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Religion Megathread; The formation of life on Earth.
Topic Started: May 13 2007, 12:48 PM (1,562 Views)
European Son
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I have opened this thread rather tentatively to gather some indication of people's beliefs on this board, and for discussion of exactly why you believe them.

Could be epic.

I'd really like for anyone of the Creation (or Intelligent Design, a different theory but of the same basis) belief to challenge, and to explore exactly why you believe one theory and not the other.

I am a firm believer in Darwin's theory of Evolution, as it has remained a firm and overwhelmingly supported hypothesis since its formation. The constantly accumulating evidence FOR this theory has also defined my belief, as well as my fervent views on the 'alternative', which essentially is based on nothing but unsupported, primitive ideals.

This is purely my viewpoint, and I urge people to challenge it.

Changed thread title rather than split the secondary debate.
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Dneezy
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European Son
May 13 2007, 12:48 PM
I am a firm believer in Darwin's theory of Evolution, as it has remained a firm and overwhelmingly supported hypothesis since its formation. The constantly accumulating evidence FOR this theory has also defined my belief, as well as my fervent views on the 'alternative', which essentially is based on nothing but unsupported, primitive ideals.

While I do feel we are evolved from more primitive people, I think that mankind was created. The idea of bacteria washing ashore somewhere, sprouting legs and feet, then a brain and whatnot seems both irrational and illogical. I think we were created, and then evolved from there. Look at the human brain, the human body, or the circulatory system. I just cannot allow myself to believe that simply developed on its own over time.
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Mars
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Igor Bonanimals
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I am warning everyone from the beginning. You must show some common respect and decency for what other people believe in. I don't want insults, I want serious and moderated discussion (fitting for such a board, don't you think?) on the subject of this debate. I also acknowledge the fact that this is a hot button issue, so tempers are bound to rise occasionally.

One vote for Evolution, please. I am an atheist because I believe in science and the laws of the universe. I'm often torn in a moral sense between accepting all moderate religion or being biased toward atheism. British biologist Richard Dawkins puts forward a somewhat convincing argument against religion, but I am hesitant to adopt his "scourge of the Earth" approach. I am friends with Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus and a whole lot more - they're all a decent bunch. I believe that all religions are tainted by the fundamentalist nutters that reside within all.

This ties into the Creation issue because it is the aforementioned nutters of the Christian variety who wish to teach the pseudoscience of ID (Intelligent Design) in schools. This must be stopped at all costs. The principals of secular education must remain standing otherwise we're all screwed. I also feel a great rage whenever the Pope makes a statement regarding contraceptives and their "insidious nature." Millions of people are dying of HIV AIDS and you sir, are encouraging this. Religious persons who adopt this viewpoint are a completely different kind of nut. Like I said, I'm generally ok with a moderate Christian (for example) but when you start advocating the spreading of diseases, you need to be shot. In the arms and legs.

I suppose I could sum my views up with. "Religion's cool until you do harm (in any way) in the name of religion, advocate harm in the name of religion, or try to extend your religious beliefs toward anyone but yourself."

My cellar is full of door-knocking Mormons.
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European Son
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Dneezy
May 13 2007, 12:57 PM
European Son
May 13 2007, 12:48 PM
I am a firm believer in Darwin's theory of Evolution, as it has remained a firm and overwhelmingly supported hypothesis since its formation. The constantly accumulating evidence FOR this theory has also defined my belief, as well as my fervent views on the 'alternative', which essentially is based on nothing but unsupported, primitive ideals.


While I do feel we are evolved from more primitive people, I think that mankind was created. The idea of bacteria washing ashore somewhere, sprouting legs and feet, then a brain and whatnot seems both irrational and illogical. I think we were created, and then evolved from there. Look at the human brain, the human body, or the circulatory system. I just cannot allow myself to believe that simply developed on its own over time.

This is purely an uneducated and glaringly fallacious viewpoint.

1. "The idea of bacteria washing ashore somewhere, sprouting legs and feet, then a brain and whatnot seems both irrational and illogical."

Firstly, you're committing the logical fallacy of arguing from personal incredulity. If you don't fully understand something, you can't criticize or reconstruct it with such blanket ease. This is the same as saying "It's so complex, I can't even imagine how it would happen by accident." Utterly false and completely inaccurate.

2. I think we were created, and then evolved from there. Look at the human brain, the human body, or the circulatory system. I just cannot allow myself to believe that simply developed on its own over time.

Again, you're arguing from personal incredulity. You can't 'allow time' to acknowledge what is fact, and what we know thanks to questioning and the continuous discovery and explanation of evidence, however you can quite easily dismiss biological science and go for the easy option: One intelligent being created the entire universe, and allowed us to develop contradictory science to 'challenge our beliefs.'

You should actually 'allow yourself the time' to discover evidence, rather than unsupported literal ideas.

In a time without any substantial scientific understanding, I can easily understand that such wonders as the Sun etc. would appeal to primitive beings as almighty, and provide some logic for what they know. However, thanks to science, we know that this isn't the case, and just what we are, according to physical and testable evidence.

(Note: This is not a criticism of you Dneezy, but your argument. Don't be offended.)
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Dneezy
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If you don't fully understand something, you can't criticize or reconstruct it with such blanket ease.

Nor am I trying to. I understand where you are coming from, but I don't think you even want to try to understand my viewpoint. If you do not think my ideas and beliefs are factual, don't automatically call them "Utterly false and completely inaccurate." You claim to have tons of proof, but you have provided none. All you have done was break down my post and say I have no proof.

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You can't 'allow time' to acknowledge what is fact

If this is fact why are we even debating this? You might as well lock this Thread.

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However, thanks to science, we know that this isn't the case, and just what we are, according to physical and testable evidence.

Give me some then.

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(Note: This is not a criticism of you Dneezy, but your argument. Don't be offended.)

I'm good.
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European Son
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Evidence? Try Biological Science to start. I haven't enough time on the planet to give all of it to you, however the following may summarize it nicely.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html
http://www.darwins-theory-of-evolution.com/
http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/theory-of-evolution.htm
http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/evoldef.htm
http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Charles-Darw...y-Evolution.htm

I'm not going to provide literary or scholarly sources, as they're inaccessible in the context of this debate. If you're interested though, Google Scholar has limitless papers.

The difference between these sites, and creationist literature, is the evidence that is presented by evolution is substantiated, probed, questioned and refined. Creation and faith is about doing the exact opposite.

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If this is fact why are we even debating this? You might as well lock this Thread.


I want people to challenge their beliefs, and really question them. With respect, it seems that many (including myself) were raised as almost 'default' Christians. Once I began to question, and explore creation and evolution critically, it became oh so clear.

I understand your viewpoint, and I'm simply explaining why it's logically flawed. Speaking of evidence, apart from incredulity, what evidence do you have to support your 'it doesn't seem possible' conclusion?
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Dneezy
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European Son
May 13 2007, 01:10 PM
however you can quite easily dismiss biological science and go for the easy option: One intelligent being created the entire universe, and allowed us to develop contradictory science to 'challenge our beliefs.'

You say that as if it couldn't happen. You think that if we were created by a single being that we would not have been given the ability to question the very place we come from?
Here are some quotes that you can think about:


Quote:
 
Human Imagination is mankind’s only link with the omnipotent Creator - without this powerful capability there could be no speculation about the nature of God or his creations.

If god really did put us on the planet, would he give us imagination? Some people feel that it is proof there is no god because If god created us he would not let us think on our own or challenge the idea of his existence. This however, is not true. The human brain is what separates us (humans) from other species. We have the abilities of Creativity, Personality, Abstract thinking, and Moral Judgments. Just because we can 'challenge our creators existence' does not simply dismiss all of the other factors.

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Human Imagination is made up of a "Learning" imagination and a "Creative" imagination. The Learning imagination is the ability of humans to learn to associate sounds and symbols with abstract ideas in their mind and to communicate these abstract ideas with other minds. The Creative imagination is the ability to create new concepts, innovations and art.

The human mind is a wonderful thing. We can make new inventions, problem solve, and figure out ways to improve our life. Maybe my brain is inferior to everyone else's, but I just cannot grasp this idea of evolution. How can everything, the birds, the dogs, the animals, the people all come from bacteria that has evolved and became so advanced?
Although knowing your origin is great and all, it shouldn't really be the main issue of the world. There is no way anyone can be 100% sure with one way or the other. I may be what you call one of the 'default' Christians, but I feel strongly about my ideas and refuse to think otherwise. Although you propose a scientifically reasonable point, I still do not think we have evolved from what Darwin's theory claims we have.
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Mars
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Dneezy, you prove to be a weaker debater than I had assumed by completely sidestepping European Son's carefully selected evidence. I am disappointed in you and have now placed you in my mental file of "PEOPLE WHO IT IS POINTLESS TO ARGUE WITH."

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Although knowing your origin is great and all, it shouldn't really be the main issue of the world. There is no way anyone can be 100% sure with one way or the other.

Of course in science we can never be 100% sure of anything, we can only support a theory with evidence. The theory of evolution is supported by gargantuan amounts of evidence. Your petty little Creation myth has absolutely nothing going for it.

Again and again (as Euro pointed out) you commit the logical fallacy of Argument from Personal Incredulity. It is defined as "I can't (or won't) comprehend this therefore, it must be false." This is incredibly frustrating to me.

I resign from this debate, unless you wish to change tact to something not completely based in ignorance.
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European Son
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Dneezy
May 13 2007, 02:04 PM
QUOTE (European Son @ May 13 2007, 01:10 PM)
however you can quite easily dismiss biological science and go for the easy option: One intelligent being created the entire universe, and allowed us to develop contradictory science to 'challenge our beliefs.'

You say that as if it couldn't happen. You think that if we were created by a single being that we would not have been given the ability to question the very place we come from?
Here are some quotes that you can think about:


QUOTE
Human Imagination is mankind’s only link with the omnipotent Creator - without this powerful capability there could be no speculation about the nature of God or his creations.

If god really did put us on the planet, would he give us imagination? Some people feel that it is proof there is no god because If god created us he would not let us think on our own or challenge the idea of his existence. This however, is not true. The human brain is what separates us (humans) from other species. We have the abilities of Creativity, Personality, Abstract thinking, and Moral Judgments. Just because we can 'challenge our creators existence' does not simply dismiss all of the other factors.

QUOTE
Human Imagination is made up of a "Learning" imagination and a "Creative" imagination. The Learning imagination is the ability of humans to learn to associate sounds and symbols with abstract ideas in their mind and to communicate these abstract ideas with other minds. The Creative imagination is the ability to create new concepts, innovations and art.

The human mind is a wonderful thing. We can make new inventions, problem solve, and figure out ways to improve our life. Maybe my brain is inferior to everyone else's, but I just cannot grasp this idea of evolution. How can everything, the birds, the dogs, the animals, the people all come from bacteria that has evolved and became so advanced?
Although knowing your origin is great and all, it shouldn't really be the main issue of the world. There is no way anyone can be 100% sure with one way or the other. I may be what you call one of the 'default' Christians, but I feel strongly about my ideas and refuse to think otherwise. Although you propose a scientifically reasonable point, I still do not think we have evolved from what Darwin's theory claims we have.

In answer to the claim that 'elements of our mind are so complex, there's no way that Evolution can explain that; I firstly direct you to the following.

These two passages describe Logical Fallacies, the following of which you are committing, making your arguments void for the most part.

Quote:
 
Ad ignorantum: The argument from ignorance basically states that a specific belief is true because we don't know that it isn't true. Defenders of extrasensory perception, for example, will often overemphasize how much we do not know about the human brain. UFO proponents will often argue that an object sighted in the sky is unknown, and therefore it is an alien spacecraft.


This describes your 'by default' view point that, because there are elements of our biological makeup that are as of yet unexplained or sufficiently explored, this leads you to believe that they are prime evidence for creation. Fallacious.

Quote:
 
Confusing currently unexplained with unexplainable: Because we do not currently have an adequate explanation for a phenomenon does not mean that it is forever unexplainable, or that it therefore defies the laws of nature or requires a paranormal explanation. An example of this is the "God of the Gapsâ" strategy of creationists that whatever we cannot currently explain is unexplainable and was therefore an act of god.


Similarly, you seem to be making this mistake.

Finally,
Quote:
 

The human mind is a wonderful thing. We can make new inventions, problem solve, and figure out ways to improve our life. Maybe my brain is inferior to everyone else's, but I just cannot grasp this idea of evolution. How can everything, the birds, the dogs, the animals, the people all come from bacteria that has evolved and became so advanced?
Although knowing your origin is great and all, it shouldn't really be the main issue of the world. There is no way anyone can be 100% sure with one way or the other. I may be what you call one of the 'default' Christians, but I feel strongly about my ideas and refuse to think otherwise. Although you propose a scientifically reasonable point, I still do not think we have evolved from what Darwin's theory claims we have.


1."The human mind is a wonderful thing. We can make new inventions, problem solve, and figure out ways to improve our life."

Indeed it is, and the fact that we can constantly explore it through science is just another by-product of its sheer awesome capability. The view that it is created utterly undermines human achievement, as it infers that our 'creation' has in a sense given us a head start and allowed us to do things based on God's will. We achieve as a species because of the way that nature has developed our brain, a concept that is supported through the evidence that lies before us.

2."but I just cannot grasp this idea of evolution. How can everything, the birds, the dogs, the animals, the people all come from bacteria that has evolved and became so advanced?"

Refer to the previous logical fallacies.

3."Although knowing your origin is great and all, it shouldn't really be the main issue of the world. There is no way anyone can be 100% sure with one way or the other. I may be what you call one of the 'default' Christians, but I feel strongly about my ideas and refuse to think otherwise."

This basically affirms your sheer faithful contradiction. "There is no way anyone can be 100%...I feel strongly about my ideas and refuse to think otherwise." You seem to be 100% sure, and all based on what?

4."Although you propose a scientifically reasonable point, I still do not think we have evolved from what Darwin's theory claims we have."

You're yet to explain why, or rebut logically.
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Dneezy
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You're yet to explain why, or rebut logically.


Dude. Euro, Mars, wtf.
I already resigned from this argument.
I realized my points weren't that strong and said myself that;

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Maybe my brain is inferior to everyone else's, but I just cannot grasp this idea of evolution.

Is that not enough?
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European Son
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Dneezy
May 13 2007, 03:45 PM
Quote:
 
You're yet to explain why, or rebut logically.


Dude. Euro, Mars, wtf.
I already resigned from this argument.
I realized my points weren't that strong and said myself that;

Quote:
 
Maybe my brain is inferior to everyone else's, but I just cannot grasp this idea of evolution.

Is that not enough?

Okay then, but the point of this discussion was for you to at least attempt to grasp science, rather than assume otherwise. This "I can't really be bothered" attitude is dangerous, most especially when people argue against everything they can't grasp.
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Arkan
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Through time things change. If you begin to comprehend time, maybe you will start to understand evolution.

I believe in evolution and i am a little rattled by what Dneezy said about it not being logical. Tell me what is "logical" about creationism.
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Mr. Awesome
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tl;dr :P

One vote for Creation please. I believe that God created us, and pushed us towards evolution, although I wouldn't call it evolution.
Guess what! I'm writing a book called Nuclear Winter!
giggleguy
 
That's a pretty stupid thing to say.
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Dneezy
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Arkan
May 13 2007, 07:51 PM
I believe in evolution and i am a little rattled by what Dneezy said about it not being logical. Tell me what is "logical" about creationism.

Since you -and everyone else- want to keep asking me questions after I dropped out, I will try my best to answer this. Do any of you think it is strange that there is no Science to prove that there is in fact a god, yet millions of people believe there is one? You see, religion is where science stops, and faith takes over. People have faith that there is a god, and that is why religion is so strong. Is religion true? I have no F***ing idea. Do I have faith? Yes.
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Mr. Awesome
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^
Excellent
Guess what! I'm writing a book called Nuclear Winter!
giggleguy
 
That's a pretty stupid thing to say.
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