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Porky Pig 101; no good.
Topic Started: Sep 22 2017, 10:55 AM (2,909 Views)
thadk
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Must be because they're just stupid cartoons—who cares?
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thadk
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At least 25 of the cartoons have soundtrack issues. They range from having the wrong version of the theme song (some of the cartoons incorrectly have "The Merry Go Round Broke Down" before it even existed; Porky saying "That's All Folks!" when it was just the lettering) to getting completely desecrated like this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmgUvNvlIDY

https://youtu.be/HGqkVqVKnIM

But if you don't see this as a problem, that's cool.
Edited by thadk, Sep 26 2017, 08:11 AM.
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Frank Hale
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Well, speaking for myself, and not Gravy:

AFAIK Grood had no reason to clone the Captain America first chapter credits over and over other than pure ego or cussedness. He just made more work for himself, and made the film longer, despite his later claim that disc capacity forced him to do it. (And IIRC, the short version credits did appear on some of the later chapters, Mr. Bats, so he could have done it right.)

My track record with the Archive and Mr. Feltenstein has been much more pleasant, and I've simply been more inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, not knowing what was going on behind the scenes.

I don't see that as hypocrisy or an endorsement of unwarranted or sloppy alterations to the films. I see it as trying to be reasonable rather than dogmatic.

As I said, I'm pretty much in the purist camp also, and I haven't seen the Porky set yet. If there are 25 cartoons with the kinds of problems that Thad has highlighted on YouTube, that is definitely going to be a pretty big letdown.

OTOH, I'm fairly confident I'll wind up keeping it also. It's the only game in town, was reasonably cheap, and there may still be 76 good cartoons. I will also file that decision under unfortunate necessary compromises, rather than hypocrisy, and hope that they clean up their act in the future.

(And hey! if there's enough outcry, they might recall the darn thing. They care about their reputation as far I can tell.)

I'm going to be gone for a few days, so you fellows will have to continue the argument discussion without me temporarily. Don't take my silence as an admission of guilt.
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The Batman
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All fair points, Mr Hale.

But why do you and LG go on about messed up credits, like it ruins the whole viewing experience, but have no problem supporting a release that has incorrect music (among other things) on 25% of its content that occurs after the credits and actually during the thing that's trying to entertain you.

Honestly, I want correct credits on everything, too. But it just kills me when a studio produces and excellent DVD release of an old film, restored to pristine, filled with extras and some whiner complains that they used the re-issue credits on it. Whatever that release may be and by whomever.

Really? That's what you are complaining about? Why, couldn't find anything else to complain about it?

And if someone is that much of a purist about credits, should you really be supporting this Porky Pig release?

But, then again, I'm pretty sure you and LG both have the Serial Squadron version of Captain America (though, I can only speculate one of you paid for it, the other likes to brag how he gets people to copy SS DVDs for him because he ain't paying one more dime to Grood and the stealing is somehow justified in this instance).

If the reason is just because it is Grood, that doesn't really cut it.

(Look forward to your response when you return)

Always be yourself! Unless you can be Batman...then always be Batman!
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Frank Hale
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I'm not leaving until tomorrow morning.

Gee, I don't know, disliking (or perhaps more accurately not trusting) Grood has always seemed like a pretty good justification for my opinions in the past. Works for me anyway.

Anyway, I feel like I've pretty much already answered your questions in my prior post, and I don't want to beat it into the ground, but I can give you a few more examples of my take on the purist thing.

I used the word "motivation" earlier, and it definitely has an effect on my temperature gauge.

Last night I watched a Gene Autry film "Rootin' Tootin' Rhythm". It was a re-release print with the opening credits rearranged. However, the UCLA was involved, so I was pretty confident it was the best they could do, and didn't have a coronary.

I didn't like the erased wires on James Bond's jet in "Goldfinger", or the scrubbed auto in the background on "Shane", but I decided the studios felt it necessary to pacify an unsophisticated home video audience, and was content to have only mild seizures.

When I get the feeling that someone like Grood has messed with a film for no apparent good reason other than deliberately to stick his thumb in my eye, I reserve the right to resent it and hold a grudge. (And, in my defense, I must point out that I really don't lie awake every night seething with resentment over this issue.)

The Warner Archive has put out some great stuff. Take a look at "The Man and the Moment". The synchronized version is lost, but they came up with a complete set of Vitaphone discs and a silent version print from a foreign film archive. They went to a great deal of trouble to match up two differently lengthed versions of a totally obscure film previously thought lost, to be released on a DVD which will probably sell all of a hundred copies. Why wouldn't I give them the benefit of the doubt until I find out they don't deserve it?

As John Maynard Keynes is said to have asked some politician, "When the facts change, I revise my opinion. What do you do, Sir?" If the Porky set turns out to be a total loser when I see it, I'll admit it.


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The Batman
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Off the top, Mr Hale, I must say that though we aren't eye-to-eye on this subject, it's great to have an active thread around here actually dedicated to a subject this board is supposed to represent. Combined, I don't think the two of us have typed this much around here in quite a while.

But, I digress.

I agree with all your points, what can I say? You give good reasoning.

But...I guess the one thing I should have asked, which didn't occur to me until now, is:

Why do you, LG and whomever else feel that "Grood has messed with a film for no apparent good reason other than deliberately to stick his thumb in my eye"?

Is there proof that he did this? Or is this all he had to work with?

I'm asking this in all honesty. I don't know the backstory on the SS release of CAPTAIN AMERICA, beyond the fact that LG has repeatedly complained about this credit issue. And the fact that I am glad to have a copy.

If these complaints are valid, I'll man up with an apology. But at this point, what "proof" exists that Grood did anything deliberately on this particular release?

Always be yourself! Unless you can be Batman...then always be Batman!
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Laughing Gravy
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I don't have the interest to spend much time on the argument, but "it ruins the whole viewing experience" is not something I think I've ever said in relation to changed credits, censorship, or the like. (Colorization absolutely does ruin the viewing experience.) In the specific case of Cap'n America, please remember that I show serials to a lot of people over one-chapter-a-week, and Grood splicing in the opening chapter credits into the following chapters gave the nice folks in my living room an incorrect idea of how serials were presented back in the day, which is what my FNF is s'posed to recreate to the best of our ability. Creating a credit for Boris Karloff in another serial was just stupid and insulting - we knew who he was.

As Mr. Hale so eloquently put it, I'm giving Warners the benefit of the doubt because of their track record and because I've watched a bunch of the cartoons and loved 'em and not a single thing has bothered me yet.

If the Archive didn't exist, I wouldn't have many, many, many of the sets I go back to again and again: Benchley and the Vitaphones especially. God bless 'em, I say.
"I'm glad that this question came up, because there are so many ways to answer it that one of them is bound to be right." - Robert Benchley
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The Batman
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The Batman
Sep 26 2017, 04:29 PM
But...I guess the one thing I should have asked, which didn't occur to me until now, is:

Why do you, LG and whomever else feel that "Grood has messed with a film for no apparent good reason other than deliberately to stick his thumb in my eye"?

Is there proof that he did this? Or is this all he had to work with?

I'm asking this in all honesty. I don't know the backstory on the SS release of CAPTAIN AMERICA, beyond the fact that LG has repeatedly complained about this credit issue. And the fact that I am glad to have a copy.

If these complaints are valid, I'll man up with an apology. But at this point, what "proof" exists that Grood did anything deliberately on this particular release?


Until this question is answered, I have to think what I have to think.

Always be yourself! Unless you can be Batman...then always be Batman!
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AndyFish
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Well as I read through the thread I added Porky to my cart- deleted it and added it back in again.
While I'd love to see them perfectly presented as they were, I'd also love to see them, so I ordered the set.
There are other things going on in the world for me to fight battles over, Porky isn't one of them for me. But I certainly sympathize with those of you who are upset by this.

When GOODTIMES "officially" released the first Batman serial I was horrified by the PC changes they made to it but I was happy to finally have a copy of the serial where I could actually make out the faces. I watched those over and over again and grimaced everytime the altered dialogue or narration played. Eventually Sony released them on DVD the right way.

So just because we buy PORKY doesn't mean a corrected version doesn't arrive somewhere down the road.
www.andytfish.com
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The Batman
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Andy, I felt the same way about the Batman serial.

As for Porky, I had already cancelled, but a buddy wasn't able to cancel in time, so he has it. Just going to borrow his for now, and check it out.

Always be yourself! Unless you can be Batman...then always be Batman!
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Laughing Gravy
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Thad's blog is informative, as always. He says there are problems with maybe 25% of the cartoons (which a casual fan like me hasn't noticed anyway) so maybe you should just consider this a set of 75 fine Porky Pig cartoons and 25 "bonus" cartoons. It's still worth the money.

Me, I'm lovin' the whole set.
"I'm glad that this question came up, because there are so many ways to answer it that one of them is bound to be right." - Robert Benchley
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rodney
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Some fans are actually going so far as to correct the soundtracks themselves, which is kind of a ridiculous thing to have to do.

Your mileage may vary, but the provided YouTube links showcase a couple of the most glaring errors.

Me? I sold my set on eBay and actually made a couple of bucks, but I've had pretty decent copies of these (visually not as nice as what is in the set) for years.
Edited by rodney, Oct 9 2017, 03:40 AM.
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Frank Hale
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The first part of the Nitrateville podcast dated 10/12/17 on this website features a discussion with Jerry Beck (after the usual why-Porky-is-important stuff) on the practical difficulties of bringing Porky 101 to home video.

I'm about half way through the first Porky disc, and already definitely agree that there are some soundtrack issues that could easily have been corrected.

Still, Jerry's take may make you more accommodating.

Later on, he also goes off on Captain Marvel, but I didn't find that part particularly illuminating.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/nitrateville-radio/id1218406758?mt=2


Edit:

And, oh, yeah, btw:

"Plane Dippy" on disc 1 is a terrific cartoon.

Fantastic swing music by Bernard Brown, Tex Avery humor. Loved it.

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Laughing Gravy
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Funny you should mention Plane Dippy, Mr. H - I've lost count of how many of these things I've watched so far, but that's my favorite I've seen, and the onliest "older" Porky Pig I selected to show to my FNF crowd (we're in the midst of 1940, chronologically, but I liked Plane Dippy so much I couldn't resist).
"I'm glad that this question came up, because there are so many ways to answer it that one of them is bound to be right." - Robert Benchley
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thadk
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Plane Dippy is just one of those unfailingly likable cartoons that everyone seems to remember. While I was disappointed when I heard there'd be no restoration, it really was mostly over the fact that that first year of Tex Avery Looney Tunes was deemed unworthy of the deluxe treatment. That's where the Warner style of humor, and a really a whole culture, was born. They look serviceable, but I'd love a reprieve if only for those few.
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