it was fun, as well. |
| Always be yourself! Unless you can be Batman...then always be Batman! | |
![]() |
|
| LaneCarson | May 31 2014, 03:19 PM Post #35 |
|
Charter Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
American Sound Serial sounds good to me - which means that Detective Lloyd should not be part of it |
![]() |
|
| Pa Stark | Jun 1 2014, 03:51 PM Post #36 |
|
Charter Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
In the early 70's, a lot more sound serials were considered lost or unavailable, most of them have surfaced. Here is what was missing back then that surfaced: Republic: THE LONE RANGER THE LONE RANGER RIDES AGAIN ADVENTURES OF RED RYDER KING OF THE ROYAL MOUNTED KING OF THE MOUNTIES DAREDEVILS OF THE WEST Columbia: THE MYSTERIOUS PILOT FLYING G-MEN MANDRAKE THE MAGICIAN TERRY AND THE PIRATES CAPTAIN MIDNIGHT THE PHANTOM BRENDA STAR, REPORTER CHICK CARTER, DETECTIVE JACK ARMSTRONG SUPERMAN ATOM MAN VS. SUPERMAN Universal: TARZAN THE TIGER CLANCY OF THE MOUNTED PIRATE TREASURE THE VANISHING SHADOW JUNGLE JIM SECRET AGENT X-9 (1937) THE GREEN HORNET THE GREEN HORNET STRIKES AGAIN ADVENTURES OF SMILIN' JACK SECRET AGENT X-9 (1945) That makes 27 more serials that are now available to us, back then only 191 were available, but only on 16mm. |
| Honest and Lovable Pa Stark | |
![]() |
|
| riddlerider | Jun 1 2014, 05:21 PM Post #37 |
|
Balcony Gang, Foist Class
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I've made this point before — probably more than once — but it bears repeating, especially for new Balconeers. Before 1970 serial fandom didn't exist, at least not in any formal sense. In those pre-videocassette days it was difficult to see any serials unless you knew or had access to collectors of 16mm films. I was fortunate in that New York City, which was only 35 miles from my home, was a hotbed of collector activity. In the mid and late Sixties, Alan G. Barbour held regular screenings in his Queens, New York apartment for a group that included Screen Thrills Illustrated editors Sam Sherman and Bob Price, Captain Celluloid director Lou MacMahon and star Bob Miller, film historians Ed Connor and John Cocchi, artist Gray Morrow, and various others that drifted in and out depending upon what was being shown. But the key member of the group was writer/historian Chris Steinbrunner, who worked for local station WOR-TV as the film programmer and buyer. Chris would frequently rent serials from their TV distributors, ostensibly for broadcast by WOR but actually for private consumption in Alan's living room. Although I had met Alan in 1967 and bought his publications by mail, I was a little too young to attend his screenings. But by the time I started college in 1971, Alan's small get-togethers had been supplanted by weekly programs mounted under the auspices of the Co-operative Film Society, a loosely structured conglomeration of the area's 16mm collectors. The Co-op's theater/clubhouse was a converted machine shop in the basement of a Hell's Kitchen tenement building. We called it "Joe's Place" because the shop belonged to Joe Judice, a mechanic and handyman who owned a massive collection: more than 500 feature films (almost all of them B Westerns, mysteries, and series pictures), 40 to 45 complete serials, and hundreds of short subjects and TV episodes. The club was called the Co-op because members who were also collectors were expected to loan goodies from their personal archives. But Joe's collection was the basis for most of the programming. On Friday nights we watched three feature films, grouped by star, director or genre. Every other Saturday night was reserved for a serial, which was shown complete with one or two breaks depending on length. Each attendee kicked in five bucks per show. After half the total was subtracted for overhead (the shop's rental, electricity, and water bills), the remaining money went either to the collector supplying that evening's prints or to defray the cost of rentals from legitimate sources. Now, this was hardly the optimal way to see a serial for the first time. A 15-chapter Columbia, with half-hour breaks after Chapter Five and Ten, took six hours to screen. Although the scheduled start time was 7 p.m., we rarely got underway until 7:15 or 7:30. So it could be close to 1:30 a.m. before we got out. But we hewed to that schedule for years, with no complaints. Why? Because, in many cases, we felt we might never get another chance to see that particular serial. If it was one of Joe's, there was always a chance of catching it the next time it came up in the rotation. But as the frequency of Alan Barbour's screenings dropped off, Chris Steinbrunner began renting TV prints of serials for Joe's Place. He got cut-rate prices by agreeing to keep the print for just one weekend. A Canadian distributor obtained TV rights to the Columbia serials (which had never played in the New York market), and around 1973 we finally got the chance to see most of those, including the legendary Horne-directed serials like The Green Archer, The Iron Claw, White Eagle, etc. At the time we considered ourselves lucky and believed we might never get another bite at those apples. So, again, we sat through all 15 chapters in one evening because we had no other choice. During the ten or so years I was a Joe's Place regular — for a while I ran the projectors and had my own set of keys to the shop — I saw for the first time more than a hundred serials complete in one sitting. By the early Eighties, with bootleg VHS copies of serials and B Westerns becoming common via home dupers, those marathon screenings at Joe's Place became unnecessary and attendance started falling off. Those of us who collected 16mm still preferred prints to tapes, although buying a serial on film was a very expensive proposition: $400 to $500 each, more if it was a particularly clean print of a rare or desirable title. So even though serials on video are collected today by people older than me, I consider them whippersnappers who are spoiled by easy accessibility. As pointed out earlier in this thread, with some patience and a little digging, one can purchase a VHS or DVD copy of practically all the surviving sound serials. Today's serial fans thus have advantages we old-timers never anticipated. Back in 1971 when I purchased the first edition of Alan's Days of Thrills and Adventure and studied that list in the back, I made it my goal to see every sound serial — but I never really thought I'd be able to do it. I meant to touch on the phenomenon of conventions devoted to fans and collectors of serials and B Westerns, but this post is too long already. |
![]() |
|
| riddlerider | Jun 1 2014, 05:37 PM Post #38 |
|
Balcony Gang, Foist Class
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
It just occurred to me that the above statement could be interpreted as a put-down, which was not my intent. The point I was trying to make is that, today, it's very easy to take for granted what many of us "back in the day" thought of as a major accomplishment. Forty years ago we hardly dared consider the possibility of seeing all the sound serials, so we really appreciated the ones we did see under less than optimal conditions. |
![]() |
|
| Frank Hale | Jun 1 2014, 06:18 PM Post #39 |
|
Balcony Gang, Foist Class
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I enjoyed your post, because, although I'm a few years older than you, I also lived in the area and had no idea such things were going on back then. Whatever serials I saw in the 60's were on the tube. Actually what I get from your comments is how much we've lost of the social aspects of watching films together. I know that you built some life-long friends, which no one is ever going to do watching DVD's holed up in his apartment. I'm fairly neutral on the films themselves. I enjoy B's and serials, but clearly not to the extent that a lot of people here do. I think a 6 hour session of a Columbia serial might have been a struggle for me even back then (although I remember being very jealous of a friend who went into NYC to see that complete Batman theatrical screening.) Anyway, lacking that compulsive aspect, I'm simply grateful for whatever I get to see now in my golden years, courtesy of DVD's and Blu-Rays. |
![]() |
|
| Bulleteer | Jun 1 2014, 07:22 PM Post #40 |
![]()
Balcony Gang
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Well, my reason for starting this thread is irrelevant now. I'm learning tons more than I expected. Thanks to everyone. |
| "Atomic activity on the moon. Atomic blasts on the Earth." | |
![]() |
|
| turan38 | Jun 1 2014, 07:36 PM Post #41 |
|
Balcony Gang, Foist Class
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Wow, does that bring back memories! I grew up in Astoria, New York, and started collecting 16mm beginning in 1966. Sometime c. 1967-68 a friend took me to Joe's place one Saturday, and we saw "Lost City" (or at least stayed for a number of chapters). The only serial I actually owned in 16mm was "Ace Drummond." As time marched on and the responsibility for providing for a family weighed in I eventually sold my collection and bought a VCR. At the time, watching video tapes played back on a 24" TV monitor wasn't the same as projecting 16mm on a large screen, but financial exigency necessitated it. |
![]() |
|
| Laughing Gravy | Jun 1 2014, 08:23 PM Post #42 |
|
Look for In The Balcony on Facebook!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Ghoulardi played the Flash Gordon serials in 1965-66 on TV in Cleveland, and I didn't see another serial for over a decade, when Batman played weekly at the midnight movie at Akron University, to great howls. By this time, PBS in town was showing Flash again. My next serial was Flash Gordon Conquers the Universe in the fall of 1986, from a VHS tape, kicking off the Friday night Films parties we still have all these years later. (Paid $12 for FG, then $40 for Space Soldiers, then $60 for Cap'n Marvel, by which time the serial tapes had dropped to $30, which seemed fair to us, although when they dropped to $20, we were even happier.) |
| "I'm glad that this question came up, because there are so many ways to answer it that one of them is bound to be right." - Robert Benchley | |
![]() |
|
| The Batman | Jun 2 2014, 09:48 AM Post #43 |
![]()
Charter Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
RR, these posts of yours, with there wealth of information and interesting personal remembrances, are always among my favourite around here. This has turned into a highly enjoyable thread and I hope you follow up with a post about the phenomenon of conventions devoted to fans and collectors of serials and B Westerns. |
| Always be yourself! Unless you can be Batman...then always be Batman! | |
![]() |
|
| JazzGuyy | Jun 2 2014, 02:12 PM Post #44 |
|
Balcony Gang, Foist Class
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I wonder what the relationship of the serial conventions was to science fiction conventions. I never went to any of them but was aware of them and remember reading that the showing of sci-fi themed serials often took place at them. I suspect that some there was a fair amount of overlap between serial fans and science fiction aficionados. I'm sure RR will educate us all. |
| TANSTAAFL! | |
![]() |
|
| moodyhound | Jun 3 2014, 04:58 AM Post #45 |
|
Balcony Gang, Foist Class
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
These comments made me wonder what the average age is on serial watchers/collectors.
|
![]() |
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Continued Next Week · Next Topic » |





![]](http://z2.ifrm.com/static/1/pip_r.png)






6:52 AM Jul 11